Why SOPA was wrong, but Megaupload's takedown is right.

[seraphy]

Just like it is legal to seize assets, freeze bank accounts, and close businesses while they are being brought up on charges.

I see it as a huge problem that you can ruin established business just on a suspicion of a crime. Bit sad that you don't.

Why were we against sopa and pipa again?

 

[Smeggs]

And these corporations can suck my motherfucking dick. They make enough money from the sheeps who only ever buy things the legal way, and yet they want to shut down what I would assume is a minority? Considering people use iTunes when they can get the very same music for free baffles me, and it baffles me further that this is not enough for these corporations.

Are you trolling right now? Because honestly you must be as you just tried to make it seem like those of us who buy things legitimately instead of stealing everything we can under the sun off of the internet is a bad thing. Sheep? Since when did the term sheep apply to those of us who obtain a medium of entertainment honestly? I suppose paying for things is just too mainstream for you, eh?

Sure, I've downloaded free music, but the fact of the matter is if everybody thought the way you do none of the artists would have any desire to make any more music in the first place as they wouldn't see the profits.

Money runs the world. No money, no way to fund new projects, no new content.

 

[NiPah]

Now I've seen a lot of people around making the point that if Megaupload can be taken down then, like with SOPA, youtube and google are next in line. When clearly the megaupload takedown is a good thing while SOPA was not.

One of the biggest criticisms behind SOPA was that it would give the corporations too much control and too much leeway in deciding what exactly "infringed" their copyright and then could take too much action on sites like Youtube or Google that served major purposes that were unrelated to piracy in the first place.

Enter Megaupload.

It is similar to Google and Youtube in that independent artists and regular law-abiding people can upload legitimate files to it to store how they want, but if that is your only criteria in comparing them you are simplifying it down far too much.

Megaupload was a much safer haven for piracy for one. The steps places like Youtube took to prevent copyright infringement were far more than the ones Megaupload took. The charges bring a good explanation as to why that was the case as well.

The charges brought against Megaupload aren't just for copyright infringement, but also include money laundering, conspiracy, and racketeering. The difference between Youtube and Megaupload is how they each approach the fact that people will seek to upload much copyrighted content with their services. Megaupload's damning actions are that they seeked to exploit the fact that users were uploading copyrighted material to their servers and profit off it. The charges include allegations that they were rewarding their members for uploading content that became popular and attracted a lot of traffic regardless of whether that content had any kind of copyright protection.

Youtube has its partnership program but if they rewarded someone who decided to upload a full movie just because it was popular the law would be in the right to press charges against Youtube for having Youtube themselves promoting or profiting off illegally uploaded content.

There still is the possibility that the charges are false, maybe even someone would believe that they're just a conspiracy brought up by the government instead to suppress the internet's freedom until there is no more left.

While it is impossible to prove the former wrong, something will have be done about piracy and in a case like this it's not right to condemn the government when they finally go after one of the real culprits that is liable for piracy in the first place.

You better have some facts to back up that accusation, the old "we all know its used for pirating" doesn't mean crap in court or in a debate. What are the stats? Where are the emails you talk about? Where is the clear example of law breaking that would result in the site being shut down? You're damning a website without actually giving any concrete evidence.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielnyegriffiths/2012/01/20/megaupload-by-the-number/

That provides a little more unbiased and evidence based approach to what is actually happening.

 

[Nikolaz72]

MegaUpload is based in Hong Kong.
Can you please explain to me what the FBI (they're America, by the way - not Chinese) were doing taking down that website for the entire world?

That's part of why this is so puzzling. Apparenlty New Zealand is doing the FBI's bidding like a faithfull servant by arresting people based on a case that has, well, zero evidence as far as is known thus far. And they also managed to seize domain names which are also not in any way under US jurisdiction.

Even under the dodgy US law system it seems there have been a number of laws broken by the FBI in this case. It will be interesting to see if this blows open into a scandal, or they just make up some excuse and let it go.

If the latter happens, it would be prudent for any and every website to cut any ties with either the US or New Zealand, because they could be taken down and arrested without actually breaking any copyright laws.

You could post illegal files on this website, and then the Escapist could be taken down and it's operators arrested even. After all, Megaupload only operated user-uploaded files, and never personally uploaded or downloaded anything infringing copyrights.

Youknow how they blackmailed Spain and threatened to go trade-sanction on their arse? Yea. We only saw that because it leaked. -Leaked- is the keyword. Could easily have been send to all countries in the western world with only Spain/Sweeden leaking.

I would not put it past The World Police to use blackmail and other threats for the greater good.

 

[Deathmageddon]

On the subject of piracy in general, Plato wrote that people without respect for the law should be killed as a plague on society... Our justice system is less dependent on corporal punishment, but other than that, the point is still relevant. **** pirates.

 

[evilneko]

On the subject of piracy in general, Plato wrote that people without respect for the law should be killed as a plague on society... Our justice system is less dependent on corporal punishment, but other than that, the point is still relevant. **** pirates.

And what exactly does this have to do with the topic?

 

[Aeonknight]

The difference between Youtube and Megaupload is how they each approach the fact that people will seek to upload much copyrighted content with their services. Megaupload's damning actions are that they seeked to exploit the fact that users were uploading copyrighted material to their servers and profit off it. The charges include allegations that they were rewarding their members for uploading content that became popular and attracted a lot of traffic regardless of whether that content had any kind of copyright protection.

This isn't a difference, youtube rewards channel owners who generate a lot of traffic with a cut of the advertising money. I've even been offered this:

Dear [redacted],

Your YouTube account [redacted] might be eligible to earn revenue from the playbacks of your videos.

Making money from your video is easy. Here's how it works: First sign in to your YouTube account. Then, review and complete the steps outlined here:http://www.youtube.com/account_monetization?feature=ieqe.

If your account is enabled, we may place ads next to the videos that you submit for monetisation. You will earn a share of the revenue from the ads, as long as you meet the programme requirements.

Thanks and good luck!

The YouTube Team

Check the link, if you think I'm just making this up. The only real difference is that youtube gets more DMCA notices than Megaupload did.

(Didn't seem worth the hassle though, tbh. I have one video that I stuck on there about 3 years ago. Wasn't even filmed by me =p )

That kinda takes youtube's offer out of context. You see plenty of popular people on youtube that get partnership offers without having to offer you a bootleg version of movies to do it. The only parallel I can think of is the Let's Play community, but the game industry hasn't gone after them... yet. (Not sure if they legally can... Not sure you're copying anyone's work if the work is interactive, but the "pirate" version isn't.)

But if you want another difference between youtube and megaupload, check the indictment:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/78786408/Mega-Indictment

25.

On or about June 24, 2010, members of the Mega Conspiracy were informed,pursuant to a criminal search warrant from the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia, that thirty-nine infringing copies of copyrighted motion pictures were present on their leased servers at Carpathia Hosting, a hosting company headquartered in the Eastern District of Virginia. A member of the Mega Conspiracy informed several of his co-conspirators at that time that he located the named files using internal searches of their systems. As of November 18,2011, more than a year later, thirty-six of the thirty-nine infringing motion pictures were still being stored on the servers controlled by the Mega Conspiracy.

Youtube takes down videos when it's told to. These guys? Apparently not.

 

[Pebkio]

On the subject of piracy in general, Plato wrote that people without respect for the law should be killed as a plague on society... Our justice system is less dependent on corporal punishment, but other than that, the point is still relevant. **** pirates.

Oh yeah, sure, without proof, let's shoot them between the eyes. You want the pull the trigger? Did you fail to notice that Megaupload had regularly taken down pirated files for violating the site's TOS?

But no, nevermind, you've already judged the operators so now it's cool to shut them down. Seize their equipment and send them to jail. Who needs a trial, right?

Ugh... sorry, I thought you were commenting on how to deal with Megaupload. That's how it came off anyway, posting that in the thread about how taking down Megaupload is a good thing. I guess I'm just majorly angry right now...

 

[artanis_neravar]

Just like it is legal to seize assets, freeze bank accounts, and close businesses while they are being brought up on charges.

I see it as a huge problem that you can ruin established business just on a suspicion of a crime. Bit sad that you don't.

Why were we against sopa and pipa again?

It's not a suspicion, you need evidence, and a court order, it's not like they said "hey lets take down Megaupload" then 30 secs later it was down

 

[seraphy]

It's not a suspicion, you need evidence, and a court order, it's not like they said "hey lets take down Megaupload" then 30 secs later it was down

It's a suspicion until they have been sentenced. That is how it works.

 

[Abedeus]

It starts with Megauploads, then it's then streams, Youtube, Facebook and then entire Internet is censored.

 

[Daverson]

The difference between Youtube and Megaupload is how they each approach the fact that people will seek to upload much copyrighted content with their services. Megaupload's damning actions are that they seeked to exploit the fact that users were uploading copyrighted material to their servers and profit off it. The charges include allegations that they were rewarding their members for uploading content that became popular and attracted a lot of traffic regardless of whether that content had any kind of copyright protection.

This isn't a difference, youtube rewards channel owners who generate a lot of traffic with a cut of the advertising money. I've even been offered this:

Dear [redacted],

Your YouTube account [redacted] might be eligible to earn revenue from the playbacks of your videos.

Making money from your video is easy. Here's how it works: First sign in to your YouTube account. Then, review and complete the steps outlined here:http://www.youtube.com/account_monetization?feature=ieqe.

If your account is enabled, we may place ads next to the videos that you submit for monetisation. You will earn a share of the revenue from the ads, as long as you meet the programme requirements.

Thanks and good luck!

The YouTube Team

Check the link, if you think I'm just making this up. The only real difference is that youtube gets more DMCA notices than Megaupload did.

(Didn't seem worth the hassle though, tbh. I have one video that I stuck on there about 3 years ago. Wasn't even filmed by me =p )

That kinda takes youtube's offer out of context. You see plenty of popular people on youtube that get partnership offers without having to offer you a bootleg version of movies to do it. The only parallel I can think of is the Let's Play community, but the game industry hasn't gone after them... yet. (Not sure if they legally can... Not sure you're copying anyone's work if the work is interactive, but the "pirate" version isn't.)

But if you want another difference between youtube and megaupload, check the indictment:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/78786408/Mega-Indictment

25.

On or about June 24, 2010, members of the Mega Conspiracy were informed,pursuant to a criminal search warrant from the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia, that thirty-nine infringing copies of copyrighted motion pictures were present on their leased servers at Carpathia Hosting, a hosting company headquartered in the Eastern District of Virginia. A member of the Mega Conspiracy informed several of his co-conspirators at that time that he located the named files using internal searches of their systems. As of November 18,2011, more than a year later, thirty-six of the thirty-nine infringing motion pictures were still being stored on the servers controlled by the Mega Conspiracy.

Youtube takes down videos when it's told to. These guys? Apparently not.

Almost every website will store "removed" content on their servers for some time after it's "removed" , it doesn't say the files were still publicly available.

(It's also worth noting that depending on the server, the data of deleted files will still be present on hard disks until it's physically overwritten)

Though I will admit I wasn't aware of this at the time I made my post. If there is a conspiracy it should be brought to justice, but it just doesn't seem to me that there is. "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity", etc.

Actually, I just got to page 32 on the Indictment, the bit with the Emails showing a clear knowledge of illegal content, but payments being given nonetheless. Good read, I'd recommend it. Let the bastards burn.

 

[evilneko]

^ Not to mention it may have been re-uploaded any number of times...

 

[Combustion Kevin]

I still don't see how Megaupload can be charged for money-laundering, racketeering or conspiracy.
their revenue came from ads and people who bought premium, both of which are perfectly legal so there isn't any money to launder.
sure, they got more traffic by cutting copyrighted material some slack, but they took no illegal action themselves.

they are also a registrated and legitimate business, so racketeering goes out the window as well, this isn't the bloody maffia, they just found a loophole in the system and abused the fuck out of it, nothing technically illegal so what is this charge based on.

also, the conspiracy charge, to me, sounds a lot like:"but you were thinking it.".

 

[DarthFennec]

While it is impossible to prove the former wrong, something will have be done about piracy and in a case like this it's not right to condemn the government when they finally go after one of the real culprits that is liable for piracy in the first place.

... the real culprits are the pirates. Not a sharing site. The regular every day pirates. Okay then what happens when megaupload goes down? Well, I have to find another site to share my perfectly legal files on, for one. So the millions of people who use it legally have officially been given the finger. And what happens to the pirates? Well I expect a lot of them are used to uploading to a few different sites already, there's like videoweed and putlocker and a bunch of others I hear about. This one site being taken down won't stop them, I bet they don't even care. So ... the thing the government does not only completely fails in what it's supposed to accomplish, but it also inconveniences the rest of us? And you don't want us to condemn the government because I guess you think they did something right for once? Well okay lol.

 

[DarthFennec]

You think it is moral, or even legal to shut down sites before their owners have actually been sentenced on any crime?

As far as I am aware innocent until proven guilty still applies in United states.

Well there was that one law they passed a few weeks ago about the military detaining you indefinitely for no good reason ... I could definitely see the government trying to make us believe Megaupload was suspected of terrorism ...

 

[BurnOutBrighter]

lol @ people thinking the majority of files on MegaUpload are legitimate.

MegaUpload was always shady as hell, and Kim Dotcom and his staff were fully aware that they were selling subscriptions to pirated content.

Normally I would be against something like the MegaUpload takedown, but if you read the indictments and staff emails and chat logs and half-assed copyright compliance measures they put in place, it becomes obvious that MegaUpload never wished to respect the rights of copyright holders.

Yes, there were legitimate users of the site, but the vast, VAST majority of it was pirated content, which Kim Dotcom and his friends were making MILLIONS of dollars from. If anything, this shows that there is zero need for SOPA when the current system can deal with offenders just like this - but of course the RIAA and MPAA would rather just control the kill switch themselves.

Here's a great article outlining the indictment and evidence against MegaUpload.
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2012/01/why-the-feds-smashed-megaupload.ars

 

[Zen Toombs]

-snip-

I generally agree with that the Megaupload takedown was right even while SOPA was wrong. I actually had a conversation along those lines in one of my classes today.

 

[thom_cat_]

lol @ people thinking the majority of files in MegaUpload are legitimate.

MegaUpload was always shady as hell, and Kim Dotcom and his staff were fully aware that they were selling subscriptions to pirated content.

Normally I would be against something like the MegaUpload takedown, but if you read the indictments and staff emails and chat logs and half-assed copyright compliance measures they put in place, it becomes obvious that MegaUpload never wished to respect the rights of copyright holders.

Yes, there were legitimate users of the site, but the vast, VAST majority of it was pirated content, which Kim Dotcom and his friends were making MILLIONS of dollars from. If anything, this shows that there is zero need for SOPA when the current system can deal with offenders just like this - but of course the RIAA and MPAA would rather just control the kill switch themselves.

The majority of music that artists actually release for free is hosted there. I use it almost daily to get this music. Also game files for modding, program patches and all sorts of things.

Sure, I've seen the occasional hosted movie or music file that isn't legit, but I've seen just as many been removed.

Yes, Megaupload are shady bastards who know what they are doing, but fuck they host a good service and there is PLENTY of legitimate content on it. And to speculate on the ratio of legit to not is just silly. It could be either way.

 

[Daverson]

I still don't see how Megaupload can be charged for money-laundering, racketeering or conspiracy.
their revenue came from ads and people who bought premium, both of which are perfectly legal so there isn't any money to launder.
sure, they got more traffic by cutting copyrighted material some slack, but they took no illegal action themselves.

they are also a registrated and legitimate business, so racketeering goes out the window as well, this isn't the bloody maffia, they just found a loophole in the system and abused the fuck out of it, nothing technically illegal so what is this charge based on.

also, the conspiracy charge, to me, sounds a lot like:"but you were thinking it.".

Have a read of the indictment, there's plenty of conspiracy there, A whole section titled overt acts, starting page 28 (the good stuff starts about page 32) more than proves megaupload employees were aware the service was being used to illegal ends, and even aiding it to line their own pockets.

On or about February 21, 2007, VAN DER KOLK sent an e-mail to ORTMANN entitled "2 reward payment files." Attached to the e-mail was a file containing Megaupload.com users? e-mail addresses and reward payments for that time period, which ranged from $100 to $500. For one user that was paid $300, VAN DER KOLK wrote, "30849 files, mainly Mp3z, some copyrighted but most of them have a very small number of downloads per file." For other users, all of which were selected for reward payments of $100 by the MegaConspiracy, he wrote the following: "Our old famous number one on MU, still some illegal files but I think he deserves a payment"; "Loads of PDF files (looks like scanned magazines)"; "looks like vietnamese DVD rips"; "This user was paid last time has mainly split RAR files, howevermore than 50% deleted through abuse reports."

On or about February 5, 2007, VAN DER KOLK sent an e-mail to ORTMANN entitled "reward payments". Attached to the e-mail was a text file listing thefollowing proposed reward amounts, the Megaupload.com username, and the content they uploaded:
100 USD [USERNAME DELETED] 10+ Full popular DVD rips (split files), a fewsmall porn movies, some software with keygenerators (warez)
100 USD [USERNAME DELETED] 5845 files in his account, mainly Vietnamese content
100 USD [USERNAME DELETED] Popular DVD rips
100 USD [USERNAME DELETED] Some older DVD rips + unknown (Italian serries?) rar files
1500 USD [USERNAME DELETED] known paid user (vietnamese content)
The last individual received at least $55,000 from the Mega Conspiracy through transfers from PayPal Inc., as part of the "Uploader Rewards" program.

You know the "industrial" level of piracy that you hear about? That's what you're looking at here. They were more than aware their servers were being used for illegal means, yet instead of removing the content, they decided to profit from it, and cut a share with the original providers.

You don't need a fedora and a Godfather to be part of organized crime.