Women in Frontline Combat?

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Wistfane

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Bara_no_Hime said:
Zenode said:
What are your thoughts on women in frontline combat situations?
Women should be allowed in front line combat.

Our strength no longer matters - we have guns now.

And it has been proven that, given the same training, women are better shots than men. Sorry guys, we are just dexier than you. Like elves with bows.
Some really controversial statistics thar care to link to source ?

Aside from that women in the army is good. Want equal rights ? Fight for 'em. Literally. If anything it will break those cutesy action girl stereotypes in the media (most likely played by a Angelina Jolie. You wanna be like the boys? Well say good bye to your mascara and drop down and give me 20 :)
 

funguy2121

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WolfThomas said:


Every rifleman needs to be able to use this if the circumstance requires. Rifleman's bodyarmour with the ceramic plates can be roughly as heavy as a medieval knight's (20kg) or, thats not counting the ammunition and other gear.
But that's not a rifle, it's a heavy machine gun. What percentage of infantry are machine gunners? 20%? 15?
 

x EvilErmine x

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If they want to then why not. As long as they can pass the tests and do the job then not allowing them to is tantamount to sexism.
 

Voration

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As has been said many times in the thread, I don't think someone should be denied a job based on gender, provided that they are capable to do the job asked of them, this goes for men and women.

I don't think a woman on the front line will be easy to single out, since when wearing a full suit of gear, with a short haircut, it becomes difficult to distinguish a woman from a small man. Some women are really big, dwarfing other men, somehow I don't think they'll be targeted for being women.
 

Thaluikhain

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Wistfane said:
Aside from that women in the army is good. Want equal rights ? Fight for 'em. Literally.
Nicely put.

funguy2121 said:
But that's not a rifle, it's a heavy machine gun. What percentage of infantry are machine gunners? 20%? 15?
Depends on the nation, but in a "classic" fireteam, 1 in 4 in a fireteam carries a LMG, though with the USMC, another person helps carry the ammo.

Not sure what fireteam organisation the Australian Army uses, I keep finding contradictory sources on this, some saying it's a usual 2 fireteams to a section thing, others 3 3 men fireteams, each of the 3 having a different role.
 

The Hairminator

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In Sweden females are allowed on all posts within the military, but the physical tests are often very tough and they are equal for both genders.

Many would say what OP suggests is discrimination, and I would be inclined to agree.
 

Wolf-AUS

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Anoctris said:
When I went through, we had a WO2 tell our section that a real rifle section carried the Mag58 AND 2 LSWs, boy, that made shit fun

funguy2121 said:
But that's not a rifle, it's a heavy machine gun. What percentage of infantry are machine gunners? 20%? 15?
About 20%. How is that relevant though? Should they not have to perform to the same amount because there is 80% of the other people who can do it? Why not replace them so you can run a section at maximum strength. We can't have token women because the public wants it. If women are to be employed, that have to be fully capable of doing of what the basic infantry soldier is expected to do, which is carry that ************ and 1000 rounds.
 

binvjoh

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No doubt in my mind that they should be allowed in frontline combat.

The whole psyche is absolute bullshit, if male soldiers can't keep their head straight if a woman gets hurt in combat then they're the ones who shouldn't be allowed on the frontlines.
 

Irriduccibilli

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I can only disagree with you. I believe we should have MORE women on the frontlines. The reason to this is - Have you ever seen a woman get pissed? If they start bleeding they won't be the only one. They are fierce. But on the down side, the women won't be able to throw grenades (women can't throw (just kidding))
 

inquisiti0n

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They should be put in their own regiment/companies/whatever since I can easily imagine their presence among other men during a firefight mess things up. Putting all women in their own groups would also prevent alot of rapes and stuff.
 

Wolf-AUS

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thaluikhain said:
Wistfane said:
Aside from that women in the army is good. Want equal rights ? Fight for 'em. Literally.
Nicely put.

funguy2121 said:
But that's not a rifle, it's a heavy machine gun. What percentage of infantry are machine gunners? 20%? 15?
Depends on the nation, but in a "classic" fireteam, 1 in 4 in a fireteam carries a LMG, though with the USMC, another person helps carry the ammo.

Not sure what fireteam organisation the Australian Army uses, I keep finding contradictory sources on this, some saying it's a usual 2 fireteams to a section thing, others 3 3 men fireteams, each of the 3 having a different role.
They're mixing it up currently. Using the current terminology, it's 2 4 man bricks, generally each has one LSW, one 66 and a GLA, but they're changing it as I said. There's a piece on it here: http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/512-41768.aspx use CTRL-F and look for Infantry 2012 Model
 

DefunctTheory

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funguy2121 said:
AccursedTheory said:
funguy2121 said:
when everything goes tits up, a servicemember with a gun is a servicemember with a gun. They have the same function, be it providing cover fire or simply taking out the enemy.
Females are not serving as Front Line Combat Medics. Sorry.
Reading comprehension. There is no front line. Women experience combat in Afghanistan on a regular basis. You are forgiven.
There is a difference between being in combat as a support soldier, and being a front line combat soldier. A huge difference.

But if you want to keep arguing with a soldier, go for it.
 

Dense_Electric

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letterbomber223 said:
Something was so poorly established that it collapsed anyway and the US military couldn't take it down? poor show. - jokes i dont really care -
Given that it was doing just fine (or as fine as a PoS third-world communist country can be said to be doing) until the US showed up, I think it's fair to say we had something to do with said collapse.

WolfThomas said:
[Heh, if you read my post you'd see that's pretty much what I've said that minority of women who could, should be allowed to serve. I was just being a realist and stating that it's probably not going to be many.
Ah, okay, I misunderstood you. ;) Yes, I would imagine male infantrymen will remain a majority for the foreseeable future, though I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere down the line it goes right about 50/50. Particularly with warfare getting lighter, faster, more remote, and more digitized all the time, brute strength isn't as important as it once was. Or we could just make exosuits more practical and less bulky, and problem solved.
 

Colour Scientist

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Mackheath said:
Xixikal said:
I forgot to add earlier:

It's also completely unfair that men risk their lives while women are holed up, safe and sound. It's as much about rights for women as it is as rights for men.
Hey, I'm all for womens equality; when WW3 breaks out I want them out on the frontline if I am conscripted. All this chivalrous bullshit is just setting the whole 'womans rights' thing back. If they want to sign up, let them.

Although I have to wonder about what some feminists would say to this...
Most feminists would agree with you? What do feminists have to do with it?

OP: Of course they should, if a woman wants to fight on the front line there's no reason she shouldn't. Soldiers are soldiers. To be honest, I thought they already were.

Aurora Firestorm said:
Xixikal said:
There is no doubt you're right. Feminists will call for 'equality' until the first female soldier is killed. A women deserves to serve if she is able, just as a man deserve to not be the only one sacrificing his life.
Wow. Anyone who does that isn't actually a feminist, in my opinion. I also don't believe you. I'd be as equally encouraging of women who are willing to die for their country as men. If a woman feels that she can go defuse the bomb, at risk of blowing herself into tiny bits all over the landscape, then she should be trained and let to do it. If she dies, she knew what she was getting into, just like the man that could have been in her place.

I say that anyone who won't let women in combat should also not let women do other physically taxing things, and then they become a sexist jerk. Women can climb Mount Everest, swim the English Channel, all that...but they can't hold a gun and keep up with the men on the front lines?

Men who can't take the sight of a woman getting hurt are old-school and need to get over themselves. The next time America ever has a draft, if it does, they should draft women also. Not because I particularly _want_ to go out and get killed, but because it's fair. Women, with suitable physical training, are comparable to men until you get to ridiculous proportions, so long as they train hard enough.

Also, think about this: many extremely skilled Russian snipers were female. If you want to go with physical advantage, we have a higher pain tolerance and greater dexterity. We're smaller and thus can hide under things more easily, get through smaller spaces, and not be giant bullseyes.

Many countries have used women in the military, even in front combat -- Russia, I believe Israel requires service for both men and women, etc.

So do it. If she can keep up, she can fight. Jeez. It's not like having a vagina and a pair of boobs prevents you from doing any of this stuff.
I think I may actually love you. I really don't think I could have said anything better.
 

Colour Scientist

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Mackheath said:
Because I've know several people to react badly when I suggest women should be allowed to fight on the front line to make them equal with men; the same people who would rail against fair wage and rates.

You want equality? Fine. But you take everything that comes with it.

Although as the other person you quoted said, I'm not sure if they are feminists. They call themselves it, but I really doubt the real deal would enjoy being associated with such people.
That's the problem with feminism, most people don't actually know what it's even about. Those women are as much of a problem to feminism as chauvanist males really. You mention it nowadays and most people, men and women, will roll their eyes and give you a pat on the head or something.

I know I have a tendency to call out people who ***** about feminism or make statements like that, based on premises which are actually the antithesis of most strands of feminism, but like, someone has to.
 

Dense_Electric

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Colour-Scientist said:
I think I may actually love you. I really don't think I could have said anything better.
Seconded. Seriously, where can I meet women with similar beliefs where I live? There don't seem to be many around here.
 

Valate_v1legacy

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Kingsman said:
Valate said:
Lilani said:
Wrong country, friend. Australia is a bit different in terms of handling their military, to say the very least.
Australia has a military? (I keed, I keed...)

There's a very important reason that women have, as a general rule, not been allowed in the U.S. Army, and that's that if a fully-equipped male soldier is downed in the middle of a battlefield with only one fully-equipped female soldier, it entirely comes down to if she has the muscle and strength to pick that guy up- all 200+ pounds of him- and run to safe cover.

Almost every time, she has not. I won't say EVERY time, because I don't personally know, but enough times to make the notion unpopular.

This isn't to say that there's no place for women in armed combat, because I know a fantastic girl of a friend's family who's currently in the Air Force, but hey, just something to consider, Australia:

Which would you rather have dragging you off a battlefield, a man or a woman? Don't dodge the question with "Whoever's fitter or larger" or whatever crap, if that was all you knew, two possible draggers, one man, one woman, which would you choose?

20% of the United States Armed forces are women. There was no sexual segregation of troops as of 1978, even though the legislation was signed in 1948...?
 

Midnyte

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Chemical Alia said:
Midnyte said:
When i was in the millitary, we had 7 girls in our company at boot camp. These girls were all in good shape, and seemed to be strong-minded individuals with the will to do anything. And then when we had our first march through the woods, 5 of the girls gave up 4 hours in and the rest of us had to split their packs between us, while they carried no weight whatsoever except for their rifle and basic combat gear. That march suddenly became 10 times worse for the remaining guys and girls.

However, the two girls that didnt give up their packs turned out to be two of the hardest working and impressive soldiers our lieutenant had seen, and years later became officers themselves. So yeah, im agreeing with a lot of people here saying that women should absolutely be let into the frontlines, but they have to be able to perform on the same level as the guys.

Just saying, that also counts towards other things than physical strength, such as getting undressed in front of the opposite gender.

The majority of our bootcamp was during winter, and during one of our marches we had to cross a big river. I.E swim. Now, obviously, you have to take your clothes off before you start swimming, but one of the girls simply refused to take her clothes off in front of the others. Apparently, her bra had a malfunction, and she didnt want to flash her breasts at everyone. Leaving everyone standing on the other side of the river, freezing cold, while she walked upstream to a shallower point.

It took her 10 minutes. 10 f***ing minutes.
Anecdotally, when I was in basic, my company was about 25% female. The only people I ever saw drop out of a ruck march were the ones who passed out from heat exhaustion or a sprained ankle, and I can't recall anyone having to give their gear to another person, male or female. This story really surprises me.

Also, sports bras can't malfunction. If she was wearing a normal bra on a ruck march, she is retarded.
I have absolutely no idea what kind of bra she was wearing, but i can confirm that she was less than intelligent.... And the reason we were all forced to carry their packs was because our officers believed in a very subtle but effective punishment: make them feel like everyone of their friends were suffering because of them. Guilt can be a powerful motivator.
 

Mr Binary

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Women should have equal rights to serve as the men do. If they are apt and able I see no reason to hold them back, safe and sound while the men go out and gte hurt or die for their country. I don't normally agree with the points that Gillard makes but I like what she is saying this time.
 

Treblaine

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Generic Gamer said:
Honestly it doesn't sound like women bring anything to the table that men can't do equally well or better in this circumstance. Women as a generalisation have their skills and maybe there aren't enough of them that lean this way to make it worthwhile.
It's a shame that I keep failing to articulate my points to you as you keep seeming to miss them.

OK, I'll cover this again, in bullet-point, so you cannot possibly miss it (and a few more):

-HALF the population of America is female, that is a HUGE recruiting pool that cannot be entirely ignored. Especially in a world where conscription is not only socially unacceptable but is under it's greatest legal challenges and likely cannot ever be used again. Recruitment must cast its net wider than ever before to get the quality of recruits in the quantity they need.
And there is NO POINT in recruiting infantrymen if they are banned from ever doing what infantry are defined for: Combat operations.

-Women also make up 50% of the population in occupied countries, in Iraq and Afghanistan where often local custom is VERY SENSITIVE about male/female segregation, female infantry ARE SOUGHT AFTER BY THE MILITARY! They can enter women's quarters, search women and other areas that male soldiers would be just a bit too inflammatory.
This IS necessary as Al Qaeda and similar terrorist groups are now consistently using females on suicide bombing missions. Other ways they are utterly unscrupulously exploited the privacy/decency to carry out insurgent and even terrorist actions such as using them as mules and even male combatants disguising themselves in women's face scarves and cowering with their mother/sisters.


-You talk about how men won't surrender to female troops, well how would a woman feel being pulled over buy a load of men with guns. A female face can put a lot a of those - not so unreasonable - paranoias to rest and cut down on the all too common of people getting freaked out by all the guns and trying to ram the car checkpoint even though they have no contraband. Womankind's reputation for compassion is a boon in this scenario.

-Also 25% of Science-engineering degrees in the United States are awarded to women, THAT is a recruiting pool that cannot be missed when such skills are so highly sought after in the increasingly technically advanced battlefield calling in laser/GPS guided close air support, sniper-locating sensors, radar that can shoot mortars out of the sky.
That's not logistic roles, that's COMBAT roles. The "close" part of Close Air Support is no exaggeration, you need to be able to direct a metric-ton of high explosives from 10'000 feet to a position just a couple hundred feet from where you are standing. You don't want some dude who flunked High School math directing that because he was the best candidate you could find. Not when there are so many qualified females.

-If you think women haven't got the - hmm - the guts for the job, don't think it's anything inherent or biological:

http://www.greatwardifferent.com/Great_War/Women_Warriors/Hirschfeld_01.htm

"A peasant girl related that she found herself right next to a German, ran him through with her bayonet and at the same time shot him and took his helmet for a memento.... Another girl related that before they went over the top they were all very much excited and scared. But when the order to charge came she forgot everything and leaped over the top with the mob of screaming and bellowing girls. All excitement had virtually disappeared when the time came for shooting. This despite the fact that bombs were bursting all around. The first dead man that she saw made her pause for a moment but she just had to go on and therefore passed right over his dead body, a thing to which she soon became quite accustomed. Another girl related how her battalion had surrounded a company of German soldiers who threw away their weapons, held up their hands and shouted in amazement, 'Good Lord! Women!'"

1915 -

before women had the Vote in most of the western world they were leading bayonet charges.


Bottom Line

You may be of the opinion that war is too much of a meathead's game, where unrestrained brute violence is the principal path to victory and a path that can be forged exclusively by testosterone fuelled men (which kinda omits

The fact is the opposite, that to defeat insurgencies in Iraq and Afghanistan DEMANDS, finesse, discretion and violence only when justified. And this is war fighting that is not in the trenches or a distant battlefield but on the streets, in the market, in people family homes. War is no longer men fighting other men in a field at an agreed time and place.

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/102737/20110119/lift-the-ban-on-women-in-combat-panel-says.htm

Everyone whose opinion means anything on this matter is in favour or lifting this combat-ban which at the moment is frankly disrespectful of women's contribution to the service. They are de-facto in combat roles but this ban de-just denies them recognition and commendation for that.