Why is it in American culture, if you value time more than money you are considered lazy?

[isometry]

But the point of this thread is this: anytime I made a comment about my long hours to people in my life or on internet forums, I was told to stop being "lazy". My family and friends said that because I was young, I didn't have any other responsibilities and should work extra hard. If I wanted to get ahead, I needed to "put in my dues" during my twenties. When I mentioned becoming a school teacher, I was laughed at and admonished.

This culture of work and money can really get exhausting sometimes and wear you down. But I can't even mention this kind of stuff outside the anonymity of the internet, lest I get blacklisted in my profession and ridiculed by my peers.

I'm sure you know there are skilled jobs with decent salaries that give you a lot more free time then you are describing, with minimal retraining.

It sounds like you are need of affirmation that working less so you can have more free time is a respectable and good choice. You're not getting that affirmation because your family, friends, and peers are not supporting that idea.

I can tell my story, which is that by age 18 I knew I didn't need much money to be happy, so in college I followed my interests in physics without much concern for a practical career (I figured I could always teach as a backup plan). That led me to "useless" subjects like theoretical physics, pure mathematics, and philosophy that enriched my life greatly. I did well not because of "intelligence" (I'd never shown an aptitude for math in high school), but because I was so interested in the academic subjects that I studied them for fun. That led to me going to graduate school, and now I'm a research scientist getting paid well enough to save 1/2 of my salary after expenses (single, no kids), and even though I work about 40 hours a week it's on my own schedule, and I enjoy what I do enough that it often doesn't feel like work.

It's hard to meet people who will support your new path properly. The truth is, a lot of folks out there are just lazy and unambitious, and fill their non-working days with degenerative recreation. Fortunately, working out these issues does not require a companion, it can be done by reading great authors. The most directly appropriate is Thoreau, who spent two years living in austerity in the woods and writes a lot about the downside of unnecessary work, beyond what is needed for survival. He is good to read in quotes, or you can read his main work on the subject here:

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~hyper/walden/hdt01.html

"A man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to let alone."

"I had three pieces of limestone on my desk, but I was terrified to find that they required to be dusted daily, when the furniture of my mind was all undusted still, and threw them out the window in disgust."

Thoreau is more of a poet than a philosopher, but that makes him more accessible, and they make some gorgeous coffee-table books of his quotes that you could give to family and friends to maybe cause them to think differently about your new path.

If you want to read more, Aristotle and Marx thought a lot about how our work relates to our happiness in life. Here's Aristotle:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicomachean_Ethics

and here's Marx:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx's_theory_of_alienation

 

[Mau95]

FRANCE? THE FUDGE?! People in France work hard too, ya know! And the whole "third world people would be happ" thing annoys me greatly. The only reason is because they dont generally have jobs or just really crappy ones. Why do people mock you if you want to be a teacher? In ten years my country will be out of teachers! You can come work over here.

 

[Smooth Operator]

Well that is the current rising capitalist culture, a man is only worth the size of his wallet.

I've seen 3 married couples in the neighborhood fall apart the moment money was an issue, real dedication in those relationships...
And the last few dates were persistently and ever so subtly all trying to sniff out my net worth, this shit is getting fucking scary.

 

[Valanthe]

I had a similar argument with my boss, and later my parents, when I quit my last job. Long story short, I was sick of getting bent over the counter simply because I was "lower on the totem pole," so I left, I'm currently unemployed but I'm single and saved a bunch of money before I left my job, and you now what? I couldn't be happier. I know eventually I'll have to find a new job, but hell, how many people these days can honestly say they've taken a three month vacation?

If that makes me lazy, then fuck 'em, guess who's smiling at 8am when I'm strapping my ski boots on, and they're clocking into work.

 

[Thistlehart]

Ultimately, many people don't realize that time is more valuable than money. The seconds of one's life are finite in the extreme, and ultimately there is no telling when they be cut short.

As a previous poster has mentioned, much of the negative reaction to your idea comes from indoctrination. People who have, in the past, undergone some variant of what you have been through, and will set themselves on fire if no one else has to (this is also known as bitterness).

I work hard every day for just over minimum wage. I have a college degree and no one will hire me in my field because I "don't have enough experience." I know where you're coming from.

Also, why is someone who labors under the burden of a family considered more valuable than someone who is free of such encumbrance? Especially when, in this day and age, most of those "families" are accidents anyway. Ultimately these people will have more days out due to family issues than singles. So why are they given special consideration for the simple act of spawning more mouths to feed (an act which, by and large, requires absolutely no proficiency in anything other than tab A into slot B and a lack of understanding concerning rubber)?

 

[spartandude]

you know what i completely agree with the op, theres no point in getting the money if you can almost never enjoy it

however im in a situation with due to the lack of jobs in my area (was forced to leave college due to ill health) so ive been a neet (not in employment, education or training)for two months and i can get a job, all jobs that are avaliable (which still reject me) are very low pay so the only way i can actually live comfortably would be to work two jobs, actually no not comfortably just less painfully, if id be lucky to get them and thats if the stress of working those jobs doesnt cause my depression to kill me like it would have if i stayed at college

 

[Warforger]

You are living in a third world shithole, it seems

Agreed. Personally, I've always thought the "third-world" term should be either reevaluated or thrown out completely. Economic disparity is really a better evaluation of the functioning of a society than per capita GDP, a measure I find ridiculous.

I don't know why the word "third world" is even used to reference poor countries because the term references Cold War-Alliances, NATO and friends was first world, the USSR and friends was second world, and everyone else was 3rd world. I know that "everyone else" is also pretty impoverished for the most part but they're not all and the term doesn't mean to be a poor nation.

The proper terms are "Developed nation, developing nations and undeveloped nations"

But then I also see capitalism/commercialism/etc a method of brainwashing those with less resources to prop up the lifestyles of those with more in such a way that the most obvious form of revolt--however illusory the possibility of upward mobility may be--contributes to the stability of the system. Rather smooth how that works, isn't it? The greatest predictor of success in a modern capitalist society is simply being born into a wealthy family, yet we are all told hard work is all that is necessary to climb the ladder. This attitude is so prevalent to be implicit most of the time. And when you think about it, who does the efforts of the working classes benefit the most? Exactly, those who control the means of production. If it weren't so horrifying, I'd almost find it admirable.

No, it's those with a high demand, that's why doctors and lawyers are so rich because their job security is probably the highest there is since hell people are being prosecuted all the time and they also have medical problems too, and what it takes to get an effective one is a bunch of hard work.

Although yes, it gets pretty frustrating when you never hear too much famous success of people who graduate #1 in their universities, they don't seem to end up the most successful, like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs both dropped out of their university and look how they ended up, I seem to recall a drug dealer who dropped out of 9th grade but due to his experience with a supply and demand system once he got out of jail he was able to make wise decisions in the stock market and what do you know he's a millionaire now running his own company.

I was trying to explain to my mom that more money doesn't mean you're happier, trying to talk me down from becoming a teacher or biologist since "they don't make as much money" and yet I see her smoking (well she quit after a long struggle), constantly stressed out constantly working all day not even home until night to see me. Eventually she agreed with me after much resistance but stuck that you at least need enough to survive (well she came from Bulgaria, where on top of a job in the science department she ran 2 others because the economic conditions were out of control).

Wow, I babble really easily >.>

It's easy to do it if it's about something that you're constantly thinking about something you value.

 

[LetalisK]

Well his immediate supervisor really didn't like this, and told him he was in no position to make an "ultimatum" like this, especially because he was childless and unmarried.

I hope his supervisor got donkey punched for saying stupid shit like that.

But the point of this thread is this: anytime I made a comment about my long hours to people in my life or on internet forums, I was told to stop being "lazy".

....

Online, the criticism was much harsher. Supposedly I was a Marxist socialist who hated capitalism. I was lazy and looking to sponge off of the government. I was told to read Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged. They said if everyone was like me, this country would be nothing more than a giant third-world shithole. I was told multiple times to move to France. I was told to shut up and be grateful I was even employed, because people in India would do my job for a quarter of the wages and double the hours, all with a smile on their faces.

Well...people on the internet are assholes(see above). So take their criticism with a grain of salt.

 

[Griffolion]

My cousin called me a few hours ago and said he got fired today (they always do it on Fridays). He had been working for a very large accounting firm that will remain nameless, and he regularly had to come to the office for a full day on Saturdays, and sometimes a half day on Sundays. Over the past eight months the stress was getting to him, so last week he told his boss that he no longer wanted to work weekends. He offered to restructure his Monday-Friday schedule to make sure he got his work done, but he told them he needed the weekends to unwind. Well his immediate supervisor really didn't like this, and told him he was in no position to make an "ultimatum" like this, especially because he was childless and unmarried. A week later my cousin was "forced to resign" (i.e. terminated) after not coming in the Saturday before.

Before I went to graduate school, I had a job in a very intense work environment after college. I was an analyst who spent about 12-16 hours a day reading little screens with numbers and writing recommendations and analyses for people above me. I didn't have to come in on the weekends because the markets were closed for trading, but the analysts had so much work that if we didn't want to get fired for incompetence, we had to work almost every weekend. That year is an absolute blur to me; I don't remember most of it because ninety percent of the days were the same. I was miserable, but also too afraid to quit a job that paid relatively good money. I was also afraid of disappointing my family. Then, the financial crisis happened in 2009 and I was laid off, which in retrospect was a godsend.

But the point of this thread is this: anytime I made a comment about my long hours to people in my life or on internet forums, I was told to stop being "lazy". My family and friends said that because I was young, I didn't have any other responsibilities and should work extra hard. If I wanted to get ahead, I needed to "put in my dues" during my twenties. When I mentioned becoming a school teacher, I was laughed at and admonished.

Online, the criticism was much harsher. Supposedly I was a Marxist socialist who hated capitalism. I was lazy and looking to sponge off of the government. I was told to read Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged. They said if everyone was like me, this country would be nothing more than a giant third-world shithole. I was told multiple times to move to France. I was told to shut up and be grateful I was even employed, because people in India would do my job for a quarter of the wages and double the hours, all with a smile on their faces.

Is this really all that matters: money and more money? What's the point, just so I can buy more expensive shit I don't have time to use anyway? Growing up, I saw so many people who were stuck in an endless cycle of buying themselves into debt, working hard to pay down the debt, then buying even more. So many people I know absolutely hate their jobs, but they just continue with the grind because the devil they know is less frightening than the one they don't know. And above all, income and net worth are the most prominent ways by which we measure a person's value in American society.

This culture of work and money can really get exhausting sometimes and wear you down. But I can't even mention this kind of stuff outside the anonymity of the internet, lest I get blacklisted in my profession and ridiculed by my peers.

I believe it's called the rat race, and this is simply what results out of a ruthless, performance based culture. And that really goes for any developed country.

I genuinely don't think we should work so hard to the detriment of our spiritual, emotional and mental health. But with everything costing so much these days, how can we not commit the vast majority of our time to work? It's a weird thing.

The only thing I really think about this is: "Do what you like and do it honestly."

Money's only everything if you consider it to be everything.

 

[shroomie]

In an ideal world money shouldn't really exist but unfortunately we aren't in a real world. I dislike the concept of money, it causes far more problems than it solves but I do see the need for it and while Im not a slob I am lazy. Im not above a bit of manual labour or hard work for an honest days wages, I do have a job. Previously I worked 18 hours a week, which might not seem much to most, but I had to balance that between school, homework and other things.

But it is important to take time out for yourself if you feel overworked, there is no point living life miserable and even if you work so much you make tons of money you will never have an oppurtunity to use it to make yourself happy.

 

[toolateforsundown]

I don't know why the word "third world" is even used to reference poor countries because the term references Cold War-Alliances, NATO and friends was first world, the USSR and friends was second world, and everyone else was 3rd world. I know that "everyone else" is also pretty impoverished for the most part but they're not all and the term doesn't mean to be a poor nation.

The proper terms are "Developed nation, developing nations and undeveloped nations"

I considered mentioning that, but it's rather pointless. What meaning of a word is more important, the proper definition one would find in a dictionary or the impression an average person receives? But even the developed/developing/undeveloped system is incredibly ethnocentric and more subjective than I would think necessary. But that's not the point of the thread, is it? ^_^"

No, it's those with a high demand, that's why doctors and lawyers are so rich because their job security is probably the highest there is since hell people are being prosecuted all the time and they also have medical problems too, and what it takes to get an effective one is a bunch of hard work.

I would disagree with the claim of these occupations having the highest job security out there. There have been teachers and maids much longer and in more varied economic environments than there have been doctors or lawyers, at least in the modern sense.

Our opposing points really meet each other halfway. For one thing, I consider medical careers to be a service, and such services operate differently from the economy at large. Sure, they are compensated in a rather capitalistic way, but the philosophy, overall structure, and prestige of such careers have a different flavour. Also, the majority of lawyers work in patents or for similar business interests. No, seriously. They are just as much enslaved to those controlling the means of production as the person cleaning the toilets, they just get a much fancier title and a larger paycheck. And 80-hour workweeks. Which brings us to the same problem the original post put forth: tireless work impeding on one's ability to live a fulfilling life.

 

[Zen Toombs]

As far as I can tell, it's something of a double standard.

On a similar note, I'd like for you to think of the situation for people who use welfare.

Then think of what the situation is for a single mom.

When a number of people think of a "single mom", they think of a woman who is struggling to get by and take care of her children. But when they think of a mother on welfare, those same people think of someone who is leeching from the system and [continuing description on the same lines].

NOTE: Escapists, I am not trying to put words in your mouth, and I do not think I stand for everybody. This is just a thought experiment, and when I have seen others use it I got some of the results I talked about. It was not a scientific study, and I'm not saying that it is.

-Zen Toombs

 

[Dags90]

I hope his supervisor got donkey punched for saying stupid shit like that.

It's an unfortunately rampant problem in the U.S. labor market. It's thought to be one of the less homophobic reasons that gay men are paid less in management jobs. Unmarried unbreeding people don't need to be paid as much because, well just because.

 

[gorfias]

You are living in a third world shithole, it seems

Agreed. Personally, I've always thought the "third-world" term should be either reevaluated or thrown out completely. Economic disparity is really a better evaluation of the functioning of a society than per capita GDP, a measure I find ridiculous.

I don't know why the word "third world" is even used to reference poor countries because the term references Cold War-Alliances, NATO and friends was first world, the USSR and friends was second world, and everyone else was 3rd world. I know that "everyone else" is also pretty impoverished for the most part but they're not all and the term doesn't mean to be a poor nation.

The proper terms are "Developed nation, developing nations and undeveloped nations"

But then I also see capitalism/commercialism/etc a method of brainwashing those with less resources to prop up the lifestyles of those with more in such a way that the most obvious form of revolt--however illusory the possibility of upward mobility may be--contributes to the stability of the system. Rather smooth how that works, isn't it? The greatest predictor of success in a modern capitalist society is simply being born into a wealthy family, yet we are all told hard work is all that is necessary to climb the ladder. This attitude is so prevalent to be implicit most of the time. And when you think about it, who does the efforts of the working classes benefit the most? Exactly, those who control the means of production. If it weren't so horrifying, I'd almost find it admirable.

No, it's those with a high demand, that's why doctors and lawyers are so rich because their job security is probably the highest there is since hell people are being prosecuted all the time and they also have medical problems too, and what it takes to get an effective one is a bunch of hard work.

Although yes, it gets pretty frustrating when you never hear too much famous success of people who graduate #1 in their universities, they don't seem to end up the most successful, like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs both dropped out of their university and look how they ended up, I seem to recall a drug dealer who dropped out of 9th grade but due to his experience with a supply and demand system once he got out of jail he was able to make wise decisions in the stock market and what do you know he's a millionaire now running his own company.

I was trying to explain to my mom that more money doesn't mean you're happier, trying to talk me down from becoming a teacher or biologist since "they don't make as much money" and yet I see her smoking (well she quit after a long struggle), constantly stressed out constantly working all day not even home until night to see me. Eventually she agreed with me after much resistance but stuck that you at least need enough to survive (well she came from Bulgaria, where on top of a job in the science department she ran 2 others because the economic conditions were out of control).

Wow, I babble really easily >.>

It's easy to do it if it's about something that you're constantly thinking about something you value.

snip

Dunno how I got dragged into this one, but I'll bite

It is true that one of the best predictors of wealth is the economic class you were born into. That is worrisome. If you were born in the lower class, does that mean working within the system is for suckers?

And the race is not won by the swift. We all know, as you reference, Bill Gates and Steve Jobs. But do you know the names of the people that invented packet shaping? IPV4? If you are a geek, maybe, but they aren't house hold names, but they helped change the world.

Seems a little off topic.

I am certain TC is correct. Too many people see the desire for quality of life as "lazy". Fortunately, a growing number of people are fighting for work/life/family balance. This was supposed to be aided, a lot, by women, particularly mothers entering the work force. Instead, too often, women simply became workaholics themselves.

I think there does need to be balance. I gave up my dreak of becoming a top Batman illustrator because 1) I stink 2) even if I was pretty good, the odds of being able to provide for a family in that line of work are minimal. Supporting a family is important to the balance. One can still look for rewarding work even if it isn't at top pay.(such as teacher, lab tech, emergency ward nurse) I wouldn't call those lazy professions. Money isn't all to motivation. Check this out:

 

[Dags90]

I hope his supervisor got donkey punched for saying stupid shit like that.

It's an unfortunately rampant problem in the U.S. labor market. It's thought to be one of the less homophobic reasons that gay men are paid less in management jobs. Unmarried, unbreeding people don't need to be paid as much because, well just because. Who cares about meritocracy? There is of course evidence pointing to just out and out homophobia.[footnote]http://www.sciencenewsline.com/economics/2011100400350049.html[/footnote]

Preaching to a presumable choir aside, I don't plan on working much more than 40 hours a week, hoping to get a Master's in a healthcare field, so I may have to juggle rotating weekends in a smaller hospital.

 

[Exile714]

You have to admit, working people to the bone, wearing them out and paying them as little as possible for the work... is a really good way to get rich. If all the CEO's make jobs scarce, then they can justify making people work 18 hour days plus weekends because people NEED the work. And if you quit or kill yourself, they can simply replace you with one of the millions of unemployed.

Calling you lazy for your efforts is just another level of control.

This comes from a lawyer who decided to shun the "law firm" in favor of self-employment. I work 35 hours a week and just barely make it by (considering my 200k+ in debt), but I control my work schedule completely. I do what I want, when I want. THAT makes me the richest person I know.

I don't think you're lazy, if that helps at all.

 

[gorfias]

You are living in a third world shithole, it seems

Agreed. Personally, I've always thought the "third-world" term should be either reevaluated or thrown out completely. Economic disparity is really a better evaluation of the functioning of a society than per capita GDP, a measure I find ridiculous.

I don't know why the word "third world" is even used to reference poor countries because the term references Cold War-Alliances, NATO and friends was first world, the USSR and friends was second world, and everyone else was 3rd world. I know that "everyone else" is also pretty impoverished for the most part but they're not all and the term doesn't mean to be a poor nation.

The proper terms are "Developed nation, developing nations and undeveloped nations"

But then I also see capitalism/commercialism/etc a method of brainwashing those with less resources to prop up the lifestyles of those with more in such a way that the most obvious form of revolt--however illusory the possibility of upward mobility may be--contributes to the stability of the system. Rather smooth how that works, isn't it? The greatest predictor of success in a modern capitalist society is simply being born into a wealthy family, yet we are all told hard work is all that is necessary to climb the ladder. This attitude is so prevalent to be implicit most of the time. And when you think about it, who does the efforts of the working classes benefit the most? Exactly, those who control the means of production. If it weren't so horrifying, I'd almost find it admirable.

No, it's those with a high demand, that's why doctors and lawyers are so rich because their job security is probably the highest there is since hell people are being prosecuted all the time and they also have medical problems too, and what it takes to get an effective one is a bunch of hard work.

Although yes, it gets pretty frustrating when you never hear too much famous success of people who graduate #1 in their universities, they don't seem to end up the most successful, like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs both dropped out of their university and look how they ended up, I seem to recall a drug dealer who dropped out of 9th grade but due to his experience with a supply and demand system once he got out of jail he was able to make wise decisions in the stock market and what do you know he's a millionaire now running his own company.

I was trying to explain to my mom that more money doesn't mean you're happier, trying to talk me down from becoming a teacher or biologist since "they don't make as much money" and yet I see her smoking (well she quit after a long struggle), constantly stressed out constantly working all day not even home until night to see me. Eventually she agreed with me after much resistance but stuck that you at least need enough to survive (well she came from Bulgaria, where on top of a job in the science department she ran 2 others because the economic conditions were out of control).

Wow, I babble really easily >.>

It's easy to do it if it's about something that you're constantly thinking about something you value.

snip

Dunno how I got dragged into this one, but I'll bite

It is true that one of the best predictors of wealth is the economic class you were born into. That is worrisome. If you were born in the lower class, does that mean working within the system is for suckers?

And the race is not won by the swift. We all know, as you reference, Bill Gates and Steve Jobs. But do you know the names of the people that invented packet shaping? IPV4? If you are a geek, maybe, but they aren't house hold names, but they helped change the world.

Seems a little off topic.

I am certain TC is correct. Too many people see the desire for quality of life as "lazy". Fortunately, a growing number of people are fighting for work/life/family balance. This was supposed to be aided, a lot, by women, particularly mothers entering the work force. Instead, too often, women simply became workaholics themselves.

I think there does need to be balance. I gave up my dreak of becoming a top Batman illustrator because 1) I stink 2) even if I was pretty good, the odds of being able to provide for a family in that line of work are minimal. Supporting a family is important to the balance. One can still look for rewarding work even if it isn't at top pay.(such as teacher, lab tech, emergency ward nurse) I wouldn't call those lazy professions. Money isn't all to motivation. Check this out:

 

[Fieldy409_v1legacy]

Personally, Im working my guts out right now with dad. We work a lot of weekends and overtime. Especially during summer. It can be depressing at times. But we are hoping to get into building homes and selling them off as a business. Right now we just build for others and rennovate. I think, personally, in my situation the hard work now will pay off later when I inherit a business from my father and have people working for me.

Course business is a gamble and it could fail, but if I dont work hard now there will be no payoff.

I live in australia btw.

 

[LiftYourSkinnyFists]

Teaching is probably one of the hardest working jobs out there, the shit you get at work and the shit you have to take home and not to mention the meager amount you get for said shit.


It's really not the best but if you like it you love it.


World needs teachers.