Will Joe Biden Drop Out of the Presidential Race

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
There were (are?) Republican "never Trump"(ers) . I don't know how their numbers compare to those that want Biden to step down. At this point though, I think anyone that believes there's a good chance Biden will step down are kidding themselves. Do you think that still a strong possibility? Would you want it?
There are a few governors who are anti-trump but that's pretty much it.

Unless Biden gets old people sick or something there is pretty much no chance of him stepping down, he was be a fool to step down at this point.
 
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Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that although Trump's handling of this disaster has been its own disaster, I don't think the US would have been culturally prepared even if Hillary was president. Regardless of any other policy differences, this has not only been a federal administration failure. It is a failure of government of every level across the country, and a failure of many of our citizens who refuse to do what they can to work together as a community. And the issues at the root of this failure go back decades, on both sides of the aisle, and to American culture itself.

Trump is responsible for death, but death was coming no matter how well the affair was handled.
I don't think you are wrong. While I'm sure she would have taken covid as the threat it was much sooner, we would see any mitigation efforts she put in place hampered by republicans going hard on the hoax angle, cheered on by the 'orange bastard's' twitter all the time. Its anyones guess if the protests would be more violent if she was in charge, the push back would almost certainly be much harder though.
 

tstorm823

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I don't think you are wrong. While I'm sure she would have taken covid as the threat it was much sooner, we would see any mitigation efforts she put in place hampered by republicans going hard on the hoax angle, cheered on by the 'orange bastard's' twitter all the time. Its anyones guess if the protests would be more violent if she was in charge, the push back would almost certainly be much harder though.
I mean, the early response from Democrats was largely to push back against racism against Chinese Americans. I see no reason why the US under Clinton would have responded differently than Italy.
 

lil devils x

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I don't think you are wrong. While I'm sure she would have taken covid as the threat it was much sooner, we would see any mitigation efforts she put in place hampered by republicans going hard on the hoax angle, cheered on by the 'orange bastard's' twitter all the time. Its anyones guess if the protests would be more violent if she was in charge, the push back would almost certainly be much harder though.
Though my thoughts in the above post were more on, if we didn't have republicans in control of anything, how much better this would have gone all around...
If Democrats had the white house, congress, and state leadership, we could have saved so many more lives and instead put the people who would be protesting to work helping instead of making everything worse.
 

lil devils x

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I mean, the early response from Democrats was largely to push back against racism against Chinese Americans. I see no reason why the US under Clinton would have responded differently than Italy.
Trump wouldn't have been there encouraging racism for Clinton to be mad about the racist comments being made by the president, she would have likely aligned with Germany on her actions and united in an international global response. You have to think about how she would not even give trump's comments the time of day if he were not president.
Trump not being president = What Trump says is insignificant.
 
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Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
I mean, the early response from Democrats was largely to push back against racism against Chinese Americans. I see no reason why the US under Clinton would have responded differently than Italy.
When trump finally did the travel ban from china, he even managed to fuck that up since it was already after the WHO had declared this a pandemic but we also already had cases here and on top of that, it was only a ban on chinese people, there were no restrictions on americans coming back, we didn't even test people. You have to have your head pretty far up an orange butt to think anyone else here would have failed as hard as trump has on pretty much every aspect of this.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Though my thoughts in the above post were more on, if we didn't have republicans in control of anything, how much better this would have gone all around...
If Democrats had the white house, congress, and state leadership, we could have saved so many more lives and instead put the people who would be protesting to work helping instead of making everything worse.
Unfortunately I think it is likely that if she did win, we would currently have republican control of both the house and senate, instead of just the senate. At least it would be pretty unlikely for even the best case for her to have the senate assuming only the presidential election in 2016 changed. Cause the 2018 senate elections just had more democratic seats up for reelection so it was statistically very very unlikely that would change.
 
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tstorm823

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Trump wouldn't have been there encouraging racism for Clinton to be mad about the racist comments being made by the president, she would have likely aligned with Germany on her actions and united in an international global response. You have to think about how she would not even give trump's comments the time of day if he were not president.
Trump not being president = What Trump says is insignificant.
You're misunderstanding. It's not about Trump. When a politician in Italy told people they should hug Chinese Italians in support, it wasn't about Trump. When Pelosi encouraged people to go to Chinatown at the start of the pandemic, it wasn't about Trump. When people started avoiding those places after hearing about a horrible virus coming from China, regardless of whether their behavior was justified, I guarantee they weren't thinking "what would Donald Trump do?"

It's not about Trump. You can't pretend that Hillary Clinton in office would remove all the worlds racial tensions.
 

gorfias

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There are a few governors who are anti-trump but that's pretty much it.

Unless Biden gets old people sick or something there is pretty much no chance of him stepping down, he was be a fool to step down at this point.
Jonah Goldberg wrote of Mike Dukakis that he was like a human pez dispenser that spit acid at old people. Yeah, Biden is not that :)

Great column btw. I think it offers some decent summations of the schism in the Republican party and goes off to the next topic I hope to see in this forum. Predictions about what a win by either Trump or Biden means. Where is the US headed in either event?

For this thread, I'm pretty much done: convinced that unless Biden gets the Epstein treatment, he will be the one facing Trump in the general election.
 
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tstorm823

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When trump finally did the travel ban from china, he even managed to fuck that up since it was already after the WHO had declared this a pandemic but we also already had cases here and on top of that, it was only a ban on chinese people, there were no restrictions on americans coming back, we didn't even test people.
Correct, we didn't test them. We strictly quarantined them for weeks after they entered the country.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Correct, we didn't test them. We strictly quarantined them for weeks after they entered the country.
Only for 3 days which isn't enough time to really be sure. Plus we already had cases here so again, it was too late to matter given how virulent the disease is and how much it requires the government to be on top of things with testing.
 

Tireseas

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Not that this hasn't been a stimulating conversation, but I think trying to have a conversation that requires exploration of two extremely diverse often-fluctuating ideologies (or "approaches to politics" if you're not a fan of the term ideology being applied to either of them) within the margins of a OP ultimately designed to discuss one of the candidates who can easily be described as both and neither probably isn't the ideal place to do this.

I've been meaning for years (like, 2013, because f-ck I'm internet old) to make a thread discussing conservatism and its various modern ideological branches (ex. fiscal conservatism, intellectual conservatism, social conservatism, paleo conservatism, etc.) because that genuinely interests me as someone who studied politics during her university years and was involved in Federal legislative politics (albeit as a congressional intern in the winter of 2010). Conservatism genuinely interests me as something to observe and study because it is, at times, so loosely defined from a contemporary standpoint that trying to answer "what is conservatism?" in a way that functionally encompasses all self-identified strains of its modern incarnations becomes genuinely difficult.

Hell, when it comes down to it, I still describe myself as "an intellectual conservative," (i.e. evidence-based approaches, favoring individual individual rights so long as they do not interfere with the rights of others, preference to start with smaller solutions over larger more-disruptive ones if they would achieve the same goal, a preference for maintaining and reforming institutions over dismantling and reforming, etc.) which, in turn, is why I tend to be a Progressive in the Senator Warren model, because her technocratic, scholarship-based approach fits into my idealized form of evidence-based policy approaches.

But, yeah, this is a thread mostly focused on Biden's presuming nomination.

(goddess, I miss footnotes)
 

lil devils x

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You're misunderstanding. It's not about Trump. When a politician in Italy told people they should hug Chinese Italians in support, it wasn't about Trump. When Pelosi encouraged people to go to Chinatown at the start of the pandemic, it wasn't about Trump. When people started avoiding those places after hearing about a horrible virus coming from China, regardless of whether their behavior was justified, I guarantee they weren't thinking "what would Donald Trump do?"

It's not about Trump. You can't pretend that Hillary Clinton in office would remove all the worlds racial tensions.
Going to Chinatown =\= going to Wuhan FYI. Looking asian does not mean you have the virus, that was the point they were making. Blaming China, or Asians at all for a pandemic that could have started anywhere is being irresponsible in the first place. Is that how China should behave if a Pandemic starts here? Trump's entire posturing on this was horrible in every aspect.
 

tstorm823

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Going to Chinatown =\= going to Wuhan FYI. Looking asian does not mean you have the virus, that was the point they were making. Blaming China, or Asians at all for a pandemic that could have started anywhere is being irresponsible in the first place. Is that how China should behave if a Pandemic starts here? Trump's entire posturing on this was horrible in every aspect.
That isn't the question. It's not whether that's right or wrong behavior. If Trump wasn't in office, people in California wouldn't have acted differently. Pelosi would have been in the same position and done the same thing. Arguing that a Democrat in the White House would have reacted more cautiously goes against all the Democrats that didn't.
 

lil devils x

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That isn't the question. It's not whether that's right or wrong behavior. If Trump wasn't in office, people in California wouldn't have acted differently. Pelosi would have been in the same position and done the same thing. Arguing that a Democrat in the White House would have reacted more cautiously goes against all the Democrats that didn't.
What do you mean the people would not have acted differently? Since when has Trump called it by it's actual name and used the words" COVID-19 or SARS-CoV-2? Having the President promoting it as a " Chinese problem" rather than a world wide problem that could have happened anywhere that we all need to be concerned with reduces the likelihood that Asian Americans would be targeted. Just like when the president called for injecting disinfectants we had an increase of cases of people doing so, we had an increase of attacks on Aisan Americans due to his words.

Of course having a democrat in the white house would have acted more cautiously because they would not have ignored the scientists as Trump did in the first place. Trump chose who he listens to and who he ignores. We do not have democrats claiming that "their genius brain" tells them they know better and to ignore the data and go with uninformed " hunches". We had to have deaths piling up before trump would listen to them at all. Like I stated already THIS is the difference between having someone competent and someone incompetent in the white house during a Pandemic:
Read this one and the one below it due to it being broken up due to character limits:

At least if we had Biden, or Hillary calling the shots, they would let the experts do their jobs and not pretend like their "Genius brains" know better.
 
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tstorm823

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Of course having a democrat in the white house would have acted more cautiously because they would not have ignored the scientists as Trump did in the first place. Trump chose who he listens to and who he ignores. We do not have democrats claiming that "their genius brain" tells them they know better and to ignore the data and go with uninformed " hunches". We had to have deaths piling up before trump would listen to them at all. Like I stated already THIS is the difference between having someone competent and someone incompetent in the white house during a Pandemic:
He explicitly listened to the scientists. They said jump, he said how high. I don't need to read your revision of history, I was, in fact, alive to witness it. I was alive to listen representatives on the CDC talk about how their early actions might seem extreme, but they'd rather be overcautious. I was alive to see states and medical groupds say the federal government was fully cooperative with them. I was alive to see a national health emergency declared the day after experts were warning Trump. You're not going to convince me to ignore my lying eyes, I watched it all happen.

There's no argument that Trump hasn't listened to experts, the most prominent experts have their platform because Trump gives them the podium and tells the media to ask them questions instead. Those experts say he followed their suggestions at every step.

There's little argument Trump made America unprepared beforehand. He may have suggested cuts, and then congress increased funding instead.

There are plenty of valid criticisms of Trump, but in this case, they are mostly criticisms of the status quo overall. There's no reason to believe a Democrat in office would have acted differently, and many Democrats who factually responded worse. Your counterfactual "if Trump weren't president" analysis is partisan nonsense.
 

lil devils x

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He explicitly listened to the scientists. They said jump, he said how high. I don't need to read your revision of history, I was, in fact, alive to witness it. I was alive to listen representatives on the CDC talk about how their early actions might seem extreme, but they'd rather be overcautious. I was alive to see states and medical groupds say the federal government was fully cooperative with them. I was alive to see a national health emergency declared the day after experts were warning Trump. You're not going to convince me to ignore my lying eyes, I watched it all happen.

There's no argument that Trump hasn't listened to experts, the most prominent experts have their platform because Trump gives them the podium and tells the media to ask them questions instead. Those experts say he followed their suggestions at every step.

There's little argument Trump made America unprepared beforehand. He may have suggested cuts, and then congress increased funding instead.

There are plenty of valid criticisms of Trump, but in this case, they are mostly criticisms of the status quo overall. There's no reason to believe a Democrat in office would have acted differently, and many Democrats who factually responded worse. Your counterfactual "if Trump weren't president" analysis is partisan nonsense.
My revision of History? First of all, Trump chose who he listened to and who he ignored. Everything I stated was true and can be supported by the evidence.
“Donald Trump may not have been expecting this, but a lot of other people in the government were — they just couldn’t get him to do anything about it,” a U.S. official with access to the classified briefings told the Washington Post. “The system was blinking red.”

We have a documented timeline of events here.

If he had listened to the scientists he would have been stockpiling and planning an international response like other nations were:
"Mid-to-late December 2019: A team of government public servants in Alberta, Canada responds to reports of an “influenza-like virus” in China by increasing their emergency stockpile of hospital masks, gloves, and gowns.

After hearing about a “strange flu” from contacts in China, the Alberta Health Services supply procurement team doubles their normal order of hospital PPE in mid-December. In late December, management approves a huge new purchase, including about 500,000 additional N95 masks."

No, it is far from "partisan nonsense" to actually have competent leadership.

What do you mean there is no argument that Trump hasn't listened to experts? That is what has been happening this entire time. What media d you have to be listening to to even remotely think that.. at all?

"January 3, 2020: Chinese colleagues alert the CDC Director about the virus, and he alerts Secretary Azar.

Chinese colleagues alert CDC Director Robert Redfield on the spread of the unknown and novel virus. Redfield quickly relayed the information to U.S. Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar who notified the National Security Council.

Sometime later in the month of January: FDA chief Stephen Hahn asks HHS if he can start contacting companies about possible shortages of personal protective equipment and other equipment. HHS tells him no. That decision causes weeks of delay.

“Azar told associates such calls would alarm the industry and make the administration look unprepared,” the Wall Street Journal reports."

What was Trump doing during all this? Yea.. that sounds like listening doesn't it? If you were not aware of what was happening here, you need to change your news source.
 

Seanchaidh

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The Communists who rose up in 1917 against the tsar of Russia are inherently not liberals, because they patently had no respect whatsoever for the freedom and autonomy of individuals.
A certain kind of freedom and autonomy-- the bourgeois kind-- they had no respect for, true. But a major point of the Bolshevik revolution(s) was to secure other kinds of freedom and autonomy for many more individuals. For example, liberating the peasants from domination by landowners. One of the main motivations of Marx was his observation that capitalism had not even remotely delivered on the French revolution's slogan of "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity", and that spirit also animated the Bolshevik revolution(s). That spirit may eventually have been corroded by a powerful central bureaucracy, but it did exist.
 

Agema

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He explicitly listened to the scientists. They said jump, he said how high. I don't need to read your revision of history, I was, in fact, alive to witness it. I was alive to listen representatives on the CDC talk about how their early actions might seem extreme, but they'd rather be overcautious. I was alive to see states and medical groupds say the federal government was fully cooperative with them. I was alive to see a national health emergency declared the day after experts were warning Trump. You're not going to convince me to ignore my lying eyes, I watched it all happen.
I was there when William tell shot that arrow on his son's head - you're not going to convince me it didn't happen!

Indeed, all those things you say happened. It's just we're also including and extremely concerned about all the times they didn't, because we don't believe those occasions that paint Trump in a much less attractive light should just be ignored.
 
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Silvanus

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He explicitly listened to the scientists. They said jump, he said how high.
Was he listening to scientists when he said it's "like a flu", and "should be treated like a flu"?

Was he listening to the scientists when he claimed the WHO death rate was false, and claimed it was 1%, based on what he himself described as "a hunch"?

Was he listening to scientists when he suggested a vaccine would be available within months?

Was he listening to scientists when he suggested the disease would just disappear "like a miracle"?

Jesus, was he listening to the scientists when he suggested untested drugs, disinfectant, and strong light to kill the virus?

At every step, experts and scientists (often within his own administration) have had to scramble to correct the moronic, childish drivel he's spouted.

There's no argument that Trump hasn't listened to experts, the most prominent experts have their platform because Trump gives them the podium and tells the media to ask them questions instead. Those experts say he followed their suggestions at every step.
Dr. Rick Bright might disagree with you there.