Women in games are not systematically oppressed - a vertical slice

[endtherapture]

Would you play TW2 if it was the other way around? Would you play it if it was about a heroine flirting with hot guys, where you can be rewarded with sex scenes focusing on all of said hot guys, who are all super perfect and always alluring towards you, the player?
Would you play a game that among its selling points told you it featured scenes where you can admire nude penises (but no vaginas)?

You don't ever see a vagina in TW2, so what your point is that would I look at a topless videogame male? Yes I would, because that happens often in the game. Selling point of the game? You've got to be kidding...let's look at the back of the box.

I don't see any part of the game saying "yeah we've got sex scenes of naked women for you, that is a core feature of the game". You're talking out of your arse mate.

But yeah I would play TW2 if the genders were reversed, because I love the graphics, the gameplay and most of all the story and characters of the game. Not because I get to ogle naked pixel breasts. Get real.

 

[Darth Rosenberg]

I immediately ignore anything framed or associated with a 'if men acted like feminists' kind of mentality, because that ignorantly presupposes just what A Feminist actually does - ignoring the nuances and tensions within the whole movement.

Ticking off games as SEXIST! or NOTSEXIST! isn't productive in the slightest. This subject obviously isn't anywhere near that black or white. Neither do I think the thread title is remotely constructive, because it seems to suggest anyone's claiming all games are sexist, when no one even vaguely measured is saying that.

endtherapture, I feel your checks for yay or nay are as skewed as Sarkeesian's recent videos. For example (points I'm sure other people have raised), being able to play as a female character doesn't make it NOTSEXIST, and just because you like one character (Alyix in H-L2) that has no bearing on it either way. Including FIFA 14 gets close to being absurd; it has no female leagues in it, but you can be a female manager? Was anyone criticising FIFA for being sexist anyway (as opposed to simply excluding female leagues/playrs)? And would being able to pick a gender binary as a manager really make it NOTSEXIST? That was an especially odd example to include when talking about gender representation or sexism in this medium.

A lot of people these days seem to be reacting to very skewed ideas of what various words and ideas actually mean. Or, they're responding - emotively - to a direction of the 'discussion' that simply isn't occurring.

Re The Witcher 2: I don't think it's sexist - but it does contain some very problematic depictions of female characters. In some ways, it's a superb example of female characters in Western RPG's (they drive the narrative, and are excellently written), but it's also exploitative and often quite immaturely crass ('sex as a quest reward? hm, yes please, random female NPC!'). It's not SEXIST, it's not NOTSEXIST - it's something in between, and I think CD Projekt have some work to do, but they seem to be headed in the right direction, so kudos.

 

[endtherapture]

Mmh, the box doesn't mention the naked chicks. I was so wrong then.

YOU should get real. Perhaps The Witcher has good graphics, gameplay and characters, but this is a thread about women in videogames that are not oppressed and seen as sex objects. Please tell me you would not put TW2 in that list.

If you would.... I... don't think I can say anything else. It's like someone telling you that the moon is made of cheese, and even if you know he is wrong, there is no way you can actually prove him wrong.

The women characters of The Witcher 2 drive the plot. There's a various range of sexualities and different types of women in the game, with different strengths, from magical and martial, to intelligence and politic power.. The flirtacious Sile, the Blue Stripes woman who is boyish and competent, the lesbian manipulator Philippa, Triss who is enamoured with Geralt but strong and intelligent on her own, Saskia who is driven by a love of justice and independence, a virgin. The female characters in TW2 are just as important as the males and are given just as much power and agency.

So what...there's whores in TW2, women get naked and have sex? Wake up, there's a whole movement of sex-positive feminism, sex workers exist in our world and a bunch of women are happy to make their living off of their sexuality.

You're only looking at the issue skin deep, oh naked women = sexist, that's not true, you have to look deeper than that and engage with the writing and the involvement of the female characters in the story line.

 

[endtherapture]

I'm fairly sure it does contain full frontal nudity - in the opening scene IIRC.

It contains no graphic close ups of either animated vaginas or penises.

 

[endtherapture]

I'm fairly sure it does contain full frontal nudity - in the opening scene IIRC.

It contains no graphic close ups of either animated vaginas or penises.

Fair enough. Out of curiosity though, how close is a close-up? Are we talking about a sperm's eye view at the point of exit? A doctor doing a quick ball check? A disinterested doctor who can't be bothered to wash his hands and is only prepared to do a visual check? Though, maybe he's myopic and needs to get right in there for a gander. Or are we talking maybe two people, say, three feet apart looking each other up and down? Maybe one is looking at the other over their shoulder or in a mirror. It's all a matter of perspective I suppose.

And what is up with Geralt's nipples? They're pointing all over the shop.

Like, close enough so it's in frame and visible? Probably closer for a vagina since they are obviously interior organs and far harder to hide compared to a naked penis...regardless, stuff like Geralt's penis and Triss's vagina is covered by objects or the camera angle in the game, I'm pretty sure.

 

[carnex]

Here is one proposal. I know it's bloody crazy to think that this can work, as it would be both sexist and racist but also every other -ist out there.

But here is my proposal.

We tell developers that we actually don't give a fuck what they put in their games. That what they put is their own thing and choice.

And perhaps, we will get games that are more in line with what Japanese companies produced up to perhaps a decade ago. And that is sexist, racist etc games that actually have good female characters and characters of various races. Only thing that western developers would need to add is more racial diversity since Japan really doesn't have experience outside asians and whites.

I'm crazy, I know.

 

[Plunkies]

Someone should make a game starring a feminist. And instead of trying to save the world or do something productive, you complain about everything around you and how it doesn't conform to your personal beliefs of how the world should be. Instead of creating something yourself, you can deride the creators of actual creative content, questioning why there aren't more female characters. Or if there are female characters, question why they behave a certain way, or interact a certain way, or dress a certain way. In the end you can be judged by your victim score. How much everyone feels sorry for you and sympathizes with how hard you have it in the world. Then you can compete to get the highest score online, and if you don't win you can complain about how the leaderboards are sexist because competition is an inherent byproduct of patriarchy.

You know, if I was a female I could go to a charity that would put my idea into game form and pay me royalties. Oh wait, feminist Zoe Quinn already destroyed that. Darn. Living in a man's world as a hypothetical female sure is difficult. Maybe tumblr was on to something all along.

 

[endtherapture]

Mmh, the box doesn't mention the naked chicks. I was so wrong then.

YOU should get real. Perhaps The Witcher has good graphics, gameplay and characters, but this is a thread about women in videogames that are not oppressed and seen as sex objects. Please tell me you would not put TW2 in that list.

If you would.... I... don't think I can say anything else. It's like someone telling you that the moon is made of cheese, and even if you know he is wrong, there is no way you can actually prove him wrong.

The women characters of The Witcher 2 drive the plot. There's a various range of sexualities and different types of women in the game, with different strengths, from magical and martial, to intelligence and politic power.. The flirtacious Sile, the Blue Stripes woman who is boyish and competent, the lesbian manipulator Philippa, Triss who is enamoured with Geralt but strong and intelligent on her own, Saskia who is driven by a love of justice and independence, a virgin. The female characters in TW2 are just as important as the males and are given just as much power and agency.

So what...there's whores in TW2, women get naked and have sex? Wake up, there's a whole movement of sex-positive feminism, sex workers exist in our world and a bunch of women are happy to make their living off of their sexuality.

You're only looking at the issue skin deep, oh naked women = sexist, that's not true, you have to look deeper than that and engage with the writing and the involvement of the female characters in the story line.

Do you realize how your description of the female characters in this game proves my point? How each one of them is only defined by her sexuality, in relation to the player? You're trying to defend the game, and even so you couldn't describe the female characters any differently than you would in a bad dating sym game.
"There's the virgin, the lesbian, the one who loves you, the slutty one, the tomboy". Yep, that's exactly why TW2 is sexist. The female characters are a full gallery of male sex fantasies and nothing else.

Since when is being tomboy meaning you are defined by your sexuality? I was just pointing out the female characters have a range of sexual backgrounds since you were dense enough to imply they were all sex objects walking around in their underwear. But you know what? I'll take your fucking idiotic challenge and describe each of the female characters in a sentence without mentioning their appearance or their sexuality.

Triss - independent, capable and maverick sorceress, questions are raised about whether she is manipulating Geralt.
Ves - rough, down to Earth and sassy soldier in an elite secret unit.
Sile - flirtacious and vain travelling sorceress interested in the collection of dead magical beasts.
Philippa - master manipulator who is playing multiple sides of the conflict but paints herself as a benefactor to the oppressed of society.
Saskia - a charismatic young woman with idealistic hopes of a better world.

I think you're the one with the problem if you only see these females characters as sex fantasies. Maybe you should go back to basics and start seeing women in videogames as people and characters instead of just sex objects for yourself to objectify.

 

[endtherapture]

Look, one is manipulating Geralt (with her looks), the other is "charismatic", the other is flirtacious. Even if this time you tried really hard to hide what the characters are.

I'm a woman. This is why I am not sugar-coating what the female characters in Witcher are: it's because I am not attracted to them, so I don't need to tell myself I am not sexist for liking characters such as those. I don't need to tell myself that I buy Playboy for the articles, because I don't buy Playboy.


Just accept it, and say "yep, the female characters in Witcher are all hyper-sexualized for the player's enjoyment. You got a problem with that?". And then I would reply: "No, I don't have any problem with it, just don't ever mention that game as a videogame for women, because that's the one thing I have a problem with".
I respect people who come out and admit they like a character only because she's sexy and meant to be so. I really hate people who say they like "her... personality".

Triss is manipulating Geralt due to his lack of memory and being basically the only familar face in his life who can offer him comfort, "charismatic" does not mean you are hot and sexy, charisma means you are charming, an inspiring speaker and well liked, definitely nothing to do with sexualisation, and anyway, what's wrong with having a character that is flirtacious? People in real life are flirtacious and that does not make them sex objects at all.

They are not hyper sexualised, I don't even like a bunch of those characters, Saskia, Ves and Triss, fine characters, likeable. Philippa and Sile however are villains of the story, you cannot sleep with them at all, neither of them get naked through the course of the game and they're both villainous and working against the player. Seriously...you think these two characters wearing their medieval period dress are "hyper sexaulised"? Please don't ever look up DOA because your blood pressure will rise to extreme levels and your head with explode.

Those are just women wearing normal clothes. I'll show you hyper sexualised, and it looks like this:

Just because a woman uses sex, or wears skimpy clothing, does not make them sexualised or a sex object either and I think that's a backwards view to have.

I think you're being incredibly offensive assuming that I only like these characters because they have been "sexualised". You're stereotyping men as creatures who will only respond to sex, and I'm trying to offer a deeper analysis of the characters but you're just being a block of concrete, putting your fingers in your ears and humming loudly saying "NO HE ONLY LIKES THEM COS OF BOOBS" and frankly it's a bit pathetic to make those assumptions.

 

[endtherapture]

Thanks for posting the comparison chart. As we can see, Triss and Geralt have similar levels of coverage in regards to their clothing and armour so that's not a problem. As they are both in the field wearing field gear it's actually great character design.

Triss:

Geralt:

You just seem to have the incredibly sexist attitude that men can only enjoy female characters if they are sexualised and have a hot body, when I've made it clear I enjoy the characters of TW2 because of their writing. It's a misandric attitude to take, definitely.

 

[Darth Rosenberg]

Those are just women wearing normal clothes.

You're kinda embarrassing yourself and undermining anything you're trying to say with that line. I loved Witcher 2, and well written female characters were a part of the reason why. But it does have its 'issues', and having most of the female character flash their cleavages is one of 'em; they wrote some cracking characters, then rather undermined them with the designs (Triss is an exception being covered up). I love Saskia's character, but even her design - wearing full armour - trades off her exposed cleavage (is it a terrible, objectifying design? no, but it is symptomatic of a wearisome design pattern).

The 'sex as reward' is another no-no.

I think you're being incredibly offensive assuming that I only like these characters because they have been "sexualised". You're stereotyping men as creatures who will only respond to sex, and I'm trying to offer a deeper analysis of the characters but you're just being a block of concrete, putting your fingers in your ears and humming loudly saying "NO HE ONLY LIKES THEM COS OF BOOBS" and frankly it's a bit pathetic to make those assumptions.

Thing is, it looks like you're trying to offer a "deep analysis" whilst blankly refusing that the game has any persistent issues. It is okay to admire and enjoy a product whilst still recognising it has flaws (which is a point Sarkeesian, I believe, always tried to stress. funny how barely anyone paid attention to that bit).

 

[Ranorak]

I haven't read the whole threat, but I just like to point out that you're making a very stupid point, OP.

Just because you can name a bunch of games that you think are not sexist, doesn't mean that you can draw the conclusion:
"Women in games are not systematically oppressed"

 

[endtherapture]

Look, is there anything else to discuss? Enjoy Witcher, and enjoy your belief that it's not a sexist videogame. I'm not even going to bother with you anymore, so keep reading Playboy for the informative articles.

Wow you're really not helping out disproving the stereotype of "feminists are absolutely crazy, men hating bitches" lol. Can't make a valid counter point to my argument so you assume I'm a misogynist reading playboy. Wow.

Those are just women wearing normal clothes.

You're kinda embarrassing yourself and undermining anything you're trying to say with that line. I loved Witcher 2, and well written female characters were a part of the reason why. But it does have its 'issues', and having most of the female character flash their cleavages is one of 'em; they wrote some cracking characters, then rather undermined them with the designs (Triss is an exception being covered up). I love Saskia's character, but even her design - wearing full armour - trades off her exposed cleavage (is it a terrible, objectifying design? no, but it is symptomatic of a wearisome design pattern).

The 'sex as reward' is another no-no.

I think you're being incredibly offensive assuming that I only like these characters because they have been "sexualised". You're stereotyping men as creatures who will only respond to sex, and I'm trying to offer a deeper analysis of the characters but you're just being a block of concrete, putting your fingers in your ears and humming loudly saying "NO HE ONLY LIKES THEM COS OF BOOBS" and frankly it's a bit pathetic to make those assumptions.

Thing is, it looks like you're trying to offer a "deep analysis" whilst blankly refusing that the game has any persistent issues. It is okay to admire and enjoy a product whilst still recognising it has flaws (which is a point Sarkeesian, I believe, always tried to stress. funny how barely anyone paid attention to that bit).

With Saskia, I agree, she could use better armour, but she's a

Spoiler: Spoiler for The Witcher 2

dragon

so she's never really at threat from not wearing exposed armour, so she might as well use her body to gain characters.

I agree yeah, the women dress exposed in the style for the period of time the game is representing (cross reference with paintings etc. from medieval Europe), but the fact that a character in control of their sexuality and able to manipulate men using that is being argued as a BAD thing is equally as degrading to women, because it implies that sluts = bad and virgins = good. I've tried to argue my point with the poster above you but basically been told I only think with my cock, which is absolutely crazy.

 

[zen5887]

The whole opposition to this idea really baffles me.

It confuses and frustrates me.

Can we just take a few steps back for a second and put all the personal attacks and whatever on the ground and close our eyes and just pretend. Pretend that there definitely is is an issue with sexism in games. Pretend that all the AAA game devs and publishers and marketing managers all meetup and decide that the issue with sexism (that we are pretending definitely exists, remember?) has to be dealt with. This meeting has to figure out a way to make games not sexist anymore. After four years of research and surveys and dialogue they figure it out and after four years of long hard work games aren't sexist anymore.

What's different? How are you affected?

Do you really think that our medium is going to be broken apart so horribly if it all of a sudden stops being sexist? Do you think our medium is so fragile that any level of critical examination is going to ruin it?

Why, op, are you so against the idea that games might be sexist? Are you equally against the idea that games might be racist or homophobic? If in three months time the next focus of social analysis on games is race are we going to be seeing thread after thread after thread of "here is why I don't think games are racist"?

Why does it seem like so many people are violently against criticism of our medium when all the criticism is trying to do is make our medium better?

 

[Darth Rosenberg]

I agree yeah, the women dress exposed in the style for the period of time the game is representing (cross reference with paintings etc. from medieval Europe)

Eh, that doesn't quite track for me. This isn't a historical game - it's a work utilizing certain aspects of a general period of history. There was simply no need to retain the direction they chose. Cover up a few more of the female characters, maybe do something about Saskia's decidedly impractical armour, and that'll stop it being quite so male gazey (I think Saskia's a badass, 'sexy' character - but she'd still be both those things if she did up her own armour properly... ).

The Witcher 2 is the way it is because of male fanservice, and it extends beyond the game itself - and that is, forgive the pun, quite revealing about the creators and publishers intentions; Triss in the game is well designed. But virtual Playboy 'shoots' of Triss? Fans will always create all kinds of variously sexual art, and that's fine. But presenting an otherwise superb female character as a sex object in a porn mag? That's--- iffy, to say the very least...

...but the fact that a character in control of their sexuality and able to manipulate men using that is being argued as a BAD thing is equally as degrading to women, because it implies that sluts = bad and virgins = good. I've tried to argue my point with the poster above you but basically been told I only think with my cock, which is absolutely crazy.

I'm not sure whether you're referring to specific characters.

Because I was referring to the banal 'NPC gives Geralt a fuck' just for completing some crappy sidequest. Those are not female characters behaving with sexual agency - they are just as distasteful as the original's cards; they are there to reward male, straight players with virtual sex.

That, plus many of the outfit designs, plus the Triss shoot? It really doesn't paint the game or the creators in a particularly good light. Does any of that take away from the solid gameplay? The great world art? The first-rate writing that puts most other major companies to shame? Not for me, no, but I understand why some take issue with it.

Like I said, I wouldn't call it sexist, I wouldn't call it 'not sexist'. It's a genuinely great game with some quite glaring, face-palm inducing sexism in it. None of us need to sort the world and all its created works into Sexist or Not-Sexist boxes - doing so just makes genuine discussion and debate almost impossible.