Woman murdered for rejecting a man, another gets her throat slashed for the same.

[Theodora]

All I have going through my head is the saying 'A mans worst fear is being laughed at - a woman's worst fear is being murdered'

This saying is stupid, belittling to EVERYONE involved, and inaccurate.

My worst fear is that I will wake up one day to find that everyone and everything I ever thought I knew was, in fact, a lie and that I had made it all up in an attempt to keep myself from knowing that I'm actually a serial killer in an insane asylum.

My second is that a woman will accuse me of raping her child thereby destroying my life, livelihood and any chance at a happy life.

My third is that I will be forced to violate my self-imposed oath of celibacy, dooming me to burn for all eternity in the fiery pits of hell.

My fourth is dieing before completing a novel. Fifth is that I'll commit suicide, then comes wasps, needles, and drowning.

How is this " belittling"? I have been attacked my multiple men, have been stalked by men, Have had to put a man in prison for actually trying to kill me and the only reason I am here now is my neighbor stopped him and got stabbed in the process. Women fear these things because of our experiences. The reason women fear this is because this is not some thing you read about on the news, most of us have been attacked by men or has had someone close to us who has. Of course I am afraid for myself and others due to these things. I was violently raped, my best friend was raped, my sister was raped, my grandmother was raped... this is not some uncommon thing at all is the problem. It is very scary telling a guy "No" because of how many guys respond when you do. Trying to make them understand that you do not want relations with them without them becoming angry is often difficult to do.

I am trying to understand why you think it would belittling to admit that I have nightmares about being attacked now due to events that happened. Why would saying that is your worst fear be belittling?

It's belittling because it's an incredibly huge sweeping generalization that turns it into a gendered issue when it is not the case. Your personal experience, while pretty horrifying, does not necessarily reflect those of everyone else. These people don't do these things because they're men, they do it because they're freaking psychopaths. It's not even the majority of men that do this, so I have a huge problem if someone makes a statement implying that they do. Most guys are not going to turn into Elliot Rogers when they get rejected because most guys (and people for that matter) are normal, law-abiding, well adjusted individuals. It's shit like this that leads to things like the M&M argument, that when applied to things other than gender come across as fairly prejudiced.

I don't think they do these things because they are psychopaths at all, and I do not think this is as limited to the actual small portion of the population that are psychopaths and that is the problem here. Yes this happened to me, this happened to MANY women I know, that is the problem here. This isn't limited to a small group, and the idea that it is is part of the problem. It is denying that this is a serious widespread issue to begin with. It is widespread, that is why we have gang rapes. That is why these things can happen and many do not bother to report it, or try to stop it or try to do anything about it at all. That is how an 11 year old girl can be raped by 21 males. Are we to believe all those guys are psychopaths? Whether or not you choose to believe it, not all guys even know raping is wrong, or even consider forcing themselves on a woman to be rape. Many do not see their actions as wrong at all, and many that do do not care due to environments that allow that idea to flourish as being acceptable, hot or even funny.

Yes, Men and women should not be afraid to admit that the majority of rapes and murders are staggeringly carried out by males. Attempting to say otherwise is just denial of what is happening here. Males are more likely to murder both males and females, and males are more likely to rape both males and females. That is not saying that females do not do this at all, it is saying that the vast majority are carried out by males against both males and females. In order to decrease this from happening you have to look at who is doing this and why. Finding the most common issues and addressing those issues is how you resolve the bulk of the problem. Trying to focus on a very small minority and attempt to present it as the equivalent is not going to solve the bulk of the problem.

Now of course they do not due this because they are males, but you do have to address the environment that is causing more males to resort to these actions in the first place. You have to look at what made them choose to do this in the first place.

We could take a much broader picture and point out that....

1) These mass killing or even just these many many murders seem to be geographically located in... the United States particularly. We are the home of Adam Lanza, Elliot Rodgers and of course the Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold. While many are looking at a gender issue, why are very few pointing out a geographic anomaly here.

2) Female killers that have been caught, disproportionately make up the "murder by poison," demographic. Or, it is probably there are many more female murders out there whom simply were never caught.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

We could take a much broader picture and point out that....

1) These mass killing or even just these many many murders seem to be geographically located in... the United States particularly. We are the home of Adam Lanza, Elliot Rodgers and of course the Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold. While many are looking at a gender issue, why are very few pointing out a geographic anomaly here.

2) Female killers that have been caught, disproportionately make up the "murder by poison," demographic. Or, it is probably there are many more female murders out there whom simply were never caught.

1.) If we're going that route... Vince Weiguang Li and Luka Magnotta make an interesting case for Canadians being geographically predisposed toward cannibalism. Not that I'm refuting the U.S. gun problem, but eh.

2.) It's sort of like the suicide methods the different sexes employ; men tending toward guns and violent means with women tending toward overdoses and the like. It's an interesting correlation, honestly.

As for the rest of the thread?

This thread is hilarious for all the wrong reasons.

Riiiiight there with ya.

 

[thewatergamer]

Excuse me but what exactly was the point of this thread again?

What is their to discuss? Two women were murdered by psychopaths, that's horrible, but not exactly news, all I see is a push to "discuss" how this is a growing and disturbing trend among men and "We need to do something about it!", when their is really 0 evidence of that and tons of counter evidence posted throughout this thread...

All I see is an attempt to stir up controversy and pit the extremists of both sides against each other, which is a great idea, lets give the moderators even more work and headaches!

 

[Skratt]

Far more disturbing than this behavior of Men and their ego problems are the "But look at all the men that get murdered! It's far more than women!" comments. As if that logical fallacy had any effect what-so-ever on the original "This shit is fucked up yo" statement made by the OP.

*sigh*

 

[Therumancer]

Well, the first incident in particular seems like a problem with minority subcultures in the US and how they are allowed to operate. Blacks, Latinos, etc... all tend to live in internal sub-cultures which are both racist and anti-societal starting with rather barbaric social mores tied to a sense of racial and cultural pride. Basically in a lot of Black or Latino/Hispanic America if a man receives a slight, he's honor bound to make you regret it, the same applies to Italians as well to an extent, but less than it has in previous generations. This applies to both men and women, women in particular are expected to hold a certain place, and when they reject a man it's expected to be done politely and with decorum, and for the woman to remove herself if he persists, a "burn" means he becomes obligated to teach her respect, and this can go really bad depending on how nasty she was where it might mean by this logic she should lose her life. The problem with things like "Machismo" is that they cannot be targeted individually as they are tied to a culture in a way that they become synonymous with it, and tend to connect with things that are not entirely negative. After all part of the point is that while men expect respect, this same "code" demands a lot more of them in terms of behavior, some of which can be quite demeaning and dangerous. This whole aggressive view of "what it means to be a man" can actually be tied to various accomplishments throughout a culture's history, and/or the way a traditional family structure is expected to work. To really stop something like this you need to shatter an entire culture, positive and negative aspects, and assimilate the people that belonged to it into the mainstream, something that is unpleasant but I have pointed out is necessary to deal with a lot of problems. The fact that we allow various ethnic communities to exist in the US and live like they are in another country and largely exist by other principles, is responsible for an astronomical number of problems in the US. Tolerance only works for the shot term, for a large society like the US you need to make sure everyone is on the same page, and largely working according to the same set of values. This applies to a variety of things beyond women's rights to things like black culture's attitudes about success, crime, and being in the top 1% or fighting outside of society to get there.

The second case I have more mixed opinions about, I can't tell with 100% certainy what ethnicity the attacker is and it doesn't specify when it comes to the victim. It could be more of the same, but the way it reads to me is that this was an intentional, pre-meditated killing. The person who did it probably having some professional-type skills, even if he hasn't exactly honed them with use (textbook knowledge). It seems to me that it's likely his intention was to use the attempted pick up to get the lady to drop her guard, basically once a guy makes an intent like this known a lot of girls will react since they know what the guy wanted at that point, and figure once they reject them the most they have to worry about is obnoxious behavior as opposed to a physical threat meaning they are less likely to run. In this case it seems she turned her back, a vulnerable position, and that's when he struck. If he was more out of control from a rejection I doubt he would have attacked in quite that fashion. This is purely a guess however from VERY limited information. In that case I'd be looking less towards his immediate motive than to shared associates and also if she happens to know anyone who is in financial trouble or might have slighted someone (or shares associates with the attacker). Like it or not, targeting friends/family is a common tactic and actually makes people harder to track when they lack a direct motive and the person who inspired the attack is afraid to come forward and say why it happened. When you owe money and are earning (even if not enough to pay a debt quickly) in the real world illegal sorts you owe it to are less likely to cripple or kill you than to go after friends and family both in terms of humiliation and attacks to "inspire" action from the person who owes them. If this guy was insulting towards a bookie, dealer, or someone in organized crime middle management getting a friend/relative's throat cut in response is not unheard of. It sounds crazy but when something like this happens there is usually more to the story. Of course it's also possible the guy who killed her was trained by someone or has a natural instinct for this kind of thing and it is what was presented flat out.

At any rate I'd prefer to summarize and say that society generally sucks, and despite statistics saying it's a lot safer, I don't think that's the case. I believe people have simply become more paranoid, and creeps more careful. Not to mention that politicians have a vested interest in saying there are less murders, crimes, etc... and there are ways to mess with statistics. Furthermore unlike TV and the movies cases don't get opened and shut quickly in many cases, and chances are when there are killings it's not counting ongoing cases or those put on the back burner while more recent ones are looked into by limited man power. Not to mention that they probably wait until there are convictions and politicians like to talk about "murder" but can discount it if say someone pleas it down to manslaughter or whatever. Then of course there is the degree of proof (beyond a reasonable doubt) which means that even people really, really, likely to have done something are technically innocent if they can provide a reasonable doubt and the Jury does what it's supposed to.

It's not popular, but one of the reasons why I'm a social conservative is that I feel liberal policies have lead to society becoming more dangerous as opposed to more open as "tolerance" has basically lead to us being flooded by creeps and weirdos of a sort that just wouldn't be tolerated in other societies. Sure they might seem "strange but okay" when you talk to them, but it's always about what they do when they think nobody is around or have an opportunity that is a problem, not how they are the rest of the time. The result is almost everyone multi-locks their doors (to be frank I do not think there was ever a time when people didn't frequently lock them), kids can't go out to play (and for safety reasons child services can even be called if you do and aren't attending them), and despite comments on how safe we are we get news report after news report of all kinds of increasingly vicious and weird crap going on. Even liberals tend to make a point out of being armed (having something, even if it's not a gun) specifically because it's become "such a crazy world" to be honest there was a time when almost every woman didn't have pepper spray in her purse for example.

Some people get all upset when social conservatives talk about creating a world similar to that of say the 1950s (our Grandfather's day) talking about how anti-liberal that would be and how much force would need to be directed at certain subcultures and groups of people. To be honest I see little wrong with that because if those subcultures and such are abolished the people making them up would simply be living that way too, and it was a lot safer. I do not think living in a state of constant paranoia through large parts of the country really counts as freedom or is in any way "progressive". Keep going down this road and we'll just see more crap like in these articles, we've created an environment for it in a way that goes beyond feminist issues. As was pointed out dudes get victimized to, it's more a matter of the world just being a mess, and the people of the USA in particular having made the country a mess due to a generation of liberals (the Baby Boomers) defying their elders (The Greatest Generation) and going from a relatively safe and orderly society to one that even the people defending it ironically agree is becoming increasingly insane, while at the same point defying people who want to be able to get it under control, not realizing the cause and effect relationship between certain naïve moral principles and the state of society.

 

[Jux]

The thing is, excusal and justification is something that happens in most criminal cases. If there's a fight that results in a felony assault charge, the defendant will likely try to excuse it (he started it, etc). Even in murder cases that seem fairly clear-cut, there will factors they will use to advocate for leniency. Philosophically, our justice system also has a very high bar for reasonable doubt (except when it occasionally doesn't), based on the idea that we'd rather let 10 guilty people walk free than wrongfully convict a single person. This applies to the whole system, and should apply to rape cases as well.

I'm not talking about a courtroom here. To what degree does that happen on a society wide scale? I'm not talking about a defense attorney trying to show mitigating factors for a client accused of murder. People don't go around saying "Yea murder is wrong, but the guy sorta had it coming, I mean look at what part of town he was walking in" or "Wow you're so stupid for getting car jacked, why would you drive around such an expensive car?", yet we constantly hear that kind of excusal for rape.

We don't say that because assaults are occasionally excused or justified, that we live in an "assault culture", it's simply a function of our justice system not seeing everything in black and white. There are many ways in which systems can be improved, but again, there isn't a single justice system that every person in the US goes through. States, municipalities, and individual judges and juries look at these issues with different perspectives and interpretations. Just because people online or a commentator victim blames or commits some other fallacy, doesn't mean that rape is summarily excused and trivialized by society as a whole, if you can even talk about a single "culture" or society as a whole. The term was originally used to describe countries where rape not only happens at exponentially higher rates, but where dismissal and trivialization is a much more deeply ingrained problem.

Were it a minority of people engaging in such fallacies, you might have a point.

Well, there was the whole "9/11" thing... maybe not Muslim on white exclusively, but you get the point. But again, I was not comparing the two directly, only showing how tragic events can be twisted, and it seemed like there was a little bit of that in the OP. "Look at how dangerous it is to be a woman because of these two isolated incidents that happened close together." It demeans not only the tragedy of what happened, but also discredits the argument. If there is a real, identifiable trend, then numbers will show it and you can point to that, rather than simply making an appeal to emotion.

Yea, if those were just two isolated incidents, and not two extreme incidents of a problem much larger in scope, I might be inclined to agree.

Who decides what this overarching societal culture is, though? Whatever subjective national cultural amalgamation you or I might be able to come up with, it ultimately doesn't matter. The culture that matters is the culture that people live in, and that can vary wildly and radically. A rape case will be treated differently by both the legal system and the public in San Francisco than if you lived in rural Wyoming. Even intersectional feminists accept this, being a black woman will subject you to a different culture and different modes of discrimination than a white woman will be subject to.

And yet in both of those cases, you'll still have people asking 'Why was she drinking?' 'Why did she go home with him if she wasn't planning on putting out?' 'It was just bad sex that she regrets.' 'It wasn't rape, she consented at first. What was I supposed to do, just stop when she said she didn't want to continue?' 'She probably wasn't raped, she's had sex with plenty of guys before'. The details might differ, but you're still going to see the same bullshit. It's almost like the only form of rape that anyone can acknowledge on the same page is if the woman wasn't drinking, dressed conservatively, raped by a dude jumping out of the bushes and at gunpoint (but only if it wasn't in a bad neighborhood!), and a virgin.

I didn't mean that to come across to you, but I have been called "part of the problem" because I don't subscribe to the exact definitions of "x culture" and certain aspects of radical feminism, despite basically believing in most of the goals and means to achieve those goals that they do, but if I don't believe in their dogma I'm no better than a standard MRA.

When you say radical feminism, do you mean feminism that just seems extreme to you, or are you talking about actual radical feminist theory? That aside, I don't know the particulars in any of your specific cases, but I do think it's a problem when people deny the existence of rape culture, for example. You can't start talking about solutions until everyone acknowledges there's a problem yes?

I try to remain as impersonal as possible, my case is likely not too common. However, you can't say "well these women who shared their experiences are evidence of X" and then object when I do the same thing. None of this is truly impersonal, all of our perspectives are shaped by personal experiences. This is why "all men are rapists" style radfems and MRAs can exist at the same time in the same space and society. I pity them the same way I pity members of the Islamic State, because typically these extreme perspectives and hatred come from very difficult and sometimes extremely tragic circumstances.

How many people actually have told you they think all men are rapists?

But yes, in some ways I'm tired of recounting stories about how I was bullied for professing Buddhist or pacifist principles or pansexuality, and everyone acting very concerned and sympathetic, but when I say that some of the bullies were girls and I literally could not defend myself due to social standards, the same compassionate empathetic feminists from before either go silent, dismiss it outright, or use defense mechanisms (not all womanz!! bad eggs!) that they criticize others for using. But most of all, I don't like having to point these things out just to prove I'm not a cishet whitey privilege poster boy.

It sucks that that happened to you, those people were wrong to do that. I hope you're doing ok.

It's not really, but you might have to teach those concepts in different ways, and some places will be naturally slower to adapt than others. As I said earlier in this post, those two regions might treat rape very differently, as it stands right now.

Is there any real evidence that there is a substantial change of attitude on rape based on region? As for teaching those concepts, they seem straightforward, I don't really get why they'd need to be taught in different ways.

 

[malbojia]

http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2014/10/mother_of_three_killed_in_detroit_after_rejecting_a_man_s_advances.html

http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2014/10/woman_s_throat_slashed_in_queens_after_turning_down_date.html?wpisrc=mostpopular

(rubs forehead) Ok, its depressingly not new that this happens far too often, but all kinds of horrible that we've had two examples now in a matter of days.

All I have going through my head is the saying 'A mans worst fear is being laughed at - a woman's worst fear is being murdered'

EDIT:

That conclusion is pretty terrible when you consider the fact that men usually make up about 70 to 80 percent of homicide victims worldwide...

That conclusion is a reference to a quote from writer Margret Atwood when she was talking about what men fear from women vs what women fear from men. So its pretty relevant to the discussion.

Gonna copy and paste this in here as I should have made the context of the saying/quote clearer to explain why it had been in my thoughts regarding these events.

That doesn't mean its a rational fear.

 

[hentropy]

I'm not talking about a courtroom here. To what degree does that happen on a society wide scale? I'm not talking about a defense attorney trying to show mitigating factors for a client accused of murder. People don't go around saying "Yea murder is wrong, but the guy sorta had it coming, I mean look at what part of town he was walking in" or "Wow you're so stupid for getting car jacked, why would you drive around such an expensive car?", yet we constantly hear that kind of excusal for rape.

Strangely enough, I hear it all the time, and more in real life. Take a look at any discussion surrounding gang crime, for example. Someone points out high murder rates related to gang crimes, and you hear a lot of very similar arguments: that most of those getting killed are gang members (they were asking for it), that they're all criminals anyway and them killing each other is a good thing, law-abiding and peaceful people don't even live in those neighborhoods, that it's a "self-correcting problem"... that's not even going into things like Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown, which are admittedly a bit more complicated issues, but still situations where it became common for people on news channels to openly blame the dead person for their death. I was never talking strictly about courts of law. I would say that it is just my experience that this is the case, but I'm sure you've heard it to some extent as well. Hell, even during Hurricane Katrina, there were those- not just on the internet or in fringe corners- blaming the victims of a natural disaster!

Take the Ray Rice case- not a case about rape, but of domestic violence, but still a serious social issue that women and feminists care about. The one major instance of victim blaming in the mainstream media I saw- Stephen A. Smith from ESPN- was met with a heavy suspension (in relation to suspensions normally given out by ESPN). I cannot say I hang out in a bunch of college bars and those frequently visited by "dudebro" types in frat houses, but I haven't seen a lot of people use those common excusals for rape ("she was dressing provocatively" is a punchline nowadays) in person without immediately having to apologize for it. It could be a matter of the types of people I open my ear to and listen to. But this is why I find it so hard to accept any argument that attempts to paint a very broad and varied society with a single brush.

It's also important to point out that, while victim blaming is wrong and I wish it weren't something some people jump to, but at the same time victim blaming isn't the same thing as offender exoneration. It's perfectly possible to hold the opinion that someone is 100% guilty and should be punished while also saying that the victim may have acted against common sense. They shouldn't, but it's not a zero-sum game.

But I will retract something I said before- rape is trivialized, ridiculed, excused, victims blamed, and openly accepted... in prison. Look at our broader media-driven culture when talking about prison rape- quite frankly, it's sickening. In the US, I believe that rape is generally taken very seriously and is not excused in a majority of cases, but simultaneously there are problems with education about rape and more understanding of it as an issue. I think these two things can be true at the same time. I interact a lot on the internet and within the tech sphere, and it is sometimes tempting to look at the internet as somehow representative of the broader culture and society, and all I have to do is go to a friendly outing, my neighborhood bar, a sports game, or just talk to others around me to realize and notice how truly different the two are. It's not like people are clamming up about socio-political issues, either.

It's rather easy to see a rape culture if you're looking for it on the internet, I suppose. In my personal experiences... I simply don't see it, outside of society's treatment of prison rape.

Were it a minority of people engaging in such fallacies, you might have a point.

I do believe it is a minority. A rather small one, at that. One that gets very over-represented on the internet.

And yet in both of those cases, you'll still have people asking 'Why was she drinking?' 'Why did she go home with him if she wasn't planning on putting out?' 'It was just bad sex that she regrets.' 'It wasn't rape, she consented at first. What was I supposed to do, just stop when she said she didn't want to continue?' 'She probably wasn't raped, she's had sex with plenty of guys before'. The details might differ, but you're still going to see the same bullshit. It's almost like the only form of rape that anyone can acknowledge on the same page is if the woman wasn't drinking, dressed conservatively, raped by a dude jumping out of the bushes and at gunpoint (but only if it wasn't in a bad neighborhood!), and a virgin.

There might always be someone somewhere who says that, sincerely. I just don't hear it myself in real life with any real frequency. If I have to go completely out of my way and actively search to hear such things in person, do I really live in a rape culture?

When you say radical feminism, do you mean feminism that just seems extreme to you, or are you talking about actual radical feminist theory? That aside, I don't know the particulars in any of your specific cases, but I do think it's a problem when people deny the existence of rape culture, for example. You can't start talking about solutions until everyone acknowledges there's a problem yes?

As I said, it's very easy to acknowledge a problem with rape and other crimes and do something about them without claiming that the most diverse country on Earth with 300 million people treats rape universally the same. Ultimately, I believe "rape culture" is just an unnecessary label created to inflame emotions about the issue, to plant the seed of an idea that rape is not just a tragic crime that is treated similar to other crimes, but that the singular and unified "culture" we all live in is antagonistic to women. It's not a well-defined term that has decades acceptance by academia. There's still a lot of debate as to what defines and constitutes a rape culture, and how severe these issues need to be in order to earn the label. To talk about in a matter-of-fact way in the same vein as people talk about racist culture in the south I believe is disingenuous and erroneous. At what point will we stop being a rape culture? When there's not a single rape or not a single person who says something dumb or insensitive on the internet? When we make victim blaming a crime? What's the threshold?

How many people actually have told you they think all men are rapists?

No one in real life, but I could say the same for MRAs and extremist Muslims and their rhetoric. It is something that exists within feminist theory and academia, however, that men are biologically inclined to want to rape others, that it's something that is in their subconscious and in every look and smile they give, that they're just waiting for their chance. These are usually not feminists in the traditional sense, though, but rather something closer to female supremacists who use terms like "rape culture" to claim that there's an age-old war against women and that these things will never truly change until men are literally subjugated. It's a small group with very little actual power or credibility, but it does exist.

It sucks that that happened to you, those people were wrong to do that. I hope you're doing ok.

I'm fine, I don't blame them anymore than the children who originally perpetrated the offense. We're all allowed to be human on occasion, and I wouldn't want something really dumb I did or said to be held against me forever.

Is there any real evidence that there is a substantial change of attitude on rape based on region? As for teaching those concepts, they seem straightforward, I don't really get why they'd need to be taught in different ways.

As someone who occasionally has to work with statistics, one fact that is frequently maddening is that some things simply are not numerically quantifiable and measurable. You can't put a number on an attitude. It might be interesting to do a study surveying people's attitudes when rape situations are described (either real or fictional) with associated details and asking questions whether they believe a certain situation is rape and their feelings on subsequent punishments or lack thereof. Like all opinion surveys, however, it would be subject to a wide variety of obscuring factors, such as how one asks the questions and the response options given.

All that aside, however, I'd bet US dollars that such a study would produce wildly different results depending on many factors. Tactics when it comes to education would have to change depending on how different the culture is.

 

[Jux]

Strangely enough, I hear it all the time, and more in real life. Take a look at any discussion surrounding gang crime, for example. Someone points out high murder rates related to gang crimes, and you hear a lot of very similar arguments: that most of those getting killed are gang members (they were asking for it), that they're all criminals anyway and them killing each other is a good thing, law-abiding and peaceful people don't even live in those neighborhoods, that it's a "self-correcting problem"... that's not even going into things like Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown, which are admittedly a bit more complicated issues, but still situations where it became common for people on news channels to openly blame the dead person for their death. I was never talking strictly about courts of law. I would say that it is just my experience that this is the case, but I'm sure you've heard it to some extent as well. Hell, even during Hurricane Katrina, there were those- not just on the internet or in fringe corners- blaming the victims of a natural disaster!

Being from New Orleans, and having stayed, yea, I heard that too. That aside, yea, you do see it in some specific instances concerning gang crime (or presumed crime, which I feel is often racially motivated victim blaming). That doesn't make that ok either. Those specific circumstances aside, how often do you hear it?

Take the Ray Rice case- not a case about rape, but of domestic violence, but still a serious social issue that women and feminists care about. The one major instance of victim blaming in the mainstream media I saw- Stephen A. Smith from ESPN- was met with a heavy suspension (in relation to suspensions normally given out by ESPN). I cannot say I hang out in a bunch of college bars and those frequently visited by "dudebro" types in frat houses, but I haven't seen a lot of people use those common excusals for rape ("she was dressing provocatively" is a punchline nowadays) in person without immediately having to apologize for it. It could be a matter of the types of people I open my ear to and listen to. But this is why I find it so hard to accept any argument that attempts to paint a very broad and varied society with a single brush.

I don't know what Smith said exactly that caused his suspension, so I can't comment on that. As for you not seeing it because of the people you hang out with, that may be the case, but you'll still see a wide variety of lines trotted out to excuse, justify or try to mitigate the seriousness of rape.

But I will retract something I said before- rape is trivialized, ridiculed, excused, victims blamed, and openly accepted... in prison.

I agree that it happens in regards to prison rape too, and it's just as wrong. I think it's unfortunate you seem to think it only happens there.

Look at our broader media-driven culture when talking about prison rape- quite frankly, it's sickening. In the US, I believe that rape is generally taken very seriously and is not excused in a majority of cases, but simultaneously there are problems with education about rape and more understanding of it as an issue. I think these two things can be true at the same time. I interact a lot on the internet and within the tech sphere, and it is sometimes tempting to look at the internet as somehow representative of the broader culture and society, and all I have to do is go to a friendly outing, my neighborhood bar, a sports game, or just talk to others around me to realize and notice how truly different the two are. It's not like people are clamming up about socio-political issues, either.

Can you explain to me why you feel rape is taken seriously here? You say below that you work with statistics sometimes. Are you familiar with some of the general rape statistics here in the US?

It's rather easy to see a rape culture if you're looking for it on the internet, I suppose. In my personal experiences... I simply don't see it, outside of society's treatment of prison rape.

I think it's pretty easy to see if you watch tv or read the newspaper too.

I do believe it is a minority. A rather small one, at that. One that gets very over-represented on the internet.

Have you ever considered that perhaps because it's fairly easy to stay anonymous on the internet, people are more willing to share how they truly feel about things as opposed to meat space due to our general rules of decorum? I think that it's glaring on the internet, but equally apparent offline, just less bombastic.

There might always be someone somewhere who says that, sincerely. I just don't hear it myself in real life with any real frequency. If I have to go completely out of my way and actively search to hear such things in person, do I really live in a rape culture?

How many people do you personally know? A hundred? Maybe two hundred? Do you really think that your very limited sample size is sufficient to determine that we don't live in a rape culture, despite evidence to the contrary?

As I said, it's very easy to acknowledge a problem with rape and other crimes and do something about them without claiming that the most diverse country on Earth with 300 million people treats rape universally the same. Ultimately, I believe "rape culture" is just an unnecessary label created to inflame emotions about the issue, to plant the seed of an idea that rape is not just a tragic crime that is treated similar to other crimes, but that the singular and unified "culture" we all live in is antagonistic to women. It's not a well-defined term that has decades acceptance by academia. There's still a lot of debate as to what defines and constitutes a rape culture, and how severe these issues need to be in order to earn the label. To talk about in a matter-of-fact way in the same vein as people talk about racist culture in the south I believe is disingenuous and erroneous. At what point will we stop being a rape culture? When there's not a single rape or not a single person who says something dumb or insensitive on the internet? When we make victim blaming a crime? What's the threshold?

You may think it's needlessly inflamatory, I think its calling a spade a spade. Would you prefer we shifted the conversation first to what defines rape culture and what indicators are before proceeding? It looks like you have an objection to the term despite not having a clear understanding of the term itself. I'd be more than willing to start a separate thread in R&P about it.

No one in real life, but I could say the same for MRAs and extremist Muslims and their rhetoric. It is something that exists within feminist theory and academia, however, that men are biologically inclined to want to rape others, that it's something that is in their subconscious and in every look and smile they give, that they're just waiting for their chance. These are usually not feminists in the traditional sense, though, but rather something closer to female supremacists who use terms like "rape culture" to claim that there's an age-old war against women and that these things will never truly change until men are literally subjugated. It's a small group with very little actual power or credibility, but it does exist.

Which feminist theorists say that men are biologically inclined to want to rape?

All that aside, however, I'd bet US dollars that such a study would produce wildly different results depending on many factors.

Knowing how polls work, I won't be taking that bet.

 

[FriendlyFyre]

Excuse me but what exactly was the point of this thread again?

What is their to discuss? Two women were murdered by psychopaths, that's horrible, but not exactly news, all I see is a push to "discuss" how this is a growing and disturbing trend among men and "We need to do something about it!", when their is really 0 evidence of that and tons of counter evidence posted throughout this thread...

All I see is an attempt to stir up controversy and pit the extremists of both sides against each other, which is a great idea, lets give the moderators even more work and headaches!

The issue is that people assume they were psychopaths, even though that's a diagnosis, versus a murderer, who can be an ordinary person.

If we don't stir up controversy, how are we supposed to get the vast majority of people to listen? Because even when we cite facts or debunk myths, it seems there is always a group of men who insist we either need or evidence to convince them, or get angry that women are expecting that they'll do something to combat it.

That fact that you don't think it's news is distressing, because the odds are that many women will grow up hearing that being murdered by a man for rejecting them is somehow not relevant to all the good men out there. Which means we avoid our responsibility by simply saying it's a lesser to concern.

To what, exactly?

 

[FriendlyFyre]

All I have going through my head is the saying 'A mans worst fear is being laughed at - a woman's worst fear is being murdered'

This saying is stupid, belittling to EVERYONE involved, and inaccurate.

My worst fear is that I will wake up one day to find that everyone and everything I ever thought I knew was, in fact, a lie and that I had made it all up in an attempt to keep myself from knowing that I'm actually a serial killer in an insane asylum.

My second is that a woman will accuse me of raping her child thereby destroying my life, livelihood and any chance at a happy life.

My third is that I will be forced to violate my self-imposed oath of celibacy, dooming me to burn for all eternity in the fiery pits of hell.

My fourth is dieing before completing a novel. Fifth is that I'll commit suicide, then comes wasps, needles, and drowning.

How is this " belittling"? I have been attacked my multiple men, have been stalked by men, Have had to put a man in prison for actually trying to kill me and the only reason I am here now is my neighbor stopped him and got stabbed in the process. Women fear these things because of our experiences. The reason women fear this is because this is not some thing you read about on the news, most of us have been attacked by men or has had someone close to us who has. Of course I am afraid for myself and others due to these things. I was violently raped, my best friend was raped, my sister was raped, my grandmother was raped... this is not some uncommon thing at all is the problem. It is very scary telling a guy "No" because of how many guys respond when you do. Trying to make them understand that you do not want relations with them without them becoming angry is often difficult to do.

I am trying to understand why you think it would belittling to admit that I have nightmares about being attacked now due to events that happened. Why would saying that is your worst fear be belittling?

It's belittling because it's an incredibly huge sweeping generalization that turns it into a gendered issue when it is not the case. Your personal experience, while pretty horrifying, does not necessarily reflect those of everyone else. These people don't do these things because they're men, they do it because they're freaking psychopaths. It's not even the majority of men that do this, so I have a huge problem if someone makes a statement implying that they do. Most guys are not going to turn into Elliot Rogers when they get rejected because most guys (and people for that matter) are normal, law-abiding, well adjusted individuals. It's shit like this that leads to things like the M&M argument, that when applied to things other than gender come across as fairly prejudiced.

I don't think they do these things because they are psychopaths at all, and I do not think this is as limited to the actual small portion of the population that are psychopaths and that is the problem here. Yes this happened to me, this happened to MANY women I know, that is the problem here. This isn't limited to a small group, and the idea that it is is part of the problem. It is denying that this is a serious widespread issue to begin with. It is widespread, that is why we have gang rapes. That is why these things can happen and many do not bother to report it, or try to stop it or try to do anything about it at all. That is how an 11 year old girl can be raped by 21 males. Are we to believe all those guys are psychopaths? Whether or not you choose to believe it, not all guys even know raping is wrong, or even consider forcing themselves on a woman to be rape. Many do not see their actions as wrong at all, and many that do do not care due to environments that allow that idea to flourish as being acceptable, hot or even funny.

Yes, Men and women should not be afraid to admit that the majority of rapes and murders are staggeringly carried out by males. Attempting to say otherwise is just denial of what is happening here. Males are more likely to murder both males and females, and males are more likely to rape both males and females. That is not saying that females do not do this at all, it is saying that the vast majority are carried out by males against both males and females. In order to decrease this from happening you have to look at who is doing this and why. Finding the most common issues and addressing those issues is how you resolve the bulk of the problem. Trying to focus on a very small minority and attempt to present it as the equivalent is not going to solve the bulk of the problem.

Now of course they do not do this because they are males, but you do have to address the environment that is causing more males to resort to these actions in the first place. You have to look at what made them choose to do this in the first place.

"t's belittling because it's an incredibly huge sweeping generalization that turns it into a gendered issue when it is not the case."

WORDS! All you fear is WORDS! Women fear being attacked and then not being able to report the attack because of way society treats them. Men fear being falsely accused and being attacked by society, BUT at least they don't have PTSD from the false accusations!

If it's selfish to ask men to recognize the reality of the danger they potentially face vs the reality that nearly ALL WOMEN face at one time or another, then too bad. They don't like it either, but men could step up and stop derailing the conversations at least.

captcha: fair and square. How ironic. I can conceive of no "fairness" so long as women live in fear and must adjust to a world that views them as prey, not as fellow humans.

 

[NiPah]

Spoiler

Excuse me but what exactly was the point of this thread again?

What is their to discuss? Two women were murdered by psychopaths, that's horrible, but not exactly news, all I see is a push to "discuss" how this is a growing and disturbing trend among men and "We need to do something about it!", when their is really 0 evidence of that and tons of counter evidence posted throughout this thread...

All I see is an attempt to stir up controversy and pit the extremists of both sides against each other, which is a great idea, lets give the moderators even more work and headaches!

The issue is that people assume they were psychopaths, even though that's a diagnosis, versus a murderer, who can be an ordinary person.

While it's not a diagnosable mental disability, you'd be hard pressed to call a murderer an "ordinary" person.
Ordinary is defined by being common place, to have no special features, a definition hardly fitting of a murderer.

If we don't stir up controversy, how are we supposed to get the vast majority of people to listen? Because even when we cite facts or debunk myths, it seems there is always a group of men who insist we either need or evidence to convince them, or get angry that women are expecting that they'll do something to combat it.

Stirring up controversy doesn't make people listen, it often makes them ignore you and strengthens their own beliefs. If you have factual evidence to prove people wrong then most will listen, if you sling shit then most will just ignore you.

That fact that you don't think it's news is distressing, because the odds are that many women will grow up hearing that being murdered by a man for rejecting them is somehow not relevant to all the good men out there. Which means we avoid our responsibility by simply saying it's a lesser to concern.

Most murder is not relevant, it's extremely sad and depressing, my heart goes out to the victim and their families but in reality this event will be forgotten and have no meaningful impact.

To what, exactly?

The next shiny object in the social sphere, most likely a weird reality show.

Society is inhumane and cruel like that, but we exist mainly because we can forget about the sad events in life, otherwise it wouldn't be much fun living.

 

[DC_78]

One time or another? ALL WOMEN FACE THIS.

Now of course they do not do this because they are males, but you do have to address the environment that is causing more males to resort to these actions in the first place. You have to look at what made them choose to do this in the first place.

WORDS! All you fear is WORDS! Women fear being attacked and then not being able to report the attack because of way society treats them. Men fear being falsely accused and being attacked by society, BUT at least they don't have PTSD from the false accusations!

Ladies I am sorry. You had terrible things happen.

How do we fix it?

 

[Otakun]

"t's belittling because it's an incredibly huge sweeping generalization that turns it into a gendered issue when it is not the case."

WORDS! All you fear is WORDS! Women fear being attacked and then not being able to report the attack because of way society treats them. Men fear being falsely accused and being attacked by society, BUT at least they don't have PTSD from the false accusations!

If it's selfish to ask men to recognize the reality of the danger they potentially face vs the reality that nearly ALL WOMEN face at one time or another, then too bad. They don't like it either, but men could step up and stop derailing the conversations at least.

captcha: fair and square. How ironic. I can conceive of no "fairness" so long as women live in fear and must adjust to a world that views them as prey, not as fellow humans.

Men don't suffer PTSD from false accusations? OK, even if that is true, they can suffer from possible imprisonment, loss of their job, loss of reputation, loss of family. Go ahead and say that's not traumatizing from something you didn't even do. I have a male friend who has not other then been raped by a woman, he has also been falsely accused of molesting his girlfriends child because she was tired of him spending 1 weekend a month hanging out with his friends. You can say all you want that ALL WOMEN face this but I know it's bullshit, it's just more that women are always the victim and men never are. The fact that you belittle that men face fears and problems too shows a lack of understanding on the issue. Male suicide rate is at an all time high, not to mention the large number that waste away drinking and doing drugs. Yeap, they don't live in fear or suffer other issues ...

 

[Spartan448]

People get murdered. Sometimes for shit reasons. How many people died today? Thousands, possibly millions, for reasons much worse than because they rejected someone. Stories like this get the front page; you know who doesn't? The beheaded man in Saudi Arabia, killed for believing in the wrong God; The executed child in China, shot for daring to speak out against her government; The Russian political prisoner who after years of brutal torture finally succumbed to their wounds; The hundreds of innocent people killed by American bombs dropped from American planes on American missions, each day, to kill three people hiding in a cave somewhere who probably wanted that to happen, who will climb right out of that cave tomorrow and profess themselves to be the saviors of the survivors; The Ukranian family dragged from their house and shot in the street, because they dared to oppose Mother Russia, or because they dared to favor the Russian Invaders over the current government;

All of these people died today, and all you can find to talk about is two women who got their throats cut. Is it sad? Yes. Does it indicate a societal problem that needs to be dealt with? Yes. Is it the most important thing that happened in the world today? Not in the slightest, and I hate it when a dead woman in a first-world country gets more attention from the media and those who consume it than the thousands of people gassed, dismembered, burning alive and slowly dying with their family in a diseased ditch in the middle of nowhere in a third-world country. THOSE are the people who deserve our attention.

 

[hentropy]

You may think it's needlessly inflamatory, I think its calling a spade a spade. Would you prefer we shifted the conversation first to what defines rape culture and what indicators are before proceeding? It looks like you have an objection to the term despite not having a clear understanding of the term itself. I'd be more than willing to start a separate thread in R&P about it.

Sure, let's talk about what defines rape culture, because I think you don't have a clear understanding of enabling cultures, and by extension the concept of rape culture. This might be because I have not heard a single definition of rape culture that everyone agrees on, yet I'm supposed to take in as fact that we are definitely living in one.

Let me illustrate my point by bringing up an example: sexual molestation on trains in Japan. I don't know how much you know about this issue, but over the years it has gotten severe, trains during rush hour times are incredibly crowded and people are literally smooshed like sardines against each other, making wandering hands much more easy to get lost in the crowd. Some men took this as an opportunity to sexually grope and molest women. Such things are not unheard of on trains in other countries, either, but it was becoming a very serious problem in Japan.

Their culture typically encourages both men and women to not draw attention to themselves, to not cause a fuss or problems for others. Women often times simply let themselves get groped, because they feel it's too much trouble for them, it would be hard to be sure who is doing the groping, and would not want to trouble others in trying to identify and then contact someone for the train officials to talk to. Additionally, there would be police reports and such, they would be late for work/school, and would generally be seen as troublesome as those around them.

This confluence of social stigmas form a perfect storm of sorts which enables more of the groping acts that go unreported and unpunished. Additionally, the society at large is one that doesn't like talking about troublesome and icky things in public, so not only was the problem denied or dismissed, it was completely ignored, building walls around the elephant in the room and pretending like it was just a housing feature.

It was only when the problem reached a critical mass that the government finally took steps to address it, finally addressed the problem. The alarm was sounded, so to speak, and people's attitudes started changing, women were encouraged that speaking out was the best thing they could do, and men started assisting those that did. Some went to even more drastic measures, but segregating cars for men and women, which while not ideal, was the best thing they could do to prevent the issue.

The point here is that there are two states: one that enables and one that does not enable. The enabling state is one where the presented problem is only a position to get worse or stay the same. The non-enabling state is one where governments, media, and other aspects of society call attention to an issue and encourage others to take steps to improve the situation. It might still be a very serious problem- but it is in a position to get better.

Wikipedia states that "Examples of behaviors commonly associated with rape culture include victim blaming, sexual objectification, trivializing rape, denial of widespread rape, or refusing to acknowledge the harm of certain forms of sexual violence that do not conform to certain stereotypes of stranger or violent rape."

Which is similar to something you said before. There is no problem with this definition in its face, however, all of those various aspects come in a different doses and prevalence. If just one person denies widespread rape when it is present, do we live in a rape culture? That would be absurd. Also, what exactly defines widespread rape? This is why there is disagreement on the issue: because there is little agreement on the standards and thresholds in which these criteria are met.

Statistics on rape are difficult to gather, which is another problematic issue surrounding the debate. The most auhtoritative numbers we have come from the FBI's numbers, which has its flaws but shows us how many rapes have been convicted. The number of victims, when including forcible rape (defined as all rape outside statutory and incestual), is 84,376 in 2012.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/tables/1tabledatadecoverviewpdf/table_1_crime_in_the_united_states_by_volume_and_rate_per_100000_inhabitants_1993-2012.xls

But as we both know, that's not the real number due to the number of unreported rapes, which are incredibly hard to measure because you know, they're unreported. Various surveys and polls have tried to get a more accurate number, but really no matter what report one might use in that situation, it is subject to many different obscuring aspects. For example, RAINN is an organization that does a lot of good work, and they also have a statistics page which claims that 1 in 6 women have had an attempted rape against them, however the information comes from a survey done in 1998.

https://rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims

There are other sources of course, but you start getting into special interest groups and other parties which have every reason to skew the numbers however they like them, and they are predictably all over the map. RAINN reports from a DoJ number (that is not provided) that the single-year number is 346,830, or .2% of the of the female population. We also can surmise from these sources that the overall number of rapes is going down, per year, on average.

So, that's the question, is .2% of the female population getting raped in 2012 sign of a broader rape culture? You can't answer that question statistically, it is ultimately a subjective thing. I could try to do comparative analysis to a country with a very low rape rate, but if finding reliable stats for the US is hard, you can imagine how difficult it could be for others.

The US is, however, keeping pace with most EU countries, and has far, far fewer rapes than the majority of the rest of the world. Meaning that if we live in a rape culture, so does pretty much the entire Earth. Also, while rape rates have been on a steady decline in the US, it's rising in European countries.

So okay, that's all statistical stuff on things that are measurable. The main question is: is US culture a rape culture according to the previous definition? Does the United States society enable rape by ignoring it, denying the prevalence of it, excusing it, or summarily blaming the victims? Again, it depends on how you measure cultural influence. Based solely on the media, including entertainment media, I think it's rather obvious that rape is certainly not an ignored issue. Rape is frequently discussed in all corners of the media, from social media to print media. There are movies about rape and an abundance of sources for it. I have never once heard a media personality, major or minor, doing something like victim blaming and not being punished for it. Women are frequently and enthusiastically encouraged to report sex crimes of all kinds in school, with "Rape 101" often being part of college orientation. An expose on rape in the military won a Best Documentary Oscar and that same documentary caused enough concern to move Congress and the Pentagon to act on the issue. Even being accused of rape is enough to destroy someone's public image and livelihood, regardless of whether the accusations are true.

I believe in a rape culture, many of these things would not be true. The alarm has sounded, and people from all walks of life are doing more encouraging things to educate others about rape and how to reduce it, and more well-funded organizations are there to offer support to those that are, and as a result, the rape rates are falling. So I can conclude that if we did live in a rape culture at one time, we no longer do, as an "overarching society". To me, saying there is a rape culture is like sounding an alarm, and if the problem has been recognized, is being addressed in a variety of ways, and is being improved, there is no need to keep sounding the alarm constantly until things become ideal. After a while, people will just start ignoring the alarm.

In short, I still believe rape is a serious problem in society and that those wishing to make the problem better still have a lot of work to do to change attitudes and systems. However, I do not believe we live in a rape culture that ignores, denies, or excuses the major problem. I think it, if it can be talked about like a collective living entity, takes rape seriously and makes no attempt to cover it up as a social sickness. However, there are still important discussions to be had, education to be had, and human nature to deal with and overcome. If "society" is a person, she would feel quite conflicted about the issue.

Now, I do believe there are subcultures which could be considered rape cultures. Due to command structures in places like college and the military, the subcultures can sometimes enable systems that discourage normal independent due process, which can in turn enable rape. These institutions do need to be addressed in a severe way, but luckily once again the alarm is being rung and changes are starting to happen. But it's still a long way to go. Prisons, as I mentioned, are probably the worst case of rape culture, a culture that is built around sex as a form of social status. Otherwise heterosexual individuals often times just submit to the system, giving technical consent because they feel they have to do it. It's rape culture at its worst.

I have heard rape culture described by some to be something that is more or less impossible to really get rid of, as it will exist so long as rape exists, so saying it exists is like saying we need oxygen to breathe. This is an acceptable idea to me, as a theory. However if one's goal is to eliminate rape culture, then one must have... goals. A societal state that they wish to reach. You cannot score a goal without being told where the net is. So in this long-ass essay that turned out much longer than I ever intended but don't know how to cut down without ruining my point, my one question to you if you wish to quote/answer nothing else: If you believe in the latter theory, that rape culture can be ended, what would the society without rape culture look like? What is the ideal, and do you think it is reasonably attainable?

One last thing:

Have you ever considered that perhaps because it's fairly easy to stay anonymous on the internet, people are more willing to share how they truly feel about things as opposed to meat space due to our general rules of decorum? I think that it's glaring on the internet, but equally apparent offline, just less bombastic.

"General rules of decorum" are essentially what we're talking about here, though. In my belief, if someone isn't willing to express a certain opinion in mixed company, then it is hard to take that opinion seriously. I ask myself, would a victim blamer or rape apologist be able to be elected to any national office? Todd Akin had very troublesome views on rape, and he lost by a landslide in a very conservative state, and even conservative media tried to defend him. The media couldn't stop talking about him. Also something that seems strange in a society that trivializes, denies, and excuses rape.

 

[vitamint]

To the OP: So you're taking the fact that two examples happened in close succession to claim they're not rare. Okay then - if that's the case, where are your examples for all the intervening days since you made the post ? And furthermore, even if you did show this happening every single day, do you understand how damn rare that would still make it on a planet of 7E9 people ?

You might have had a point if anyone whatsoever supported those attacks, but the opposite is the case - they made the news because they were horrible things that would sell newspapers.

 

[Jux]

You may think it's needlessly inflamatory, I think its calling a spade a spade. Would you prefer we shifted the conversation first to what defines rape culture and what indicators are before proceeding? It looks like you have an objection to the term despite not having a clear understanding of the term itself. I'd be more than willing to start a separate thread in R&P about it.

-snip-

I'll be getting to work on that thread then, and addressing this in due time.

 

[WhiteNachos]

Far more disturbing than this behavior of Men and their ego problems are the "But look at all the men that get murdered! It's far more than women!" comments. As if that logical fallacy had any effect what-so-ever on the original "This shit is fucked up yo" statement made by the OP.

*sigh*

Pretending this is a uniquely women problem is debatable. That's where these comments come from.

 

[Corran006]

http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2014/10/mother_of_three_killed_in_detroit_after_rejecting_a_man_s_advances.html

http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2014/10/woman_s_throat_slashed_in_queens_after_turning_down_date.html?wpisrc=mostpopular

(rubs forehead) Ok, its depressingly not new that this happens far too often, but all kinds of horrible that we've had two examples now in a matter of days.

All I have going through my head is the saying 'A mans worst fear is being laughed at - a woman's worst fear is being murdered'

EDIT:

That conclusion is pretty terrible when you consider the fact that men usually make up about 70 to 80 percent of homicide victims worldwide...

That conclusion is a reference to a quote from writer Margret Atwood when she was talking about what men fear from women vs what women fear from men. So its pretty relevant to the discussion.

Gonna copy and paste this in here as I should have made the context of the saying/quote clearer to explain why it had been in my thoughts regarding these events.

A black man's worst fear is being murdered. I fixed that for you.