Why is The Witcher allowed to portray heterosexual male sexuality while Kojima gets grilled over it?

[Piorn]

Isn't everything "objectification", "rape culture", "misogynist", "backwards", "politically incorrect", "haram", "insensitive", "triggering", "buzzwords", "tumblr", and some other mean words, these days?

All these discussions have done is made me not care about people complaining.
Just because something isn't good doesn't mean it needs to be better. Sometimes things just are what they are. Sometimes a sterile guy who fucks women is just that, not some justification or metaphor for oppressing or objectifying women.
Not every story has to be bloody Animal Farm, sometimes a story is just a story.

 

[endtherapture]

People don't understand what is normal for Japanese media. Japanese media is one of huge tonal shifts, between serious stuff and incredibly dark stuff. People apply Western standards on sexuality to Japanese created characters like Quiet. Additionally sexualised characters in Metal Gear always have a reason for it - see EVA and Paz for two sexualised characters who are sexualised on their own terms to manipulate male characters.

Also if the Chico = Quiet theory is true then the people who are pissed off are going to feel pretty stupid.

The two leading theories are that, and one where shes horribly disfigured and it's some sort of hologram device (which can also make her invisible, like octocamo from MGS4). Either way the people getting pissed off over how a game character looks are stupid regardless.

The other theory is that she's related to The End, and is dressed like that since she has to photosynthesise like he did.

Yep MGS has never been one for subtle character designs either. The whole series is basically a post modern Tom Clancy crossed with an anime and that's half the charm of it. If you can't take crazy character designs and massive tonal shifts then MGS isn't the game series for you.

No need for prudes to try to force their way in to a series and demand it change to fit to their world view.

 

[blackrave]

CDPR are independent and make the games they want to make. People can criticize the sexual themes all they want (and they do), but it won't make CDPR change in any way. I can't say the same about Konami.

This is my opinion as well.
What's the point of nagging in front of someone who will laugh at you while pointing finger?
Kojima/Konami on the other hand may listen.

 

[EvilRoy]

Mostly because Kojima is a bit of an odd duck, and takes approaches to sexuality in his work that makes people uncomfortable. To put it another way "because he's a weird foreigner that we will mock because we don't understand him".

Honestly, Kojima uses very fucked up ideas and backgrounds for his characters that very few other developers or writers will, and he does it in such a way that will make sexuality or sexiness extremely uncomfortable or unappealing to people really paying attention to the story. I feel that this is a strength of his, in that he is able to make something that actually has layers to it. On the surface many of his characters are appealing, sexually or otherwise, but on closer inspection and exploration through story the appeal is based on either lies or suffering and is presented in such a way as to act as a shield for the characters to cope similarly to how real people who have experience suffering act in their day to day.

People are going to say that Quiet is all about the T&A no matter what explanation is ever given for why, because people aren't actually interested in the story or ideas. They see boobs, yell "bad" and move on having successfully shown an outsider with dangerously non-standard ideas what for.

 

[The Lunatic]

So, ingame objects that depict women are made into real-world objects that depict women in a way that certain people dislike.


And people are offended of course, so, naturally we get vitriol poured from ivory towers.

Now, I have no interest in these things. It's not really something I gain any enjoyment from, but, I'm not one to dictate what people can and can't enjoy.

People blaming Kojima for it is extremely dumb. He directs the games, he's not in charge of every aspect of the marketing, nor in charge of what merchandise is made for the game.

 

[Gengisgame]

Isn't everything "objectification", "rape culture", "misogynist", "backwards", "politically incorrect", "haram", "insensitive", "triggering", "buzzwords", "tumblr", and some other mean words, these days?

All these discussions have done is made me not care about people complaining.
Just because something isn't good doesn't mean it needs to be better. Sometimes things just are what they are. Sometimes a sterile guy who fucks women is just that, not some justification or metaphor for oppressing or objectifying women.
Not every story has to be bloody Animal Farm, sometimes a story is just a story.

This was inevitable, the constant whining means that these people would become to video games what the church became to rappers, there hatred will be something to ignore or be proud of.

B*tches ain't nothin but hoes and tricks.

 

[Orga777]

The toy is weird to me. However, Japan has... certain cultural differences with their media based merchandise. I find the toy creepy as hell, but that is because I am putting my Western sensibilities into the equation. However, this isn;t the weirdest thing Japan has made as toys... THESE are:

http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-news/2013/12/01/next-ultraman-kaiju-to-become-cut-girl-figures

 

[Fox12]

Also if the Chico = Quiet theory is true then the people who are pissed off are going to feel pretty stupid.

Are they, though? The character is exposed to sexual violence, and his response is to get a gender change, never talk, and dress like a stripper? How is that an accurate portrayal of someone dealing with PTSD or mental trauma? If that's the case then the only people who should feel stupid are the ones who drooled over her. And maybe Kojima.

But that may not even be the case, so who knows?

 

[endtherapture]

Also if the Chico = Quiet theory is true then the people who are pissed off are going to feel pretty stupid.

Are they, though? The character is exposed to sexual violence, and his response is to get a gender change, never talk, and dress like a stripper? How is that an accurate portrayal of someone dealing with PTSD or mental trauma? If that's the case then the only people who should feel stupid are the ones who drooled over her. And maybe Kojima.

But that may not even be the case, so who knows?

Different people deal with trauma in different ways. Some people who are abused as children may become sexually promiscuous in latter day life. If Chico's sexual trauma as a teenager makes him question his identity and become a vengeful ghost in the memory of his friend and crush Paz, what's to say that isn't okay? Making every character mopey and emotional isn't very creative, and Kojima is all about creativity.

I don't think the theory is true, but I don't think it'd be inappropriate if it did become true. Additionally I haven't seen any Metal Gear fans in the community "drool" over her, and even if they have, what's wrong about "drooling" over a transgender person? They can be hot too.

 

[Fox12]

I don't think the theory is true, but I don't think it'd be inappropriate if it did become true. Additionally I haven't seen any Metal Gear fans in the community "drool" over her, and even if they have, what's wrong about "drooling" over a transgender person? They can be hot too.

Most don't. I'm largely referring to the action figure/body pillow crowd. If they view her as nothing more then a sexual object, then discover she's a rape victim, then I do think that would be pretty shameful. My main issue is that Kojima had handled the issues of rape and war violence before, but I've never seen him do it well. Not in Ground Zeroes, and not elsewhere. I'm not trying to be provocative towards fans, but I do consider it a failing on Kojima's part.

Also, I wasn't trying to imply anything against the transgendered, so if I came across that way then I apologize : P

 

[sageoftruth]

CDPR are independent and make the games they want to make. People can criticize the sexual themes all they want (and they do), but it won't make CDPR change in any way. I can't say the same about Konami.

At this point I think it's the same for Konami, given that they've pretty much stopped caring about the game industry and seem to want to cut all ties with it.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

Maybe it's because Kojima explicitly stated that Quiet would an antithesis of female characters...

-tweets-

and then goes and makes a figurine with squishable boobs. Even if he's right about the character in the actual game, that figurine detracts from any point he might be trying to make. I mean, I love Kojima, eccentricities and all, but there's definitely some dissonance there.

And let's not pretend that CD Projekt Red have never been criticised on this issue either. In fact, one of the main criticisms of one of the Witcher games (the original, I think) was the way it treated sleeping with women as a card collecting minigame.

I can't help but feel that when your character archtype is "scarred and broken woman who has overt sign of it (mutism in this case) and dresses provocatively because of her trauma", you aren't getting far away from the archtypical female character. Granted, I don't know what the trauma is, but it'll have to be mind blowing for Kojima to not just be using a tired old trope. So far it just seems to be the Beauty/Beast squad from MGS IV but condensed into one character.

As you rightly point out, CDPR has been criticized for its' pointless titillation too, especially with the first The Witcher game. The second was more of a mixed bag, with praise generally being afforded to the romance with Triss and the rather tasteful love scene it contained but criticism being afforded to the fetch quest sex reward elf in Act II and the crass inclusion of prostitutes for no good reason.

 

[Doom972]

CDPR are independent and make the games they want to make. People can criticize the sexual themes all they want (and they do), but it won't make CDPR change in any way. I can't say the same about Konami.

At this point I think it's the same for Konami, given that they've pretty much stopped caring about the game industry and seem to want to cut all ties with it.

Exactly - at this point. CDPR have shown that they make the games they want to make from the very beginning.

 

[endtherapture]

I don't think the theory is true, but I don't think it'd be inappropriate if it did become true. Additionally I haven't seen any Metal Gear fans in the community "drool" over her, and even if they have, what's wrong about "drooling" over a transgender person? They can be hot too.

Most don't. I'm largely referring to the action figure/body pillow crowd. If they view her as nothing more then a sexual object, then discover she's a rape victim, then I do think that would be pretty shameful. My main issue is that Kojima had handled the issues of rape and war violence before, but I've never seen him do it well. Not in Ground Zeroes, and not elsewhere. I'm not trying to be provocative towards fans, but I do consider it a failing on Kojima's part.

Also, I wasn't trying to imply anything against the transgendered, so if I came across that way then I apologize : P

I personally disagree, I think his commentary on soldiers in Metal Gear Solid 1 and 3 is brilliant. It's very obvious, and is often talking at you, but it's a pretty good message (that ending scene of MGS3).

But either way, we don't know yet, she could be a scarred war victim wearing octocamo, she could be post-surgey Chico, she could be a descendent of The End. Kojima's a genius guy in my opinion and he almost always makes you feel empathy for the characters within, regardless of their exterior appearance, see Meryl, Naomi, Fortune and EVA. All brilliant characters despite having some element of sexualisation about them.

Also if the Chico = Quiet theory is true then the people who are pissed off are going to feel pretty stupid.

Are they, though? The character is exposed to sexual violence, and his response is to get a gender change, never talk, and dress like a stripper? How is that an accurate portrayal of someone dealing with PTSD or mental trauma? If that's the case then the only people who should feel stupid are the ones who drooled over her. And maybe Kojima.

But that may not even be the case, so who knows?

I've seen some soldiers do some pretty odd shit after coming back from deployment. I know a guy who got into some really weird BDSM shit after he got back. And he didn't do the whole "raping my crush in gitmo" part that Chico does.

Even saw a news piece once where a former US Marines only time he's truly calm is when he's getting his toenails clean and painted. You'd be surprised at the kind of things that become normal and a necessity to guys after they've seen some combat.

Remember Chelsea Manning (formerly Bradley), the transgender soldier who leaked a whole load of classified documents of the US military on the internet? Weird stuff does happen to ex soldiers with PTSD in real life, it's not just "crazy Kojima Japanese stuff xD!!!1"

 

[Sigmund Av Volsung]

The difference is down to writing. Yes, the Witcher series hasn't been graced with absolutely stellar writing ("lesbomancy!" comes to mind, though it's still pretty funny since it's delivered by a dwarf in an otherwise bleak and horrible world) but it is still way above Kojima's level.

How do I know this? Aside from my avatar indicating bias, let's look at the way these games pace out their emotional peaks and troughs.

Witcher 2 has a quest where you run around gathering harpy feathers for an unspecified reason, culminating in this:


Whereas MGS can't stop with it's absurdity, what with how Snake recognises a soldier through their butt, the wolf with the eyepatch, Otacon's "japanese animes", Revolver Ocelot...etc. etc.

The humour feels much more unrefined and all over the place, making it more absurd. Witcher 2 on the other hand, has a few, select moments that truly drive the point home, like the vampire moment in the recent trailer.

So where am I going with this? Simply put, the quality of writing and context determines who gets a free pass. The Witcher has shown a level of maturity to match its setting and it has been shown to have high standards of writing. MGS hasn't shown either, and more often than not, resorts in syne-waving inconsistently between "lol random" and "war is hell".

So when CDProjektRed decides to talk about rape or it depicts heterosexuality, it's merited since we can trust them to deal with it maturely: they have come far from the Witcher 1, to the point where all the sex scenes in The Witcher 2 are optional and of those, there are tasteful ones that build character development and show Geralt & Triss' relationship in an adult but also human manner. Sex isn't "srs bzns" nor is it entirely "lol BEWBS", but a mix of both.

Kojima hasn't demonstrated that level of maturity. It also doesn't help that the first new female character in MGS V that we meet is a glamour model who never speaks and that Kojima made that cosplay comment. Judging by his past history of The Beauty and The Beast Unit...yeah, it doesn't bode well. People are getting rightfully tired of this, and the inconsistent writing would make it a stretch to say that there's something meaningful behind this presentation of women.

That'd be like saying that Hideaki Anno isn't just milking NGE fans by releasing the rebuilds.

So yeah, that's why CDProjektRed gets a free pass and Kojima doesn't.