Why the Dragon Age 2 hate is GOOD

[Twilight_guy]

Your comment about reusing art assets made me cringe. You have no idea how many times art assets get reused in games. Most of time they just get rearranged enough for you to not notice. Those tricky level designers...

OT: I support the notion of not releasing a game until its done but I feel your other argument may have been too strong. There is a very fine line between "not removing features and important elements" and "making everything static and wallowing." Sometimes you need to rip out some guts to try and implement a new and interesting system and sometime new ideas fail (horribly). There has a to be the freedom to experiment and possibly see things blow up in your face. No top of that... games change. Just because the original was one way does not necessarily mean the upteen one has to be the same. Isn't that why people hat Zelda because it doesn't change? There needs to be a chance to experiment and fail or a game series is doomed to remake the same game forever.

In addition, although I'm against rushing I also know that its hard to nail down a certain length that a game will be developed in. So many factors influence how long a game takes to be "finished." Even then, games are never finished... ever. There is always more tweaking and improvements that can be made. Its always a matter of figuring out a point where its not done but its close enough or its not done but we got to ship it. Publishers and developers don't have some exact formula. They can take a stab at it and they know when its going to be a rush job but this field also requires careful evaluation. Also keep in mind that not everyone is Valve and can delay their game indefinitely people got to eat and that means releasing games on a regular schedule wither they are fully done or not. I am against clear rush job though.

 

[Mushroom 118i]

EDIT: Deleted own post. Going to make own topic as its kind of a tangent from this one.

 

[Madkipz]

the 10 Steps taken by haters to hate game.
(1) Play the demo
(2) post that the demo is sucks.
(3) get told that the demo is not indicative of how the game will play out.
(4) Preorder the game
(5) Play the game from start to finish multiple times.
(6) Point out multiple of layered flaws of the game, call it worse than dynasty warriors.
(7) Get told off by blind ea fanboys that you probably did not even play the game, that its a 10/10, its epic, has choice, not linear at all and the biggest immersive experience since Mass effect 2.
(8) Replay the game twice more just to be sure.
(9) By this time any hater of the game has played it trough 6 times on multiple difficulties, providing pages upon pages of hateposts a day.
(10) EA doesnt care because even the haters brought the game and will probably buy DA3 aswell.

 

[kailash]

I had a longer post, but I realized I only had one point in the end; fuck the publishers for buying up devs and making them robots spitting out clones and "safe" games instead of using their creativity. Oh and god forbid they let a game or two have a nisched fanbase anymore, jeez.

 

[kingcom]

Bethesda: "Woah, did you see what happened to Bioware when they tried to release a crappy dumbed down rushed console sequel when the original was a deep classic PC RPG?? Let's make sure we don't do the same for Skyrim."

Obsidian Oblivion and DA:O = Deep classic PC RPGs?

Historical revisionism is alive and well, it seems.

Deeper than current RPGs and definitely a throwback to Baldurs gate.

Comparison on shallow games does not make it deep.

Also, claimed to be a throwback to BG but I would disagree on many levels.

 

[voetballeeuw]

I enjoyed DA:O and DA2. I realize that DA2 was rushed, and creates an illusion of choice in many instances, but it gave me the chance to be part of Thedas's lore. The characters interested me, and the story was epic. I read every codex entry I could find, and explored every crevice. I can overlook the copy paste dungeons and other flaws, for these reasons. And hell, if that makes me a consoletard who's ruining the RPG genre then so be it. And for more relevance, I agree that criticism is definitely necessary--as long as it makes valid point. I saw a thread earlier today where the OP complained that DA2 didn't have misses.

 

[Zanaxal]

Well people still bought Dragon Age 1 even though the gameplay was boring.

Most people who played elder scrolls III (Not a kid at oblivion release) enjoyed that alot more then oblivion so i doubt rpg's are going to be getting better anytime soon.

They just seem to be getting more mainstream and dumbed down (which means simplified combat, stats system, inventory etc.) and then copy pasted a couple times to add length.

I would just wish for once i could play with a my own party setup and not having to add a bunch of unlikeable characters.

It's kind of good they failed, hopefully witcher 2 can get game of the year now and get the creds it finally deserved. Stands as a shining jewel in a ocean of low-mediocrity of copypaste rpgs.

 

[FieryTrainwreck]

I'm playing DA2. I'm enjoying it. I prefer DA1. Those are my "biases".

The DA2 superfans need to decide something, though. Is the DA2 hate isolated, typical internet nonsense? Or is it obnoxiously prevalent and widespread?

Because it can't fucking be both.

Also, the game can't be viewed as a sales success at this point. They had a boatload of presales, helped by preorder specials. They had the goodwill created by the well-received original (something like 3.2 million total sales and counting for DA1). Yet DA2 is only a few thousand units ahead of where its predecessor was at this time. I doubt it has the same legs as DA1, which was an entirely new IP (and those typically take a while to gather steam).

I think there's a very good chance the negative word-of-mouth, message board assaults, and user-review bombings have impacted the sales of DA2. And if that's the case, I think it could be a very good thing for DA3.

 

[Guitarmasterx7]

To draw in people who are too impatient to equip gear to every member of your party, they just make it so you can't, a la Mass Effect 2. I'd hate to see things like this continue as a trend.

I think they did that so your allies would keep their intended character designs, which I kind of prefer being as most of the armor and helmets in Origins looked lame anyways.

To be honest the only thing I preferred about Origins was that it was this big epic adventure and 2 basically took place in the same city for pretty much the whole game. The reusing location thing was fairly dodgy as well.

 

[Elamdri]

the real fans like how it was.

What is a "real fan"

Is that opposed to say, an imaginary fan, that only lives in the dreams of developers?

Real fun is nothing more than a camouflaged ego boost. Games simply make the pathetic feel better since they are probably in real life too. The entire design is based on creating a fake feeling of superiority where there i none... Its fake and pathetic but i guess common humans like it since they cant feel better about themselves without any non-buyable way... And thats where 90-95% of humanity is in, making this type of design almost needed in EVERY game...

Another kind of fun could be the excitement, adrenaline. In game where there is high speed and lethality, that is fun.

One rare form of fun is when you actually love the game design itself, and love the game even when you lose. This is very rare since 95% of humanity is therefore gets annoyed when they lose and dont feel so "good", but of course they can always blame luck and other things for their pathetic skill

I said "fan" not "fun"...

 

[Continuity]

Bethesda: "Woah, did you see what happened to Bioware when they tried to release a crappy dumbed down rushed console sequel when the original was a deep classic PC RPG?? Let's make sure we don't do the same for Skyrim."

Obsidian Oblivion and DA:O = Deep classic PC RPGs?

Historical revisionism is alive and well, it seems.

Deeper than current RPGs and definitely a throwback to Baldurs gate.

Take it back, sir, lest I punch ye through teh internets.

Comparing DAO to BG is like comparing Daikatana to half-life.

OT: well I'm gad I'm no longer the only one crying out about wave after wave of content reduction and "streamlining" (read simplifying), there is no such thing as a simple RPG, that completely misses the point. The more arcane the better. Srsly, the is no such thing as an RPG that is too complex to be a good game.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

I know a lot of people are tired of all the DA2 hate/debate, but I can't get enough of it. See, EA/Bioware, like a lot of modern pubs/devs, took a lot of things for granted with DA2. Bad things. Traditionally, they've gotten away with this shit. Seems like DA2, for whatever reason, is the straw that broke the camel's back. I'm thankful for that, and I'll try to explain why.

Let's get the most obvious bit out of the way; the game was horribly rushed. You can see it in the design shortcuts ("waves"...), the shamelessly reused assets, the inconsistent modeling (Bethany's hands...), and the overall lack of content compared to the first game. Whether you prefer the sequel or not, you can't really argue that DA1 had significantly more raw "stuff". Was that a product of an extra three years in development? Of course. But that's the point, isn't it? For whatever reason, publishers have been leaning on devs to finish projects unreasonably fast, and the end result is inferior games. I hope DA2 represents some actual fucking pushback on this issue. It'd be nice to send a very public and (hopefully) financial message to EA (and the like) that we want polished, fleshed-out products - not super-rushed sequels.

That brings me to my second point. Devs/pubs have this incessant need to expand their audience (aka sales), and the "best" way to accomplish this is through broadening the appeal of the product. This means changing it, and not always for the best. Frequently, it means removing whole aspects of the original title in order to garner a new fanbase - and relying on the unwavering loyalty of your existing fanbase, whom you expect to support your game based on name recognition and even nostalgia. And that's bullshit. If you're going to call something Dragon Age while removing a decent chunk of what defined the original game, you absolutely deserve a ton of hate. You listened to the board members who told you to keep the same IP while drastically altering the product because it's a "no risk" proposition for them. People who liked the first game will buy the second, and maybe some new people will, too. Win/win, right? Sure it is, if you endorse dishonesty as a policy.

TLDR version: if they're going to hijack IPs for mass consumption AND rush them out the door with no concern for quality, it's up to the community to call them on that shit. They do that stuff because it makes them more money. If a bunch of nasty word-of-mouth and user-reviews puts a big enough dent in their sales, there's a chance they might not pull that bs on their future projects. Even if you love DA2, you have to acknowledge that it represents some pretty negative trends in this industry. Flying in the face of those trends means more good games for all of us.

Remember when they tried to turn Cole of InFamous into a fucking frat boy? People went nuts and got them to change it back. We need more of that to keep the goddamn board members and focus groups out of our creative spaces.

So by all means, ***** away.

I completely agree. I smirk when I see a new DA2 topic. This may sound mean, but I hope DA2 flops in terms of sales. That would send Bioware the message that ME3 and any future games had better be up to par because we won't accept anything less. I hate how smug BW has gotten. They criticized Origins for having combat that "felt like you were rolling dice in the background." Wow, so the game designed specifically to play like that--gasp!--plays like that. If you want to make a grab at a larger audience BW then that is fine; just be honest about it. Don't piss on me and tell me it is raining.

 

[Pearwood]

Well as much as I liked the first game the combat in it was AWFUL, the sequel seems to have fixed that.

 

[Littaly]

I kind of agree with the OP. Even though I think the hate for DAII is vastly exaggerated (let's face it, for all the things it did wrong it also did a lot of things right), it's probably for the best. If community input has any effect on the game development whatsoever, then the best thing to do is probably to stop the slide down the slippery slope before it goes too far, even if it means a somewhat exaggerated reaction.

 

[Anti Nudist Cupcake]

I'm not gonna read all the comments but i'm just gonna push the little "I AGREE" button and say that anyone who disagrees are merely illusions and should be ignored. Because anybody who thinks that we should let EA and Bioware get away with bad quality is a fool.

 

[Smertnik]

Nothing wrong with streamlining, in my opinion. But yeah, it's a shame that the game has been rushed.

 

[Doug]

the real fans like how it was.

What is a "real fan"

Is that opposed to say, an imaginary fan, that only lives in the dreams of developers?

Well, a real fan. Someone who actually LIKES it. If you dont like a game, then you are not a real fan. Maybe you play it for some reason, friends most likely, but you dont really like it. Im not talking about liking to the point of fanboy/girl, but that you like the game and would just want it to be better so you can like it more. I find when people suggest how to change a game they dont like to one they do, it would make more sense to play SOMETHING ELSE. Dont change the game I like as it was to some different game you probably wont even play just because you dont know when you dont like a style or genre. I dont like country music. I dont say how they could make it better, I just listen to something else.

I think you're missing the point. If you are not a fan of the game, you're just not a fan. There's no such thing as a "Real Fan," there is just a fan or not a fan. There isn't some sort of fan+ status where you're like a normal fan, but better.

Fine. Remove the word real from infront of fan. Point still stands. Really I mean by real fan as someone who is a fan, compaired to a fake fan being someone giving improvements for a game they dont even like.
So really, it is you who is missing the point, my point.

I was a fan of both Dragon Age 1 and Dragon Age 2, even though I can see the flaws in both. Does that make me a real or fake fan?

 

[Deviluk]

I actually liked DA2...the first time around. When they streamline it down so much that nothing can really change on a second or third playthrough, why kind of RPG is that? Also the story I found was just not good. Not epic at all.

OP: I agree with you on that. Never thought of it like that either. Lets complain away!

 

[AlternatePFG]

Okay, I really liked DA2 on the first playthrough. I was able to ignore the lazy ass design for that time, and I thought it was pretty fun. Played again as a mage, still thought it was fun. Tried one more playthrough with a warrior, and suddenly I never wanted to touch the game again.

It's lazy, but it's a still a good game. I really wish EA gave BioWare more time, because as it stands, I've already mostly forgotten about DA2. It's not as memorable for me as the first game, mostly because the sidequests take place on the same goddamn map. Seriously, there is no excuse for there only being like a half a dozen dungeon layouts.

 

[googleback]

Agreed, the game is ALRIGHT but nothing to write home about. and I dont like the "drug dealer" methodology that Bioware has been employing of late...