Why illegalizing guns will not work in the U.S

[AMMO Kid]

Killers and thugs will get guns regardless of whether or not they are made illegal. I want a gun to protect my family from those killers and thugs. Plain and simple.

 

[Dangit2019]

-wonka-

Again, I'm going to slap this one on here.

Isn't that almost exactly what the guy in China did?

OT: For all of you saying that we could enforce a gun ban because we have a shitload of policemen, you should probably notice that a lot of policemen are just as gun-obsessed and conservative as the general populous and they won't be willing to turn in the ones they personally own...

 

[FiveSpeedf150]

With the cost of shipping buying a box online will usually be more expensive than an in-store purchase.

Now, buying ammo by the case (1k rounds) makes a lot more sense, economically... and yeah there are plenty of shooters who may grab 6k rounds at a time if they sense a deal.

And no, they shouldn't be put on a government list somewhere for it.

 

[Your Gaffer]

While I have no real objectivity on America's constitution, given I've never been there. But a refusal to change is refusal to grow. Society changes, nothing stays the same and we have to accomodate.

The right to bare arms was back when muskets were used, I think they would have rethought that right if they knew how powerful firearms have become.

Gradual change should be welcomed. Staying in the past is counter-productive. I'm not trying to start a debate, just stating.

The bottom line is the it is currently politically impossible to ban gun ownership in America. We have a constitutional right to bear arms and the government can not enforce a law that is unconstitutional.

Original Post: Banning Guns won't work so sayeth the man who read a book! Hear his wisdom.

EDIT: Nevermind.

So,
1. The founding fathers probably new guns would get better as time went on. There own guns and munitions where much improved on weapons of the past and they were well aware of continued technical progression of weapons. They had some firearms as accurate as modern firearms.

2. Their is no refusal to change overall, the US has changed a lot about its laws, spending priorities, tax rates, and social mores over the last 50 years. That being said...

It does not matter whether any of us think banning guns is a good thing or not, it just is not going to happen in the US in my lifetime. That is political reality. I don't own guns and I don't really have a strong opinion about it. But that is the truth. The best they will do is pass legislation that has been passed before and will accomplish nothing.

 

[Dumoras]

I'll have to repeat myself from your other topic, because my point still stands.

Ban all guns! Ignore the fact that there are literally millions, if not billions, of guns in the U.S., a good deal of which are in the hands of private owners! The U.K. did it! Never mind the fact that the U.K. has about a quarter of the population and 2 percent of the area. If one country can do it, every country can!

Yes! Lets have ANOTHER prohibition. That will most definitely decrease shootings.
That bill would never get past the house or congress and would literally be unconstitutional. Also do have any idea what a mass ban on weapons would do to the us economy? Let alone the worlds?
If you want gun control use sensibility not knee jerk reactions that don't solve the problem.

 

[el derpenburgo]

Killers and thugs will get guns regardless of whether or not they are made illegal. I want a gun to protect my family from those killers and thugs. Plain and simple.

I've heard somewhere that the majority of gun-related crime in the US arises from domestic disputes rather than gang violence or thugs. For every 1 in 10 use of the gun that involved defending a family or loved one, there are 9 emotionally damaged people who go nuts because their wives were unfaithful, their friends betrayed them, or whatever and do something they'll regret. I would argue that it's a pretty steep price to pay for the privilege of having relaxed gun laws. What's wrong with a taser or another non-lethal option? Surely they are just as effective in a defensive capacity?

 

[invadergir]

They took away slaves and it was part of the cause for a civil war.

Cause you know, civil wars are awesome ways to keep people from dieing il tell ya what! /sarcasm

I'm hoping the sarcasm was related to the former point and not the latter.

I'm just trying to make sure, however. You are, of course, aware that slaves were not taken away prior to the Civil War, and in fact Lincoln didn't want to free the slaves and didn't like the idea of the "negro" having the same rights as us, right?

You are also aware that the Civil War had a lot of social and economic roots which were more the issue than slavery ever was, right?

I'm hoping you are, because the alternative is that you're completely wrong on history and your sarcasm is directed at the notion that I'm speaking of actions that led to war and thus tacitly supporting it.

The social and economic issue was slavery. States-rights vs federal, free-states vs slave-states in the new territories (as it related to voting power), agricultural economies vs industrialism. All of it is rooted in the ability of the Southern states to keep slaves.

 

[Aur0ra145]

Some of you have read this, but most of you haven't.

"By LTC(Ret.) Dave Grossman, Ranger,
Ph.D., author of "On Killing"

Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always, even death itself. The question remains:
What is worth defending?
What is worth dying for?
What is worth living for?
- William J. Bennett - in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me: "Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident."

This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another. Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation.

They are sheep. I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me, it is like the pretty, blue robin?s egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful. For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep.

There is no safety in denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf." If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed.

Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids' schools. But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of times more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their child is just too hard, and so they chose the path of denial.

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheepdog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours. Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports, in camouflage fatigues, holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa." Until the wolf shows up.

Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.

The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them.


This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door.


Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt differently about their law enforcement officers and military personnel? Remember how many times you heard the word hero? Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle.

The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed, right along with the young ones.

Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, "Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference." When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into "warriorhood", you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference. There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, but he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that he is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the population.

There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious, predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language: Slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able to protect itself. Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most people can choose which one they want to be, and I'm proud to say that more and more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs.

Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When he learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered the words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe was a signal to the other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers - athletes, business people and parents. - from sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground.

There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men. - Edmund Burke - Here is the point I like to emphasize, especially to the thousands of police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep.

Sheepdogs are born that way, and so are wolves. They didn't have a choice.

But you are not a critter. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be. It is a conscious, moral decision. If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay, but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door.

For example, many police officers carry their weapons in church. They are well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or inside-the-belt holsters tucked into the small of their backs. Anytime you go to some form of religious service, there is a very good chance that a police officer in your congregation is carrying a weapon. You will never know if there is such an individual in your place of worship, until the wolf appears to massacre you and your loved ones.

I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church. The other cop replied, "I will never be caught without my gun in church." I asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me about a cop he knew who was at a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas in 1999. In that incident, a mentally deranged individual came into the church and opened fire, gunning down fourteen people. He said that officer believed he could have saved every life that day if he had been carrying his gun. His own son was shot, and all he could do was throw himself on the boy's body and wait to die. That cop looked me in the eye and said, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after that?"

Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and would probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be enraged and would call for "heads to roll" if they found out that the airbags in their cars were defective, or that the fire extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their kids' school did not work. They can accept the fact that fires and traffic accidents can happen and that there must be safeguards against them. Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog quietly asks himself, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself if your loved ones were attacked and killed, and you had to stand there helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?"

It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and horror when the wolf shows up. Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth when you are not physically prepared: you didn't bring your gun, you didn?t train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a strategy. Denial kills you a second time because even if you do physically survive, you are psychologically shattered by your fear, helplessness and horror at your moment of truth.

Gavin de Becker puts it like this in "Fear Less", his superb post-9/11 book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to come to terms with our current world situation: "...denial can be seductive, but it has an insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers think they get by saying it isn't so, the fall they take when faced with new violence is all the more unsettling." Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely in small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the truth on some level. And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in all aspects of his life, and prepare himself for the day when evil comes. If you are warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on" 24/7, for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself..."Baa."

This business of being a sheep or a sheepdog is not a yes-no dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-sand-sheep and on the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the other. Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and the warriors started taking their job more seriously. The degree to which you move up that continuum, away from "sheephood" and denial, is the degree to which you and your loved ones will survive, physically and psychologically at your moment of truth."

---

I am a sheepdog, I carry everyday and pray to God I will never have to discharge my weapon against an individual. But that day may come, and if it does, I will be ready. People will always have the propensity for evil, though, I believe humanity is inherently good. But to believe that we will be safe via certain laws is ludicrous. Take charge of your life, be the captain of your own soul and go out to ensure good among all. The only way to rid the world of human violence is to rid the existence of humanity. Evil will find a way, it always does, denying that it will happen will only leave us living in fear.

 

[invadergir]

Some of you have read this, but most of you haven't.

"By LTC(Ret.) Dave Grossman, Ranger,
Ph.D., author of "On Killing"

Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always, even death itself. The question remains:
What is worth defending?
What is worth dying for?
What is worth living for?
- William J. Bennett - in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me: "Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident."

This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another. Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation.

They are sheep. I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me, it is like the pretty, blue robin?s egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful. For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep.

There is no safety in denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf." If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed.

snip

So the reason you think we should have few restrictions on guns, is because of some sort of wishful hero complex?

I do know that dealing with the mental strain of being involved in a firefight is something that is drilled into police and soldiers for years and even they struggle with making those life-and-death decisions. How can you say that the average armed citizen would fare better, or in the very least, not make the situation worse?

 

[Aur0ra145]

Some of you have read this, but most of you haven't.

"By LTC(Ret.) Dave Grossman, Ranger,
Ph.D., author of "On Killing"

Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always, even death itself. The question remains:
What is worth defending?
What is worth dying for?
What is worth living for?
- William J. Bennett - in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me: "Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident."

This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another. Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation.

They are sheep. I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me, it is like the pretty, blue robin?s egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful. For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep.

There is no safety in denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf." If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed.

snip

So the reason you think we should have few restrictions on guns, is because of some sort of wishful hero complex?

I do know that dealing with the mental strain of being involved in a firefight is something that is drilled into police and soldiers for years and even they struggle with making those life-and-death decisions. How can you say that the average armed citizen would fare better, or in the very least, not make the situation worse?

Would your rather have 20 dead children or one teacher that has difficulty dealing with the fact that they shot someone?

 

[invadergir]

Some of you have read this, but most of you haven't.

"By LTC(Ret.) Dave Grossman, Ranger,
Ph.D., author of "On Killing"

Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always, even death itself. The question remains:
What is worth defending?
What is worth dying for?
What is worth living for?
- William J. Bennett - in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me: "Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident."

This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another. Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation.

They are sheep. I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me, it is like the pretty, blue robin?s egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful. For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep.

There is no safety in denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf." If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed.

snip

So the reason you think we should have few restrictions on guns, is because of some sort of wishful hero complex?

I do know that dealing with the mental strain of being involved in a firefight is something that is drilled into police and soldiers for years and even they struggle with making those life-and-death decisions. How can you say that the average armed citizen would fare better, or in the very least, not make the situation worse?

Would your rather have 20 dead children or one teacher that has difficulty dealing with the fact that they shot someone?

That totally answered my question.

And good luck finding a teacher with the mental fortitude and skill to put down a guy with an AR and body armor.

 

[Aur0ra145]

Some of you have read this, but most of you haven't.

"By LTC(Ret.) Dave Grossman, Ranger,
Ph.D., author of "On Killing"

Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always, even death itself. The question remains:
What is worth defending?
What is worth dying for?
What is worth living for?
- William J. Bennett - in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me: "Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident."

This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another. Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation.

They are sheep. I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me, it is like the pretty, blue robin?s egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful. For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep.

There is no safety in denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf." If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed.

snip

So the reason you think we should have few restrictions on guns, is because of some sort of wishful hero complex?

I do know that dealing with the mental strain of being involved in a firefight is something that is drilled into police and soldiers for years and even they struggle with making those life-and-death decisions. How can you say that the average armed citizen would fare better, or in the very least, not make the situation worse?

Would your rather have 20 dead children or one teacher that has difficulty dealing with the fact that they shot someone?

That totally answered my question.

And good luck finding a teacher with the mental fortitude and skill to put down a guy with an AR and body armor.

http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html

Yep, because everyone starts sending rounds down range.

I do know teachers that would carry if they were allowed to. Hell, I know teachers that carried because they were able to (and oddly, it was against the law.) Many of these teachers were ex-military and ex-law enforcement or just people that would rather dictate how their life went, rather than giving that to some one else. We do have sheepdogs in society that have the ability to prevail in those times of strife. Lumping teachers into a group of "sheep" is dishonest at best.

Stop living in denial. We live in a violent world, dismissing the fact that evil exists, and that good men and women can fight against it will help no one.

 

[invadergir]

Some of you have read this, but most of you haven't.

"By LTC(Ret.) Dave Grossman, Ranger,
Ph.D., author of "On Killing"

Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always, even death itself. The question remains:
What is worth defending?
What is worth dying for?
What is worth living for?
- William J. Bennett - in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me: "Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident."

This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another. Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation.

They are sheep. I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me, it is like the pretty, blue robin?s egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful. For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep.

There is no safety in denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf." If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed.

snip

So the reason you think we should have few restrictions on guns, is because of some sort of wishful hero complex?

I do know that dealing with the mental strain of being involved in a firefight is something that is drilled into police and soldiers for years and even they struggle with making those life-and-death decisions. How can you say that the average armed citizen would fare better, or in the very least, not make the situation worse?

Would your rather have 20 dead children or one teacher that has difficulty dealing with the fact that they shot someone?

That totally answered my question.

And good luck finding a teacher with the mental fortitude and skill to put down a guy with an AR and body armor.

http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html

Yep, because everyone starts sending rounds down range.

I do know teachers that would carry if they were allowed to. Hell, I know teachers that carried because they were able to (and oddly, it was against the law.) Many of these teachers were ex-military and ex-law enforcement or just people that would rather dictate how their life went, rather than giving that to some one else. We do have sheepdogs in society that have the ability to prevail in those times of strife. Lumping teachers into a group of "sheep" is dishonest at best.

Stop living in denial. We live in a violent world, dismissing the fact that evil exists, and that good men and women can fight against it will help no one.

I don't lump teachers into your sheep category because I reject your theory of there being 3 types of people.

As a gun owner and former military who has never been in a fire-fight, I honestly don't know how I would react. But your gung-ho hero complex is not a good reason for there not to be gun control.

 

[Aur0ra145]

Some of you have read this, but most of you haven't.

"By LTC(Ret.) Dave Grossman, Ranger,
Ph.D., author of "On Killing"

Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always, even death itself. The question remains:
What is worth defending?
What is worth dying for?
What is worth living for?
- William J. Bennett - in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me: "Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident."

This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another. Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation.

They are sheep. I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me, it is like the pretty, blue robin?s egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful. For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep.

There is no safety in denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf." If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed.

snip

So the reason you think we should have few restrictions on guns, is because of some sort of wishful hero complex?

I do know that dealing with the mental strain of being involved in a firefight is something that is drilled into police and soldiers for years and even they struggle with making those life-and-death decisions. How can you say that the average armed citizen would fare better, or in the very least, not make the situation worse?

Would your rather have 20 dead children or one teacher that has difficulty dealing with the fact that they shot someone?

That totally answered my question.

And good luck finding a teacher with the mental fortitude and skill to put down a guy with an AR and body armor.

http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html

Yep, because everyone starts sending rounds down range.

I do know teachers that would carry if they were allowed to. Hell, I know teachers that carried because they were able to (and oddly, it was against the law.) Many of these teachers were ex-military and ex-law enforcement or just people that would rather dictate how their life went, rather than giving that to some one else. We do have sheepdogs in society that have the ability to prevail in those times of strife. Lumping teachers into a group of "sheep" is dishonest at best.

Stop living in denial. We live in a violent world, dismissing the fact that evil exists, and that good men and women can fight against it will help no one.

I don't lump teachers into your sheep category because I reject your theory of there being 3 types of people.

As a gun owner and former military who has never been in a fire-fight, I honestly don't know how I would react. But your gung-ho hero complex is not a good reason for there not to be gun control.

Why are we gung-ho? I don't actively walk around bad parts of town looking for a fight. Though, if that fight comes to my doorstep, I'll be ready. Do you disagree with being ready to fight those that come knocking on your door?

 

[invadergir]

Some of you have read this, but most of you haven't.

"By LTC(Ret.) Dave Grossman, Ranger,
Ph.D., author of "On Killing"

Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always, even death itself. The question remains:
What is worth defending?
What is worth dying for?
What is worth living for?
- William J. Bennett - in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me: "Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident."

This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another. Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation.

They are sheep. I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me, it is like the pretty, blue robin?s egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful. For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep.

There is no safety in denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf." If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed.

snip

So the reason you think we should have few restrictions on guns, is because of some sort of wishful hero complex?

I do know that dealing with the mental strain of being involved in a firefight is something that is drilled into police and soldiers for years and even they struggle with making those life-and-death decisions. How can you say that the average armed citizen would fare better, or in the very least, not make the situation worse?

Would your rather have 20 dead children or one teacher that has difficulty dealing with the fact that they shot someone?

That totally answered my question.

And good luck finding a teacher with the mental fortitude and skill to put down a guy with an AR and body armor.

http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html

Yep, because everyone starts sending rounds down range.

I do know teachers that would carry if they were allowed to. Hell, I know teachers that carried because they were able to (and oddly, it was against the law.) Many of these teachers were ex-military and ex-law enforcement or just people that would rather dictate how their life went, rather than giving that to some one else. We do have sheepdogs in society that have the ability to prevail in those times of strife. Lumping teachers into a group of "sheep" is dishonest at best.

Stop living in denial. We live in a violent world, dismissing the fact that evil exists, and that good men and women can fight against it will help no one.

I don't lump teachers into your sheep category because I reject your theory of there being 3 types of people.

As a gun owner and former military who has never been in a fire-fight, I honestly don't know how I would react. But your gung-ho hero complex is not a good reason for there not to be gun control.

Why are we gung-ho? I don't actively walk around bad parts of town looking for a fight. Though, if that fight comes to my doorstep, I'll be ready. To you disagree with being ready to fight those that come knocking on your door?

When did we move in this argument from thwarting a shooting to defending our homestead? The 3 categories of people article talks about the hero response vs being a sheeple. BTW, your smartest move as a gun carrier is to hunker down and remove your family to safety, if possible. Running toward the fray is just plain stupid.

 

[Aur0ra145]

Some of you have read this, but most of you haven't.

"By LTC(Ret.) Dave Grossman, Ranger,
Ph.D., author of "On Killing"

Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always, even death itself. The question remains:
What is worth defending?
What is worth dying for?
What is worth living for?
- William J. Bennett - in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me: "Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident."

This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another. Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation.

They are sheep. I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me, it is like the pretty, blue robin?s egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful. For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep.

There is no safety in denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf." If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed.

snip

So the reason you think we should have few restrictions on guns, is because of some sort of wishful hero complex?

I do know that dealing with the mental strain of being involved in a firefight is something that is drilled into police and soldiers for years and even they struggle with making those life-and-death decisions. How can you say that the average armed citizen would fare better, or in the very least, not make the situation worse?

Would your rather have 20 dead children or one teacher that has difficulty dealing with the fact that they shot someone?

That totally answered my question.

And good luck finding a teacher with the mental fortitude and skill to put down a guy with an AR and body armor.

http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html

Yep, because everyone starts sending rounds down range.

I do know teachers that would carry if they were allowed to. Hell, I know teachers that carried because they were able to (and oddly, it was against the law.) Many of these teachers were ex-military and ex-law enforcement or just people that would rather dictate how their life went, rather than giving that to some one else. We do have sheepdogs in society that have the ability to prevail in those times of strife. Lumping teachers into a group of "sheep" is dishonest at best.

Stop living in denial. We live in a violent world, dismissing the fact that evil exists, and that good men and women can fight against it will help no one.

I don't lump teachers into your sheep category because I reject your theory of there being 3 types of people.

As a gun owner and former military who has never been in a fire-fight, I honestly don't know how I would react. But your gung-ho hero complex is not a good reason for there not to be gun control.

Why are we gung-ho? I don't actively walk around bad parts of town looking for a fight. Though, if that fight comes to my doorstep, I'll be ready. To you disagree with being ready to fight those that come knocking on your door?

When did we move in this argument from thwarting a shooting to defending our homestead? The 3 categories of people article talks about the hero response vs being a sheeple. BTW, your smartest move as a gun carrier is to hunker down and remove your family to safety, if possible. Running toward the fray is just plain stupid.

True, the best way for my family to survive is to get them out. But how would that work in a movie theater? Our best chance of survival is to return fire and leave. Would you rather be able to defender your loved ones with equal force or not?

 

[DonTsetsi]

Some of you have read this, but most of you haven't.

"By LTC(Ret.) Dave Grossman, Ranger,
Ph.D., author of "On Killing"

Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always, even death itself. The question remains:
What is worth defending?
What is worth dying for?
What is worth living for?
- William J. Bennett - in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me: "Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident."

This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another. Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation.

They are sheep. I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me, it is like the pretty, blue robin?s egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful. For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep.

There is no safety in denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf." If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed.

snip

So the reason you think we should have few restrictions on guns, is because of some sort of wishful hero complex?

I do know that dealing with the mental strain of being involved in a firefight is something that is drilled into police and soldiers for years and even they struggle with making those life-and-death decisions. How can you say that the average armed citizen would fare better, or in the very least, not make the situation worse?

Would your rather have 20 dead children or one teacher that has difficulty dealing with the fact that they shot someone?

That totally answered my question.

And good luck finding a teacher with the mental fortitude and skill to put down a guy with an AR and body armor.

http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html

Yep, because everyone starts sending rounds down range.

I do know teachers that would carry if they were allowed to. Hell, I know teachers that carried because they were able to (and oddly, it was against the law.) Many of these teachers were ex-military and ex-law enforcement or just people that would rather dictate how their life went, rather than giving that to some one else. We do have sheepdogs in society that have the ability to prevail in those times of strife. Lumping teachers into a group of "sheep" is dishonest at best.

Stop living in denial. We live in a violent world, dismissing the fact that evil exists, and that good men and women can fight against it will help no one.

So, you'd rather have 1 teacher trying to stop a criminal and 20 teachers shooting a child or allowing one to get a hold of a gun by accident? You should never carry firearms around small children. I really hope you are sarcastic and I just missed it.

 

[Aur0ra145]

Some of you have read this, but most of you haven't.

"By LTC(Ret.) Dave Grossman, Ranger,
Ph.D., author of "On Killing"

Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always, even death itself. The question remains:
What is worth defending?
What is worth dying for?
What is worth living for?
- William J. Bennett - in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me: "Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident."

This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another. Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation.

They are sheep. I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me, it is like the pretty, blue robin?s egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful. For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep.

There is no safety in denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf." If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed.

snip

So the reason you think we should have few restrictions on guns, is because of some sort of wishful hero complex?

I do know that dealing with the mental strain of being involved in a firefight is something that is drilled into police and soldiers for years and even they struggle with making those life-and-death decisions. How can you say that the average armed citizen would fare better, or in the very least, not make the situation worse?

Would your rather have 20 dead children or one teacher that has difficulty dealing with the fact that they shot someone?

That totally answered my question.

And good luck finding a teacher with the mental fortitude and skill to put down a guy with an AR and body armor.

http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html

Yep, because everyone starts sending rounds down range.

I do know teachers that would carry if they were allowed to. Hell, I know teachers that carried because they were able to (and oddly, it was against the law.) Many of these teachers were ex-military and ex-law enforcement or just people that would rather dictate how their life went, rather than giving that to some one else. We do have sheepdogs in society that have the ability to prevail in those times of strife. Lumping teachers into a group of "sheep" is dishonest at best.

Stop living in denial. We live in a violent world, dismissing the fact that evil exists, and that good men and women can fight against it will help no one.

So, you'd rather have 1 teacher trying to stop a criminal and 20 teachers shooting a child or allowing one to get a hold of a gun by accident? You should never carry firearms around small children. I really hope you are sarcastic and I just missed it.

So you're denying the argument, cool. Do you carry? Have you ever carried a firearm in public? How would a 6 year old take possession of your gun and kill others? Ever trained with firearm retention? Let's look at it this way, how many times have a 6 year old extracted your phone from your pocket and started texting people without your knowledge.

Get real.

 

[invadergir]

Some of you have read this, but most of you haven't.

"By LTC(Ret.) Dave Grossman, Ranger,
Ph.D., author of "On Killing"

Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always, even death itself. The question remains:
What is worth defending?
What is worth dying for?
What is worth living for?
- William J. Bennett - in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me: "Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident."

This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another. Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation.

They are sheep. I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me, it is like the pretty, blue robin?s egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful. For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep.

There is no safety in denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf." If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed.

snip

So the reason you think we should have few restrictions on guns, is because of some sort of wishful hero complex?

I do know that dealing with the mental strain of being involved in a firefight is something that is drilled into police and soldiers for years and even they struggle with making those life-and-death decisions. How can you say that the average armed citizen would fare better, or in the very least, not make the situation worse?

Would your rather have 20 dead children or one teacher that has difficulty dealing with the fact that they shot someone?

That totally answered my question.

And good luck finding a teacher with the mental fortitude and skill to put down a guy with an AR and body armor.

http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html

Yep, because everyone starts sending rounds down range.

I do know teachers that would carry if they were allowed to. Hell, I know teachers that carried because they were able to (and oddly, it was against the law.) Many of these teachers were ex-military and ex-law enforcement or just people that would rather dictate how their life went, rather than giving that to some one else. We do have sheepdogs in society that have the ability to prevail in those times of strife. Lumping teachers into a group of "sheep" is dishonest at best.

Stop living in denial. We live in a violent world, dismissing the fact that evil exists, and that good men and women can fight against it will help no one.

I don't lump teachers into your sheep category because I reject your theory of there being 3 types of people.

As a gun owner and former military who has never been in a fire-fight, I honestly don't know how I would react. But your gung-ho hero complex is not a good reason for there not to be gun control.

Why are we gung-ho? I don't actively walk around bad parts of town looking for a fight. Though, if that fight comes to my doorstep, I'll be ready. To you disagree with being ready to fight those that come knocking on your door?

When did we move in this argument from thwarting a shooting to defending our homestead? The 3 categories of people article talks about the hero response vs being a sheeple. BTW, your smartest move as a gun carrier is to hunker down and remove your family to safety, if possible. Running toward the fray is just plain stupid.

True, the best way for my family to survive is to get them out. But how would that work in a movie theater? Our best chance of survival is to return fire and leave. Would you rather be able to defender your loved ones with equal force or not?

Return fire? How would you know who was shooting at who? How would other gun-carriers and first-responders not confuse you as the original threat?

Police struggle with this even though they have years of training, and yet you think the average citizen can process all this information and make the best decisions?

 

[Aur0ra145]

Some of you have read this, but most of you haven't.

"By LTC(Ret.) Dave Grossman, Ranger,
Ph.D., author of "On Killing"

Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always, even death itself. The question remains:
What is worth defending?
What is worth dying for?
What is worth living for?
- William J. Bennett - in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me: "Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident."

This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another. Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation.

They are sheep. I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me, it is like the pretty, blue robin?s egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful. For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep.

There is no safety in denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf." If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed.

snip

So the reason you think we should have few restrictions on guns, is because of some sort of wishful hero complex?

I do know that dealing with the mental strain of being involved in a firefight is something that is drilled into police and soldiers for years and even they struggle with making those life-and-death decisions. How can you say that the average armed citizen would fare better, or in the very least, not make the situation worse?

Would your rather have 20 dead children or one teacher that has difficulty dealing with the fact that they shot someone?

That totally answered my question.

And good luck finding a teacher with the mental fortitude and skill to put down a guy with an AR and body armor.

http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html

Yep, because everyone starts sending rounds down range.

I do know teachers that would carry if they were allowed to. Hell, I know teachers that carried because they were able to (and oddly, it was against the law.) Many of these teachers were ex-military and ex-law enforcement or just people that would rather dictate how their life went, rather than giving that to some one else. We do have sheepdogs in society that have the ability to prevail in those times of strife. Lumping teachers into a group of "sheep" is dishonest at best.

Stop living in denial. We live in a violent world, dismissing the fact that evil exists, and that good men and women can fight against it will help no one.

I don't lump teachers into your sheep category because I reject your theory of there being 3 types of people.

As a gun owner and former military who has never been in a fire-fight, I honestly don't know how I would react. But your gung-ho hero complex is not a good reason for there not to be gun control.

Why are we gung-ho? I don't actively walk around bad parts of town looking for a fight. Though, if that fight comes to my doorstep, I'll be ready. To you disagree with being ready to fight those that come knocking on your door?

When did we move in this argument from thwarting a shooting to defending our homestead? The 3 categories of people article talks about the hero response vs being a sheeple. BTW, your smartest move as a gun carrier is to hunker down and remove your family to safety, if possible. Running toward the fray is just plain stupid.

True, the best way for my family to survive is to get them out. But how would that work in a movie theater? Our best chance of survival is to return fire and leave. Would you rather be able to defender your loved ones with equal force or not?

Return fire? How would you know who was shooting at who? How would other gun-carriers and first-responders not confuse you as the original threat?

Police struggle with this even though they have years of training, and yet you think the average citizen can process all this information and make the best decisions?

Cool, so if someone in body armour, carrying an AR-15 and shooting at people is easily confused with a normal non carrying member of society?

Seriously, think. If I get shot by the first responders from law enforcement when I'm trying to defend others from an active shooter, that's okay with me. They are doing their job. As I believe, I am as well defending others. If law enforcement kills a good guy going after the bad guys, that's alright. But has that ever happened? In my research, it never has...