Why There Is No Future For Old Games

Casual Shinji

Should've gone before we left.
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Johnny Novgorod said:
... the only way to run yesterday's games is to own yesterday's hardware.
I never got this attitude from PC gamers, as if consoles turned into dust whenever a new generation comes along.
Dude, man, Shamus: my PS2 works fine.
This would be fine if a) PS2's were still being manufactured b) PS2's never break down, and c) all electronics aren't designed to eventually break down so you'll buy new ones.

The answer to all three being 'They don't'.

Now obviously, everything is fleeting, but with games it's fucking ridiculous. The only silver lining here is that my interest in games might desolve with age so I won't care anymore that I can't play the "classics".
 

Tiamat666

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I don't agree with Shamus on this one, at all.

1. Yes, GoG!
2. Wine is actually pretty good today and I think it will run most games out of the box. I was amazed that I was able to run all of Steam in Wine and start Skyrim from within and it ran without a hitch. And it was easy too.
3. Virtual Machines will make it possible. Also, compatibility settings. It's possible to run almost all the games since Windows 95 on Windows 7 by tweaking around a bit.

If there is one compelling reason why old games don't have a future it's the impending age of Virtual Reality. Newer games might become so overwhelmingly immersive and interesting, that people will just not want to bother with anything less anymore.

Edit: 4. Fans. Time has proven that there are people out there that will program emulators to run just about anything, which is why it's possible today to play almost any game from any conceivable console on a PC.
 

Nurb

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Everyone was calling me crazy for saying that digital libraries instead of physical libraries, DRM (including steam), and other nonsense will mean people won't be able to play the games they bought 10-15 years down the road.

They think because you can rig 90's console and pc emulators, everything will be fine.
 

Random Gamer

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I agree with your point, Shamus. It's one I'm bitterly and deeply aware of, and the key reason why, when it comes to hobbies and free time, I've given first priority to gaming, before movies/series, music and books.
Unless I become blind, I'll be able to read my huge pile of unread books when I'm retired; I'm not so sure about music, pretty sure I won't be able to watch my DVDs, and dead sure the vast majority of my current games (including unplayed ones) will be unplayable unless the industry has experienced dramatic (pro-consumer) changes.
Heck, I've had games 5-years old unplayable on Steam because of drivers, and the then 8-y old DVD of the Pirates! remake unreadable because of shitty code (had to buy it again, for dirt cheap, at Gamersgate).
On the other hand, I have a 22 years old Mac who still runs, so some software and hardware can have a somewhat longer life expectancy (if I ever feel the need to play SimCity 2000 or original Civilization again).
 

Therumancer

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I think the obvious is being missed, at the end of the day I think it's not all that difficult to sort out the problems if the people involved really want to. The problem is that old IPs like "No One Lives Forever" have an indirect value that companies do not want to give up. It comes down to high end IP trolling, a lot of which is handled behind the scenes by lawyers out of the public's eye. The more IPs a company has the easier it becomes to both try and shave pieces off of someone else's work, as well as establish precedent to defend your own work if someone tries to do it to you. If say someone accuses you of ripping off their 3rd Person Space Marine Shooter, the more IPs you have that are in some way similar to what you released and were unchallenged allows you to say "it was based off of these things". Similar to having the rights to old engines where you can claim an innovation came by building off of an engine you own, as opposed to stealing from someone else. Perhaps more relevantly to something like "No One Lives Forever" is that it was a well done, but ultimately fairly generic game, that plays in a common sense fashion for the genera. Those who hold that IP are thus in a position to try and shave pieces off of anyone else who tries to make a spy game, especially one set in the 1960s using old spy movie/TV series tropes. There were rumors that the whole reason why the "Alpha Protocol" franchise failed was that once development was started the publishers started getting challenges specifically off of this IP due to vague similarities, enough where it slowed development, and involved the modification of certain game systems, the game came out late, buggy, over budget, and with enough potential baggage that nobody was in a hurry to try again, and allegedly this is why what should be a popular genera has not seen anyone else making an effort to revive it. There were also rumors about WoTC which owns TSR's "Top Secret" RPG license wanting to do video games based off of it (ORION Vs. WEB) and giving up for similar reasons. This could all be untrue mind you, I get all this from rumors, speculation, and some pretty old discussions, but the bottom line is that old style 60s spy stuff is popular and pretty much everyone who wants to mess with it winds up being inspired by things like "The Man From UNCLE" or even "Get Smart" (which was parodying the 60s spy genera before Austin Powers was remotely conceived of). The thing is that video game IPs can be odd which is why so much defense is needed and why Tim Langdell even tried his form of copyright infringement, because at the high end unless your holding a lot of cards to defend yourself, someone can make broad claims to an IP. Using acronyms like say HARM and the like which invoke images of SPECTRE and CHAOS and others can ridiculously enough lead to people claiming anyone who wasn't as quick to rip off the 60s spy series either can't work with the IP or owes them money. What's more given time everything comes back around, whomever has the "No One Lives Forever" rights is probably sitting on them, waiting to bring out that bit of precedent to try and exclusively develop within the genera when it becomes a serious fad again... not well articulated, but there are my thoughts based on how I've heard about how the games industry operates, and that with video games it's much easier in a lot of cases to make IP claims with broad strokes than with other media.
 

Zipa

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Dec 19, 2010
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I would have to disagree with you here Shamus, there are quite a number of options to get older pc games to work.

1. Compatibility settings for Windows , this works surprisingly often given the huge changes between old and new versions of operating systems.

2. Emulation, you can emulate a lot of old games pretty easily now especially the older consoles like the PS1/2 for example.

3. Companies like money and are often all to happy to sell you a "new" version of the game or a HD remake that works on current systems at the least. Also GoG fix a lot of older games so they will at least function on a modern PC. Granted sometimes you can't get a reboot of some games because of IP law hell as is the case with No one lives Forever and i'm sure a number of others as well.

4. Wine is a thing now, if you are using a Linux disto Wine is getting pretty damn good at making both older games work and Windows only games. It is also not an emulator (Wine is an acronym of "Wine is not an emulator")

5. Virtual machines, You can run a Virtual machine of an older or different operating system that will work with your older games.

6. Dual boot, pretty simple really, have either a separate partition with an older OS on your hard drive or another hard drive with a different OS on it.

And sometimes inexplicably you luck out and find a game that works without having to do any of the above, my old copy of Earth 2150: Th moon project works on Windows 8 without having to do any of the above for example.
 

Callate

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Good grief, I can't even get Fallout 3 running on Windows 7.

(Which is part of the reason I'm likely to continue running a dual-boot, multi-OS machine as long as possible...)

It seems to me that a significant portion of this is legal. If Microsoft would be more lenient in letting others use code of long-dead operating systems (or laws were more permissive in regard to letting others reverse-engineer them,) several of the issues listed would be, if not easy, at least visibly surmountable.
 

Bad Jim

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Therumancer said:
Perhaps more relevantly to something like "No One Lives Forever" is that it was a well done, but ultimately fairly generic game, that plays in a common sense fashion for the genera. Those who hold that IP are thus in a position to try and shave pieces off of anyone else who tries to make a spy game, especially one set in the 1960s using old spy movie/TV series tropes.
I'm not sure that would work. They can't sue for copyright infringement unless content is being stolen and trademarks must be maintained through use. Since NOLF hasn't been sold for quite some time, a trademark claim would go nowhere. In fact, I'd say the reason why we are getting numerous remakes is because the lawyers pointed that out.
 

Steve the Pocket

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josemlopes said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
... the only way to run yesterday's games is to own yesterday's hardware.
I never got this attitude from PC gamers, as if consoles turned into dust whenever a new generation comes along.
Dude, man, Shamus: my PS2 works fine.
Seriously, you know that your PS2 wont last forever, I rather know that any computer, now or in the future, can run a PS2 game using an emulator.

My Xbox worked fine untill 2 years ago, now there are plenty of games that I cant play.
Then buy a new one. And by new I mean used, but still easy enough to obtain cheaply. By the time PS2s and Xboxes become genuinely rare enough that they become prohibitively expensive, emulators will have gotten sophisticated enough -- and computers powerful enough to run them will be common enough -- to make that a non-issue.

Magmarock said:
Old games have a much more sturdy future then the new ones in all honesty.
That... was literally the exact point of the article. The games that are old now are easy enough to get running, but once more recent ones get to be that age, they might not be.
 

Magmarock

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Steve the Pocket said:
.

Magmarock said:
Old games have a much more sturdy future then the new ones in all honesty.
That... was literally the exact point of the article. The games that are old now are easy enough to get running, but once more recent ones get to be that age, they might not be.

My point is when these games get old they should still work fine. Emulating windows XP can already be done
 

Nazulu

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I don't know about this. I'm not an expert at all, but one thing I always see is there will always be a dedicated group to keep it alive. Even the original chapters of old MMO's I can still find and play with other people.
 

FoolKiller

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Johnny Novgorod said:
... the only way to run yesterday's games is to own yesterday's hardware.
I never got this attitude from PC gamers, as if consoles turned into dust whenever a new generation comes along.
Dude, man, Shamus: my PS2 works fine.
Me too. Hell my NES is happy and chugging along at 25 years old.

I see the problem occurring, at least for consoles, starting this generation because there is so much interconnectivity with the net. Sure they aren't technically always online, but they are crippled when they aren't.

Even PS3 and 360 digital games are a black box. What happens when those systems are not allowed to log in anymore?

Personally I think the PCs have a better chance at the future, but it will take a lot of really smart people to do it.
 

theuprising

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DO NOT question emulators. We have emulation of things as recent as the Wii. I can run DS emulation at 60fps on my 6 yr old gaming laptop. Old games will be fine, but the multiplayer experience will be forgotten, or, not entirely.

If the modern trend is anything to go by multiplayer genre's will be kept alive by indies, or heck ppl still playing that old game. Jedi Knight Academy is still kicking with a userbase dedicated to dueling. And if you want a modern equivalent, look at the independent title, Blade Symphony. Things simply don't die. They are remade. Where there is potential profit there is are mediocrely talented indie devs looking to cash in.
 

theuprising

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Nazulu said:
I don't know about this. I'm not an expert at all, but one thing I always see is there will always be a dedicated group to keep it alive. Even the original chapters of old MMO's I can still find and play with other people.
Yeah, I don't know how ppl reverse engineer MMO's but really any MMO that had at least a cult following you can find a private server on. Never heard of Ace Online? Not many have, but if you ever wanted to play without the grind, there's 5-7 private servers waiting for you.
 

Fox12

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Meaningless, meaningless, everything is meaningless. What does man gain from all his labor? Generations come and generations go. There is no remembrance of men of old, and even those who are yet to come will not be remembered by those who follow.

 

rembrandtqeinstein

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If only copyright was limited to the original 14 year timeframe this wouldn't be an issue. Games would fall into the public domain after 15 years and be taken over by communities of enthusiasts.

Really that is happening now, just under the table and the fans have to run and hide if a lawyer from the IP owner so much as thinks about them.

The only games that can be "lost" are ones with pure server side logic like Diablo 3.

DRM isn't an issue, there isn't one that hasn't been cracked relatively fast.

IP laws are easily worked around by hosting in a country that doesn't kiss the US government's ass.

Old hardware can run for decades. It might not be readily available to the masses but it will be lovingly preserved by hobbyists for the nostalgia value.

And finally VMs can perfectly emulate older hardware and if it can't it only takes one bored nerd to make it work.

If the emulation scene stays as strong as it is now we have nothing to worry about.
 

gyroscopeboy

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Kaleion said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
... the only way to run yesterday's games is to own yesterday's hardware.
I never got this attitude from PC gamers, as if consoles turned into dust whenever a new generation comes along.
Dude, man, Shamus: my PS2 works fine.
I used to think that way but then my GameCube and my PS1 died, N64 is still kicking though but it's kinda hard getting it to work, never does in the first try, anyway all of the old consoles will stop working eventually and CDs and DVDs won't last forever, so even owning the old hardware isn't much of a solution not to mention that hardware takes space and that's something that not everyone has.
Man, the n64 was built like the Terminator. Mine is still kicking 18 years later.
 

Shuu

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Good article. But actually Shamus, the DMCA does state that one my legally bypass DRM if that DRM is preventing the product from performing as it should.
As with everything copyright related, this is kind of spotty, but for example, I bought a movie on Blu-Ray the a few months ago, and the DRM is contains worked SO WELL that I simply couldn't watch it. The legally purchased Blu-Ray wouldn't play on my legally purchased, Blu-Ray compatible disk drive.
In that instance, I have a strong case that it was necessary to circumvent the DRM on that disk in order to get the product to function as intended by the manufacturers.

I also vaguely recall seeing some sort of leeway in relation to historical preservation, but I also think I remember it being very loosely defined.

I'd find exactly where in the DMCA it says all this, but... no I wouldn't, that takes too long;D
Either way, it's shonky and gives copyright holders way too much power.
 

Kae

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gyroscopeboy said:
Kaleion said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
... the only way to run yesterday's games is to own yesterday's hardware.
I never got this attitude from PC gamers, as if consoles turned into dust whenever a new generation comes along.
Dude, man, Shamus: my PS2 works fine.
I used to think that way but then my GameCube and my PS1 died, N64 is still kicking though but it's kinda hard getting it to work, never does in the first try, anyway all of the old consoles will stop working eventually and CDs and DVDs won't last forever, so even owning the old hardware isn't much of a solution not to mention that hardware takes space and that's something that not everyone has.
Man, the n64 was built like the Terminator. Mine is still kicking 18 years later.
Yeah, my cousin's N64 died but only because the idiot spilled soda all over it, those things are well made, credit to nintendo for making consoles that last so long, then again my GC is dead so who knows what n64s secret is.
 

vagabondwillsmile

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Still wating for a way to play Shadow Complext that doesn't involve an xbox. It is the one and only game on any of the three iterations of the console in which I have even the remotest of interest.

I don't know, I'm sure some titles will disappear. And there will certainly be gaps in availability. But what GOG doesn now - just as an example - they, or others, will do in the future. Technology will always improve.