Why is the Western AAA game industry stagnating?

Hades

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On the Dev side, live service devs are folding to their bosses most of the time instead of fighting to make their games better. As a dev you want people to enjoy your game not get as much money, then let marketing handle the backlash.
I don't think the devs can really be blamed for this. Take a stance and refuse to handicap your game by putting in gambling features and the bosses would likely remove you from the project, and replace you with a dev that will handicap the game by putting in gambling features. And that's if the dev taking a stance isn't outright fired.

I don't think the developers really have a strong negotiating position. The publishers hold all the power. Developers can be easily replaced and project leads can be overruled when the project in question simply won't get made without the consent of the bosses.
 

Gergar12

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I don't think the devs can really be blamed for this. Take a stance and refuse to handicap your game by putting in gambling features and the bosses would likely remove you from the project, and replace you with a dev that will handicap the game by putting in gambling features. And that's if the dev taking a stance isn't outright fired.

I don't think the developers really have a strong negotiating position. The publishers hold all the power. Developers can be easily replaced and project leads can be overruled when the project in question simply won't get made without the consent of the bosses.
This is why we need unions.
 

hanselthecaretaker

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Diablo is one I would give the pioneer status too generally, as a LooteRPG or whatever you want to call it. Its only real predeccessor was Gauntlet, and it adds so many layers of complexity on to that formula that its hard to really put the two side by side.


Destiny is an FPS through and through. The RPG elements are almost opposed ot the game, and largely exist to drive FOMO/player login retention with how little impact they land on the game at all.



Souls.... does nothing terribly dissimilar from the other ARPGs of its era. Its unique mechanic is literally retrieving your souls after you die. Which ironically, given its reputation... is just a *less* punishing take on checkpoints. All your other "Souls" like stuff, dodge rol,s stamina bars, etc was prettymuch already embedded in the ARPG genre (hell, I think stamina bars came from Elder Scrolls, if anything).


Which in itself, is actually why "Souls-like"'s are so obvious and easy to label. They're copying this one highly specific mechanic (And usually a drab desturated gothic art style, as a side order). Which you can slap that mechanic into prettymuch any actual genre. Hell, that mechanic is in Minecraft and I'm not sure if Minecraft XP balls might even predate Souls.
Please correct me if I’m mistaken as I haven’t played a ton of ARPGs, but what made Souls (starting with Demon’s for me personally) stand out was:

- A persistent save system where you cannot go backwards to an earlier state, even after the simplest action like opening a menu or using a consumable

- A seamlessly integrated online system where the PVE environment coexists with PVP, and where passive or active collaboration among players is encouraged and rewarded

- A interconnected world (starting from Dark Souls) where your only resource for traversal is your personal memory of the layiut

- A methodical progression system where game world progress is marked only by reaching physical milestone locations, but loot is permanently acquired regardless. Also currency can be conditionally lost forever.

- A story that’s told through interaction with the game world vs narration or excessive cutscenes

It also just has a different feel to the gameplay for me personally. Might be the way Havok is implemented, but every action has a deliberate feel to it, and generally requires commitment on the player’s part, ie no cancellations.
 

sXeth

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Please correct me if I’m mistaken as I haven’t played a ton of ARPGs, but what made Souls (starting with Demon’s for me personally) stand out was:

- A persistent save system where you cannot go backwards to an earlier state, even after the simplest action like opening a menu or using a consumable

- A seamlessly integrated online system where the PVE environment coexists with PVP, and where passive or active collaboration among players is encouraged and rewarded

- A interconnected world (starting from Dark Souls) where your only resource for traversal is your personal memory of the layiut

- A methodical progression system where game world progress is marked only by reaching physical milestone locations, but loot is permanently acquired regardless. Also currency can be conditionally lost forever.

- A story that’s told through interaction with the game world vs narration or excessive cutscenes

It also just has a different feel to the gameplay for me personally. Might be the way Havok is implemented, but every action has a deliberate feel to it, and generally requires commitment on the player’s part, ie no cancellations.
1) Iron Man mode or autosave has been a thing for eons. On consoles it even became a weird standard (presumably to offset sotrage concerns).

2) I mean maybe. But I'd hardly consider that a defining take of the Souls games, more a niche side feature. And it hasn't bled into the "souls lke" "genre" whatsoever, with most of them remaining firmly non-multiplayer.


3) Every metroid-vania/zelda game ever. That part is older then dirt.

4) Also pretty ancient.(ish)

5) What story is told through interacting with the game world in Souls? There is a story. NPC's spout exposition at you constantly, in every single one. Take the NPCs (And the opening narration/cutscene out) and you'd basically have nothing). IF you mean Item descriptions harken back again to a much older era, Elder Scrolls, the BG era of D&D games, etc)


6) ARPG combat comes in all flavors. And often varies by build. I'd say the total opposite for Souls even. Souosl combat is a weightless nonsense where you roll around like you're on meth in between the same 2-3 hit quick combo that I used in... various other games in the same ouevre really. Since I played them around the same time, other then the lack of occasiponal TE's I can factually say I prettymuch played Castlevania Lord of Shadows and Dark Souls near identically, and the only reason it bogged down in Souls was it took me a while to realzie there were weapon upgrades.



None of which is to say Souls is a bad game (though I also don't see them as great pinnacle games). But its DNA is pretty well worn. With the main unique fetaure being that when you die and return to your last bonfire/camp/inn/waystone/shrine, you don't lose your progress compeltely until you die a second time. Whereas most games (of any variety) you die, get kicked back to your last checkpoint used and forfeit all gains between.
 
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hanselthecaretaker

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1) Iron Man mode or autosave has been a thing for eons. On consoles it even became a weird standard (presumably to offset sotrage concerns).

2) I mean maybe. But I'd hardly consider that a defining take of the Souls games, more a niche side feature. And it hasn't bled into the "souls lke" "genre" whatsoever, with most of them remaining firmly non-multiplayer.


3) Every metroid-vania/zelda game ever. That part is older then dirt.

4) Also pretty ancient.(ish)

5) What story is told through interacting with the game world in Souls? There is a story. NPC's spout exposition at you constantly, in every single one. Take the NPCs (And the opening narration/cutscene out) and you'd basically have nothing). IF you mean Item descriptions harken back again to a much older era, Elder Scrolls, the BG era of D&D games, etc)


6) ARPG combat comes in all flavors. And often varies by build. I'd say the total opposite for Souls even. Souosl combat is a weightless nonsense where you roll around like you're on meth in between the same 2-3 hit quick combo that I used in... various other games in the same ouevre really. Since I played them around the same time, other then the lack of occasiponal TE's I can factually say I prettymuch played Castlevania Lord of Shadows and Dark Souls near identically, and the only reason it bogged down in Souls was it took me a while to realzie there were weapon upgrades.



None of which is to say Souls is a bad game (though I also don't see them as great pinnacle games). But its DNA is pretty well worn. With the main unique fetaure being that when you die and return to your last bonfire/camp/inn/waystone/shrine, you don't lose your progress compeltely until you die a second time. Whereas most games (of any variety) you die, get kicked back to your last checkpoint used and forfeit all gains between.
1) On PC or console? On PC I recall nearly every game having a quicksave/ quick load key bind even before Souls games. On console there’s been auto save for generations, but usually only at certain very specific and limited points. Unless you have specific examples otherwise?

2) It’s still largely unique regardless of knock-off games using it. Also the message system can add a new dynamic depending on the players’ intentions in creating them.

3) Metroidvanias have maps that are permanent resources once you cover the ground initially.

4) Fair enough, but also hardly a mainstream idea which is why it was thought of as a big deal with Demons Souls and the other games.

5) What I mean is the player themselves has to seek out the game’s larger story, lore, etc. by interacting with everything or person they find vs a cutscene just spoon feeding the player everything for merely reaching checkpoints, level requirements, etc.

6) Yeah, it’s not particularly deep or skill-heavy, but next to most mainstream games in similar genres where you’re able to button mash or hack away with reckless abandon, you’ll die very quickly in Souls to even scrub enemies.

Having said that, it’s ultimately in the eye of the beholder. Although even when solely using the broader gaming community’s response to the series as a metric it’s safe to say it scratched an itch most people either didn’t know they had, or had for whatever reason missed.
 
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Agema

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  1. Death of the single-player game: Big AAA companies have cared much less about single-player games, Only the Western division of Sony and Bethesda seems to primarily focus on single-player AAA gaming experiences right now, multiplayer is the primary concern of most other AAA developers in the West now and this has alienated many gamers who are not as interested in multiplayer or can only play so many multiplayer games.
Overstated. Single player games are still viable cash cows.

But online games tend to have a shelf-life before eventually they eventually tail off. Bethesda know that the minute Elder Scrolls 6 arrives, a huge chunk of the Elder Scrolls Online player base stops playing Elder Scrolls Online for anywhere up to several months, and who knows, may never go back. Therefore, the appropriate time to release it is when ESO comes towards the end of its lifespan and is due retirement.

I think that's what Starfield is about. ESO has blocked out ES6 for years. Fallout 76 means no new Fallout 5 for... a long time (10 years +?). So create a new RPG IP.
 

sXeth

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1) On PC or console? On PC I recall nearly every game having a quicksave/ quick load key bind even before Souls games. On console there’s been auto save for generations, but usually only at certain very specific and limited points. Unless you have specific examples otherwise?

2) It’s still largely unique regardless of knock-off games using it. Also the message system can add a new dynamic depending on the players’ intentions in creating them.

3) Metroidvanias have maps that are permanent resources once you cover the ground initially.

4) Fair enough, but also hardly a mainstream idea which is why it was thought of as a big deal with Demons Souls and the other games.

5) What I mean is the player themselves has to seek out the game’s larger story, lore, etc. by interacting with everything or person they find vs a cutscene just spoon feeding the player everything for merely reaching checkpoints, level requirements, etc.

6) Yeah, it’s not particularly deep or skill-heavy, but next to most mainstream games in similar genres where you’re able to button mash or hack away with reckless abandon, you’ll die very quickly in Souls to even scrub enemies.

Having said that, it’s ultimately in the eye of the beholder. Although even when solely using the broader gaming community’s response to the series as a metric it’s safe to say it scratched an itch most people either didn’t know they had, or had for whatever reason missed.

Iron Man mode (which is to say, you can only save/load by quitting/opening the game) as I said was a common enough option. Yes an option, but I don't think it beign enforced is necessarily great either for a host of reasons. An immediate an actual contemporary example to Dark Souls was Dragons Dogma which did the exact same thing (though I believe the later remaster patched in more conventional save slots).


The multiplayer may have been more or less unique, but its a niche. An extreme niche. Souls-likes are develo[ped by... obviously, fans of souls games. And they completely disregrard this element. Even the Souls games started making it optional with offline modes, and basically turned it into the "difficulty balance" against using co-op more then anything.


Interconncted worlds.... old as dirt. Metroid, Castlevania, Zelda (up until Skyward sword), and all their descendants used this. I have no idea what you mean by "maps are permanent resources". All of the above (and their many imitators and inspiratees) have you criss-cross back and through areas. And usually offer some sequence breaking oppurtunities as well.

I didn't dissect pojtn #4 much, both because its weirdly multipart. But progress based on phisal movement is.... every game with stages and/or checkpoitns ever made. I could apply your description to Super MArio 3, really (also you lose your coins when you die in Mario, for the second bit). Your last bit was of course, the actual "Souls" mechanic, which is well, the main unique point of the series. But a singular mechanic doesn't make a distinct genre (well, beyond the 80s days of "platformer" and such), or we'd have "Nemesis" games, or "limit break" games, or Sanity meter games.


Well, the story note is... again, every RPg/adjacent (ie Zelda) game ever. Souls will happily spoon feed you exposition at designated checkpoints when it needs to. Gwenyvere, the Serpents, etc. It does it a lot less then some other titles would because there is, at the end of the day, a lot less meat on that bone to feed you. Some people prefer the more vague or abstract story, some do not. But it doesn't take any major steps outside the box in its storytelling. Maybe the odd missable wiki-or-you-wont-know-it-exists side-NPC quests, but even thats come up before.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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1) On PC or console? On PC I recall nearly every game having a quicksave/ quick load key bind even before Souls games. On console there’s been auto save for generations, but usually only at certain very specific and limited points. Unless you have specific examples otherwise?

6) Yeah, it’s not particularly deep or skill-heavy, but next to most mainstream games in similar genres where you’re able to button mash or hack away with reckless abandon, you’ll die very quickly in Souls to even scrub enemies.

Having said that, it’s ultimately in the eye of the beholder. Although even when solely using the broader gaming community’s response to the series as a metric it’s safe to say it scratched an itch most people either didn’t know they had, or had for whatever reason missed.
Consoles used not even let you save at all and games were basically all rogue-likes in that regard, beat the game in one run. Then, you'd get some passcode to continue from the level you made it to sometimes. Quicksave/quickload are just QOL improvements basically, and you can technically do that in a Souls game BTW, it just takes quitting, uploading to the cloud, then continuing on and downloading that save back when you die. I've done that at a few points in Souls games because doing that is faster than getting back to the point you were at. Especially some of the Sekiro bosses (I think mainly mini-bosses) where there are enemies all around the boss and clearing them out every time just to face the boss again was annoying as fuck.

Souls combat is exactly like Monster Hunter, weightiness and no animation cancels, but just not as good (far less i-frames in MH as well). Stamina management is hardly a thing in Souls where it's really important in Monster Hunter because if you need say 25 points of stamina to dodge, you fucking need 25 points of stamina to dodge so you can't just keep attacking and dodge after waiting a fraction of a second to get 1 point of stamina. In essence, Souls stamina is just a DPS limiter and you have to back away to refill stamina to attack again, it's not actually stamina management.
 

hanselthecaretaker

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Consoles used not even let you save at all and games were basically all rogue-likes in that regard, beat the game in one run. Then, you'd get some passcode to continue from the level you made it to sometimes. Quicksave/quickload are just QOL improvements basically, and you can technically do that in a Souls game BTW, it just takes quitting, uploading to the cloud, then continuing on and downloading that save back when you die. I've done that at a few points in Souls games because doing that is faster than getting back to the point you were at. Especially some of the Sekiro bosses (I think mainly mini-bosses) where there are enemies all around the boss and clearing them out every time just to face the boss again was annoying as fuck.

Souls combat is exactly like Monster Hunter, weightiness and no animation cancels, but just not as good (far less i-frames in MH as well). Stamina management is hardly a thing in Souls where it's really important in Monster Hunter because if you need say 25 points of stamina to dodge, you fucking need 25 points of stamina to dodge so you can't just keep attacking and dodge after waiting a fraction of a second to get 1 point of stamina. In essence, Souls stamina is just a DPS limiter and you have to back away to refill stamina to attack again, it's not actually stamina management.
But if you’re unlocking shortcuts you can just run/grapple back to those fights faster than going through all of that. Plus I thought you were only allowed one cloud download per 24hrs on ps but maybe that was only for PS3. I remember that because I tried the same thing to avoid replaying tough sections of the Boletaria bridge when I first started playing Demon’s Souls. Now though, even reloading a usb save seems more tedious than it’s worth.

I suppose that’s one of the reasons Monster Hunter is considered clunky. In fact it actually reminds me of like a turn based hybrid where you need a certain point count to do anything ala classic Fallout or Shadow Run Returns. It adds some strategy in that you have to manage stamina more, but really also disrupts the flow of gameplay in ways that would detract from so many SoulsBorne boss fights.
 

Phoenixmgs

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But if you’re unlocking shortcuts you can just run/grapple back to those fights faster than going through all of that. Plus I thought you were only allowed one cloud download per 24hrs on ps but maybe that was only for PS3. I remember that because I tried the same thing to avoid replaying tough sections of the Boletaria bridge when I first started playing Demon’s Souls. Now though, even reloading a usb save seems more tedious than it’s worth.

I suppose that’s one of the reasons Monster Hunter is considered clunky. In fact it actually reminds me of like a turn based hybrid where you need a certain point count to do anything ala classic Fallout or Shadow Run Returns. It adds some strategy in that you have to manage stamina more, but really also disrupts the flow of gameplay in ways that would detract from so many SoulsBorne boss fights.
Getting back there wasn't the issue. It's that there were several enemies in the same area with the boss and it takes time to clear them out every time. I remember doing the save thing in the big forest area in Bloodborne because I like clearing out the whole area and being able to search around for everything and I wasn't going to kill all those snake things again. I really only recall getting back my save in Dark Souls to see both endings so I don't recall if you could only do it once a day or maybe it was game specific or whether the save was protected, maybe Demon's Souls was and the other games weren't.

If you just had more base stamina in a Souls game, it wouldn't make much of a difference outside of you having to pay more attention (don't Souls fans like having to pay attention?). Say a normal Souls' boss fight allows you to get 3 hits in before having to do away. Now it's like Monster Hunter and you have more base stamina and you can still do 3 hits and dodge away. However, if you do 4 hits, you can't dodge away until you have enough stamina then. It's then the same experience but more option for the player to get an extra hit in if they think they have the time at the risk of losing their dodge for a second or two.
 

hanselthecaretaker

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Getting back there wasn't the issue. It's that there were several enemies in the same area with the boss and it takes time to clear them out every time. I remember doing the save thing in the big forest area in Bloodborne because I like clearing out the whole area and being able to search around for everything and I wasn't going to kill all those snake things again. I really only recall getting back my save in Dark Souls to see both endings so I don't recall if you could only do it once a day or maybe it was game specific or whether the save was protected, maybe Demon's Souls was and the other games weren't.

If you just had more base stamina in a Souls game, it wouldn't make much of a difference outside of you having to pay more attention (don't Souls fans like having to pay attention?). Say a normal Souls' boss fight allows you to get 3 hits in before having to do away. Now it's like Monster Hunter and you have more base stamina and you can still do 3 hits and dodge away. However, if you do 4 hits, you can't dodge away until you have enough stamina then. It's then the same experience but more option for the player to get an extra hit in if they think they have the time at the risk of losing their dodge for a second or two.
The thing about bosses is even if you reload a save, I think it resets the entire fight anyways. Clearing things out the first time on the way there is really all that’s needed because loot is saved, then enemies are just extra XP/soul currency depending on how much the player wants to level stuff. It took me a long time (and deaths) to break the habit and just run right to the fog gates instead.

I’m not completely familiar with how MH stamina works, but if the gauge refills with time or gets boosted by certain actions I think Souls could’ve benefited from having the latter as well. As it is the biggest thing that could throw the attack loop off is posture-breaking attacks when guarding. One of my biggest criticisms about the melee combat is there should’ve been an extra dynamic that would prevent the player from getting to comfortable with the attack/roll loop.
 

Phoenixmgs

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The thing about bosses is even if you reload a save, I think it resets the entire fight anyways. Clearing things out the first time on the way there is really all that’s needed because loot is saved, then enemies are just extra XP/soul currency depending on how much the player wants to level stuff. It took me a long time (and deaths) to break the habit and just run right to the fog gates instead.

I’m not completely familiar with how MH stamina works, but if the gauge refills with time or gets boosted by certain actions I think Souls could’ve benefited from having the latter as well. As it is the biggest thing that could throw the attack loop off is posture-breaking attacks when guarding. One of my biggest criticisms about the melee combat is there should’ve been an extra dynamic that would prevent the player from getting to comfortable with the attack/roll loop.
That's how it worked in Sekiro, it saves the exact state of the game when you exit out.

The main difference with stamina in MH is like I said before you need so much stamina to do an action so you just can't wait to get a sliver of stamina to attack again or to dodge. I don't believe there's any action to refill your stamina in MH (but there's so much stuff in it and different weapons and combinations) but there are items/equipment the increase stamina gauge refilling or lessen the stamina actions take. Of course, you can build in something like Nioh where you can refill stamina. My main complaint about Souls combat (at least my most recent memory from Bloodborne) was that normal enemies get staggered by like any attack/weapon so you just mash R1 and move away when out of stamina and repeat.
 

CriticalGaming

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My main complaint about Souls combat (at least my most recent memory from Bloodborne) was that normal enemies get staggered by like any attack/weapon so you just mash R1 and move away when out of stamina and repeat.
While you could do that to an extent with very basic enemies there were too things that make this dangerous.

1. Having enough stamina to kill the enemy with mashing. Doing this runs the risk of not killing them before you stamina runs out and having zero stamina left to dodge the counter attack. And enemies dont need 7 hits to kill you. One or two can be enough.

2. A lot of enemies have counter animations to prevent this. Even early enemies in bloodborne had torches that they would wave at you with super armor after a hit or two of your spam attack. Making this method of spamming ineffective almost instantly from the beginning of the game.

Now this isnt to say that if you know what you are doing you couldnt get around this. But most of the difficultly of a souls games comes from a lack of knowledge.

The difficulty curve of a souls game drastically drops the more time a player puts into the game. That is one of the biggest appeals of this type of game. It starts hard, but learning and sticking with will ultimately reduce the challenge dramatically. And that is a very rewarding feeling in the end.
 

Gyrobot

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Funny how OP talked about how the gap between Morrowind and Skyrim has been almost ten years now

 
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BrawlMan

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Funny how OP talked about how the gap between Morrowind and Skyrim has been almost ten years now

And yet I could never get invested in either games.
 

Phoenixmgs

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While you could do that to an extent with very basic enemies there were too things that make this dangerous.

1. Having enough stamina to kill the enemy with mashing. Doing this runs the risk of not killing them before you stamina runs out and having zero stamina left to dodge the counter attack. And enemies dont need 7 hits to kill you. One or two can be enough.

2. A lot of enemies have counter animations to prevent this. Even early enemies in bloodborne had torches that they would wave at you with super armor after a hit or two of your spam attack. Making this method of spamming ineffective almost instantly from the beginning of the game.

Now this isnt to say that if you know what you are doing you couldnt get around this. But most of the difficultly of a souls games comes from a lack of knowledge.

The difficulty curve of a souls game drastically drops the more time a player puts into the game. That is one of the biggest appeals of this type of game. It starts hard, but learning and sticking with will ultimately reduce the challenge dramatically. And that is a very rewarding feeling in the end.
If you are staggering the enemy on every hit, then you have the recovery time from that stagger to get enough stamina for a dodge. Very few enemies have an interrupt attack and really only the really big enemies don't get staggered, even the werewolves stagger on the basic sword of the kirkhammer. I wish fighting through the normal enemies required more of that knowledge (and/or skill as well). In Dark Souls, I didn't even know that the frogs could curse you because of how easy it is to avoid their attacks until I saw it on Youtube. I recall hearing from people that had played Souls (I guess mainly Demon's at the time) when I went into Dark Souls that you had to pay attention to enemy animations and that really wasn't true besides the occasional tough boss. Whereas Sekiro, you do very much have to pay attention to the animations.