Women in Frontline Combat?

[Aurora Firestorm]

If you want to go with physical advantage, we have a higher pain tolerance...

This is a very common misconception, women have a far lower tolerance for pain than men on average except during childbirth. I'm very sorry to say that a lot of women I know have an artificially inflated idea of their own physical ability because...as horrible as it sounds...the men around them humour them. I'm surprised about how consistently this mistake is believed actually, it's one of those things thatjust seems to have come out of nowhere.

So as much as I agree with your other points, this is not one of the best reasons.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4641567.stm
http://health.msn.com/health-topics/pain-management/articlepage.aspx?cp-documentid=100218149
http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=51160
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/07/050705004113.htm

I stand corrected.

Also, I don't think it's a general trend among women to overestimate themselves. That's kind of like saying that women only _think_ they're as awesome as men, and they're actually not.

A lot of people already said it here, but strength does not equal conditioning and resilience.

 

[LiftYourSkinnyFists]

Women who want to should be able to, nobody is forcing anybody to do anything now a days.

 

[Xixikal]

Australia has an army?
.

Ouch.
Hell yeah we do. We may not have a lot of them, but Australia has some of the best trained troops in the world.

 

[NobodyHereButUsTrees]

If a woman can pass a PFT by male standards (pull ups included, no falling out of runs), then yeah, why not?

 

[CloakedOne]

Women should be allowed to do that because men are allowed to do that. That's pretty much my response on any "should women be allowed to _____" threads or questions.

 

[bdcjacko]

Australia has an army?
.

Ouch.
Hell yeah we do. We may not have a lot of them, but Australia has some of the best trained troops in the world.

Every country claims to have the best trained in the world.

 

[Daverson]

I'm in favour of it. I'm all about Gender equality, see, and it'd be a bit difficult to give women equal opportunities, if they aren't given equal responsibility.

The days when war was about hitting people with clubs is long gone. There have been plenty [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deborah_Sampson] of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyudmila_Pavlichenko] examples [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leigh_Ann_Hester] of women being as capable as men in frontline service.

 

[Boris Goodenough]

Sorry, can I also just say... this isn't about women in the Army. It is women as frontline fighters.

Women in the airforce is a great idea. It boosts their number 20%. They are capable and in many cases better than their male counterparts on many fronts. I have no problems with a woman even as a general.

This is, should we be using them to fight toe to toe with males of equivalent training, and minimal technology shift in a situation where physical might rules?

We don't do it in tennis for chrissakes.

Well women have better bodies for high Gs, just that fewer that can do the spatial manipulation, which is rather important part of being a pilot.

 

[loc978]

Funny thing about this issue... it's not a problem of physical capability, it's not even a problem of male soldiers having impaired judgement when a woman they know is in trouble. Those things can be overcome.

The problem is the nature of "frontline combat" lately. In my experience, when most people think of that, they think of WWII or Vietnam War-era soldiers lined up on a hill like in the movie We Were Soldiers. That combat role is no longer "front line". Support troops already do that, including women. "Front line" now means clearing buildings in fire teams. Urban combat. A fire team now has to be close as a group of siblings. They can't afford to offend one another with every breath, and most infantry guys make more gay jokes, sex jokes, and boasts about conquests than a sailor, a trucker and a biker combined. A majority of women get at least a little uncomfortable around that sort of thing. One off-color comment by an infantry regular around one of his female team members could break unit cohesion and get people killed.
I'm fine with women fighting on the front lines as they are... but only if they pass a psych evaluation for dealing with machismo and misogyny without getting offended. As long as she can fire right back and embarrass the guy to a chorus of "daaaaamn, she got you man"... she'll do fine.

 

[Chemical Alia]

Practically ninja'd my thoughts on this one.
Literally everything I was gonna say; most men'd go "[chivalry] Shit, the lady's in danger! [/chivalry]" and rush in to protect them more so than a fellow male. I know I would.
That coupled with the fact that a very small % of infantry would be female, it really is just too much hassle.

Well, perhaps you're the one who doesn't belong on the front lines then.

 

[B2kCyclops]

I'm for it, since I belive in absolute gender equality.
No cutsies for anyone.

But I'd have to say "No" to mixed gender squads.
All female squads should be fine, but I haven't read that many reports about all female squads to voice any educated opinion on it, though it sparks my interest.

Why you ask?

One of the first thing you learn as a soldier(at least I did) is to injure(enemy) or prevent injuries(friendly) to females in a hostile encounter first.
A wounded male combattant usually attracts the attention/will be helped by one squadmate.
Females have usually at least 2 squadmates aiding them.
You know, because of gender roles imprint in our instinctive behaviour.
So a squad consisting of 2 female and 5 male soldiers, can almost be taken out of effective combat by just injuring the female members.
There is proof that it does not has to happen all the time, but in 80-90 percent it will.

And there is the highened sexual tension in combat areas.
I can say(from experience) that a troop with 60 men and 7 women will have unneccesary quarrel in their ranks, resulting from being shot at, losing comrades, living in a space made for only 30 people and not getting laid in weeks...
Do the math...

So, I'm not against women on the frontline, quite the opposite, but I'd prefer pure female squads over mixed ones.

 

[Xixikal]

Every country claims to have the best trained in the world.

That we do
I didn't claim we were the best - just sayin' we has some of them

 

[MikeOfThunder]

In most cases women are not as physically adept as males, war is brutal and that requires pysichal skill that most women just have.

Also, you're assuming that ALL females are physically weaker then ALL males. Which is not the case. If a woman is apt and able, why shouldn't she serve?

I think you'll find he said 'most women' not all women. Which is techniquely correct.

However this is my thoughts:

*This is the bar for physical fitness of a soldier* If you are under it, you do NOT get in.
If you are over it you carry on to the next test. I see no good reason why a woman wouldn't be just as an affective soldier as a man.

 

[carletonman]

If she can hump the same gear as a man, stand in a communal shower with a bunch of men, and die in the dirt with the men, I see no problem with it. Just make it very clear that there would be NO exceptions based on gender, and that females would be required to complete everything the men did. Having family in the military, I know that being a frontline grunt is a pretty shitty place to be, so if there are some women who want to take that responsibility on, go for it.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

Er if they can pass the training,ect why should it matter what kind of human they are?

 

[Xixikal]

I think you'll find he said 'most women' not all women. Which is techniquely correct.
.

I know, thank you for that - I've already clarified, if you'd see my earlier post.

 

[Daveman]

tbh if she made it through the same training then it doesn't matter which gender is more physically adept because clearly she is gonna be strong enough.

plus they have plenty of training to cope with people getting shot to the point that they don't go mental and freak out because they know what they have to do regardless of the gender of the person shot.

so yeah, if she wants to fight and has proved herself capable, what reason could you have for stopping her besides blatant sexism?

 

[Smokej]

Speaking out of my personal experience in the army, it brings more problems than advantages in terms of organisation, legal affairs and combat efficiency... I can't speak for other countries but in the Bundeswehr maybe 1 out of 10 should be allowed for combat roles (even the instructors will tell you the same in private)

 

[darthotaku]

I'm fine with women on the front line. I know many girls who would run circles around me in a combat situation, and as a man I am not afraid to admit it either.

 

[Iwana Humpalot]

Why couldn't women go to a frontline? It is their right to get shot at just like men do.