Wikileaks

[AndyFromMonday]

I fully support him. I find that the government has kept way to many secrets over the years and that it's time to expose them, sort of like sticking it to the man. The general population should be made aware of what the government they installed is doing with their resources.

 

[kokoska]

He committed espionage, and the US general who helped him committed treason, both are very serious crimes. They broke the law and should be punished.

So then Woodward and Bernstein were commiting espionage too?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watergate_scandal

of course it does. for citizens and soldiers, a breakdown in diplomacy leaves only hostility. wars evolve in the absence of diplomacy, and war is paid for by everyone. furthermore there are economic reprecussions, as tensions between nations rises. also, as an american taxpayer,(you may or may not b, idk) you paid for the battle plans wikileaks nulified, and you will pay for the diplomatic damages in more transitive ways than the lawsuit huffington post cited. context.

Yes good Americans pay their taxes for battleplans whose content they dont know.
Oh and by the way: Battleplans? From what ive heard this far, the leaked Info is rather vague.
Like: this guy told us, that we might want to bomb this part of the earth sometime...
But maybe i got it wrong...

i was specifically thinking of the US nato plan to defend east Europe from russia should shit hit the fan. battle plans may be a bit strong, but the point remains that destruction to diplomacy has monetary and human consequences.

 

[Poptart Invasion]

I'm not taking sides here, but I'd like to point out that two wrongs don't make a right; it's a fallacy. That he has not sourced his claims does not justify you doing the same.

That was the whole point. Well done on spotting it, however.

I don't quite follow.

me neither. sure, i dont have any university statement, or non-political, non-commercial story to link. all i have is google (feel free to fact-check me) and a healthy dose of common sense.

i am, believe it or not, a rational human being, and if youve got some ironclad piece of information to blow me away, just come out with it and, hell, win a convert.

 

[dark-amon]

I'm all for Wikileaks. Goverments whine about how the documents they release damages relationships between countries, but they are the ones that do the damage. Wikileaks just reveal it.

 

[dcrane]

"Governments lie" IF Stone
And the journalists that are supposed to hold them accountable when they lie are, instead, in bed/embedded with them. If we had an independent 5th estate (and there are some like Democracy Now), Wikileaks wouldn't be needed.

 

[Simonism451]

[...]
i was specifically thinking of the US nato plan to defend east Europe from russia should shit hit the fan. battle plans may be a bit strong, but the point remains that destruction to diplomacy has monetary and human consequences.

I see your point, but the problem is, who should decide which info shall be classified and which not.
Though I can understand why such infos would be restricted, I still want to know about the stuff that's listed here:
http://sowhyiswikileaksagoodthingagain.com/

 

[Simonism451]

[...]
i was specifically thinking of the US nato plan to defend east Europe from russia should shit hit the fan. battle plans may be a bit strong, but the point remains that destruction to diplomacy has monetary and human consequences.

I see your point, but the problem is, who should decide which info shall be classified and which not.
Though I can understand why such infos would be restricted, I still want to know about the stuff that's listed here:
http://sowhyiswikileaksagoodthingagain.com/

 

[Simonism451]

Sorry double post

 

[mr_rubino]

He committed espionage, and the US general who helped him committed treason, both are very serious crimes. They broke the law and should be punished.

So then Woodward and Bernstein were commiting espionage too?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watergate_scandal

of course it does. for citizens and soldiers, a breakdown in diplomacy leaves only hostility. wars evolve in the absence of diplomacy, and war is paid for by everyone. furthermore there are economic reprecussions, as tensions between nations rises. also, as an american taxpayer,(you may or may not b, idk) you paid for the battle plans wikileaks nulified, and you will pay for the diplomatic damages in more transitive ways than the lawsuit huffington post cited. context.

Yes good Americans pay their taxes for battleplans whose content they dont know.
Oh and by the way: Battleplans? From what ive heard this far, the leaked Info is rather vague.
Like: this guy told us, that we might want to bomb this part of the earth sometime...
But maybe i got it wrong...

i was specifically thinking of the US nato plan to defend east Europe from russia should shit hit the fan. battle plans may be a bit strong, but the point remains that destruction to diplomacy has monetary and human consequences.

The statement, not by you, at the beginning of the thread for the anti-wl crowd:
Flesh-and-blood humans will be put in mortal danger by this man's reckless troublemaking!
The general trend of your posts:
Assange made the Italian and Turkish PMs cry. Also, taxes. And... transitive diplomatic damages. Unforseen catastrophes. Vague doom approaches!

If you have to backpedal this hard, just admit you jumped the gun.

 

[Simonism451]

All my friends went on the site, expecting that a shadowy cabal of rich people secretly running the world has been uncovered along with aliens in area 51. Sadly no really important or controversial data has been uncovered that shows the government to be evil, and the fact that it has been uncovered might harm innocent lives. So no, they're simply trolling.

Uhum...
*cough*
http://sowhyiswikileaksagoodthingagain.com/
That link again
*cough*

 

[mr_rubino]

All my friends went on the site, expecting that a shadowy cabal of rich people secretly running the world has been uncovered along with aliens in area 51. Sadly no really important or controversial data has been uncovered that shows the government to be evil, and the fact that it has been uncovered might harm innocent lives. So no, they're simply trolling.

Uhum...
*cough*
http://sowhyiswikileaksagoodthingagain.com/
That link again
*cough*

If you post it enough times, it makes it... true?
Kinda like that guy who proved Fox is a reliable information source by showing us that JesusLovesTheBaldEagle.blogspot.com mirrored its article on the subject.

 

[Ekonk]

Wikileaks is who watches the watchmen.

A government left to its own without any sort of retaliation from its people for the atrocities it commits, simply because it hides those atrocities from them, will soon turn into something ugly.

Wikileaks shows atrocities and therefore turns the American government more transparant than Obama ever promised.

This is why I think Wikileaks is a force of good. They have to cut back on publishing informant names and putting them in danger though, that was kind of stupid.

 

[Simonism451]

All my friends went on the site, expecting that a shadowy cabal of rich people secretly running the world has been uncovered along with aliens in area 51. Sadly no really important or controversial data has been uncovered that shows the government to be evil, and the fact that it has been uncovered might harm innocent lives. So no, they're simply trolling.

Uhum...
*cough*
http://sowhyiswikileaksagoodthingagain.com/
That link again
*cough*

If you post it enough times, it makes it... true?
Kinda like that guy who proved Fox is a reliable information source by showing us that JesusGodAndTheBaldEagle.blogspot.com mirrored its article on the subject.

Well only one more time after Dr. Seuss (or was it Lewis Caroll?)

Seriously now: The articles on the site all have, what seem to be reliable sources. So I guess it's already true.
And seeing how MrGleefullVisagedeux missed it the first time (no offense) it seemed like a good idea.

 

[kokoska]

The statement, not by you, at the beginning of the thread for the anti-wl crowd:
Flesh-and-blood humans will be put in mortal danger by this man's reckless troublemaking!
The general trend of your posts:
Assange made the Italian and Turkish PMs cry. Also, taxes. And... transitive diplomatic damages. Unforseen catastrophes. Vague doom approaches!

If you have to backpedal this hard, just admit you jumped the gun.

i dont think you get it. its not about vague doom prophecies, its about wieghing the pros and the cons of the leak.

the pros are that we now see how terrible war is. frankly, if this is revelation, you're naieve. knowing the gritty details of the atrocity of war is super in that it keeps gov. on its toes. good on wikileaks.

BUT

many of the leaks are not only counterproductive in nature, but destructive. this vague doom is not vague, its literal diplomatic tension that neednt be, and exists so you can get off on how empowered you now are. what good do these leaks do:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11933089
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11859472
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/11932041
you need to try and undertsand the difference between dirty laundry and intel that deserves to be kept in confidence. should everyone in the world know the nuclear launch codes? is that a good idea? should everyone be force to disclose their sexual orientation? the principle is the same, and while you might call this an abstraction, the truth is that many of the documents dislosed have no benefit in being public acess, but hold verifiable harms. the most apparent, in that its effect has been imediate, are the diplomatic tensions that have resulted between the leaders.

 

[Simonism451]

Wikileaks is who watches the watchmen.

A government left to its own without any sort of retaliation from its people for the atrocities it commits, simply because it hides those atrocities from them, will soon turn into something ugly.

Wikileaks shows atrocities and therefore turns the American government more transparant than Obama ever promised.

This is why I think Wikileaks is a force of good. They have to cut back on publishing informant names and putting them in danger though, that was kind of stupid.

Who watches the guys who watch the watchmen, though? Isnt a site like WikiLeaks rather vulnerable hoaxes?

 

[mike1921]

Only secrets the government should be allowed to keep are troop locations and things like that

and quite frankly

All my friends went on the site, expecting that a shadowy cabal of rich people secretly running the world has been uncovered along with aliens in area 51. Sadly no really important or controversial data has been uncovered that shows the government to be evil, and the fact that it has been uncovered might harm innocent lives. So no, they're simply trolling.

Uhum...
*cough*
http://sowhyiswikileaksagoodthingagain.com/
That link again
*cough*

If the stuff here (hiding illegal wiretapping in Canada) is true then we deserve any political losses we get from it.

 

[Ekonk]

Wikileaks is who watches the watchmen.

A government left to its own without any sort of retaliation from its people for the atrocities it commits, simply because it hides those atrocities from them, will soon turn into something ugly.

Wikileaks shows atrocities and therefore turns the American government more transparant than Obama ever promised.

This is why I think Wikileaks is a force of good. They have to cut back on publishing informant names and putting them in danger though, that was kind of stupid.

Who watches the guys who watch the watchmen, though? Isnt a site like WikiLeaks rather vulnerable hoaxes?

Considering that Assange has been arrested now, I'd say the watchmen watch the guy who watches the watchmen.

There is indeed some speculation regarding Assange, saying that he'd be quite an egomaniac. Someone like that would be unfit to watch the watchmen, no?
However, considering how he managed to make himself enemy of the state in the US, I'm disinclined to believe a single negative thing said about him, since it's probably all outright fabrication. Like that rape charge. ***** please.

 

[Mr Shrike]

Uber Snip!

You know, I went into that expecting a hail of complete and utter bullshit, but I find myself agreeing with you on this one. Well said, good sir.

I think there are things about each gov't that people (in general) do not need to know. Plus, if Assange goes and publishes a load of a gov't's "secret" documents, I can see why said gov't would be pretty pissed off.

This guy, I believe, means well, but is going about it the wrong way.

The rape allegations from Sweden, however, are utter bullshit...

 

[Yoshemo]

I think hes a hero. If the truth is dangerous, then I'm willing to be in danger

 

[Simonism451]

[...]

the pros are that we now see how terrible war is. frankly, if this is revelation, you're naieve. knowing the gritty details of the atrocity of war is super in that it keeps gov. on its toes. good on wikileaks.

[...]

Sorry but that's like saying "Well, that's just the way these people are" when you read about a genocide in an African country.
Many of the leaks didnt show the horror of war but actual warCRIMES. Violations against the Geneva Convention, which was accepted by the US.
And by covering up those crimes the US Goverement (Military?) violated it once more.

Nations who are party to these treaties must enact and enforce legislation penalizing any of these crimes.Nations are also obligated to search for persons alleged to commit these crimes, or ordered them to be committed, and to bring them to trial regardless of their nationality and regardless of the place where the crimes took place.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conventions#The_Geneva_Conventions_today