Would a proper 7 season run of Enterprise have saved it?

[MrBoBo]

Did it save Voyager? No? Well then.

But it helped both TNG and DS9.

The first two seasons of TNG were almost as bad.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

Probably not. Granted I never really watched much of Enterprise. One thing I didn't like was the conflict between the Vulcans and the Andorians. That just didn't seem right.

 

[TheVampwizimp_v1legacy]

Saved it from what, is the question. From being godawful for 2 seasons, and mediocre for 2 more? 3 good seasons would have just given us 3 good seasons. The balance of the show would still have been crap.

Now, I did recently rewatch the last 2 seasons and yes, it was better than the first half of the show, and I would have been down for another season or two after the improvement it showed, but it was never great, and was never going to be remembered like TNG and DS9.

 

[Major_Tom]

If they actually stuck with the premise "Pre-Federation starship doing stuff", and focused on the lesser know Federation races and first contacts and what not. But they fucked up from the beginning.

- Let's name the ship Enterprise!
- B-but no one ever mentioned if, it was never on any ready room display.
- Bah, no one will notice, let's also make it the most important ship in the galaxy! Oooh, let's have them meet the Ferengi, everyone loves those little scoundrels!
- B-but the first contact with the Ferengi was in TNG!
- Bah, no one pays attention to little details. Oh, and make the ship look more advanced than Voyager.
- B-but...

Speaking of Voyager, they did the same thing there. It's a ship lost in the Delta quadrant. How will they survive with limited resources thousands of light years from the nearest re-supply base? Oh, and by limited resources I mean unlimited power for fucking around in the holodeck, unlimited fuel, unlimited food, clothing, weapons (well with unlimited energy, we can just replicate everything), unlimited shuttles for blowing up (15), and unlimited photon torpedoes for that stupid "full spread". Oh, and just dump that warp core, we have a bunch of those lying around.

 

[FalloutJack]

Everywhere Star Trek is discussed, people shit on Voyager. Dare I even say that it was my favorite? (Except for Kes, I found her story lines to be unbearable.)

I thought Enterprise was fine. It ended when I was starting to get into it, so I have no strong opinions either way. But more is always better, just as new is always better. Or so they say.

I liked Voyager, and the fact that it actually reached a conclusion means that other people liked it too. Didn't like Enterprise, didn't like most of DS9. They had their moments, but it wasn't enough.

 

[MrBoBo]

imo the final to Voyager was even worse.

Sure Enterprise had a really lame, nonsensical hollow-deck where Tucker pointlessly died.

But Janeway just erased the timeline because it didn't suit her. Broke back technology that could have potentially made the Borg stronger than ever, gave everyone information about the future and treated the Borg as simply "bad guy we must kill" than a sentient being deserving of life like Picard. I believe the Borg Queen even offers her safe passage if she didn't infringe on the hive, which she ignores.

The writing is really, really terrible and nonsensical. See that awesome future armor and weapons that can one shot kill them? Let's allow them to shoot at us for a while and bring our armor down to about 20%, because... because....

 

[Wrex Brogan]

Maybe - depends entirely on how much influence Brannon Braga would have had over the show still, though. ************ is kinda the guy responsible for all the mess with Voyager and the god-awful first two seasons of Enterprise, and it only started to improve once he and Rick Berman passed the Executive Producer role over to someone else.

...also probably would've been improved if they killed off the entire crew and swapped them in with anyone else. Fucking hell, even when the writing improved were a lot of those chucklefucks unlikable. How Archer ever became a captain is truly worrying given his lack of... well, anything at all resembling competence, sanity or intelligence. Then again, maybe I've watched too much SFDebris and just get stuck remembering the episode where he caused a diplomatic incident over his dog.

 

[Bek359]

and treated the Borg as simply "bad guy we must kill" than a sentient being deserving of life like Picard. I believe the Borg Queen even offers her safe passage if she didn't infringe on the hive, which she ignores.

If you're suggesting that Picard wouldn't treat the Borg as enemies to be destroyed at all costs... you don't know much about Picard. At all. There are VERY few people in the galaxy who hate the Borg more than Picard does. There's literally a well-known scene where Picard pulls out a submachine gun and deep-sixes a squad of Borg while roaring in rage and hatred before rushing to stave one of their heads in with the butt of the gun and ranting about how he'll make them all pay for what they've done.

Janeway has very many faults, but "she doesn't respect the Borg's right to exist like Picard would" is one of the weirdest and most laughable statements about Trek I've ever seen.

 

[MrBoBo]

and treated the Borg as simply "bad guy we must kill" than a sentient being deserving of life like Picard. I believe the Borg Queen even offers her safe passage if she didn't infringe on the hive, which she ignores.

If you're suggesting that Picard wouldn't treat the Borg as enemies to be destroyed at all costs... you don't know much about Picard. At all. There are VERY few people in the galaxy who hate the Borg more than Picard does. There's literally a well-known scene where Picard pulls out a submachine gun and deep-sixes a squad of Borg while roaring in rage and hatred before rushing to stave one of their heads in with the butt of the gun and ranting about how he'll make them all pay for what they've done.

Janeway has very many faults, but "she doesn't respect the Borg's right to exist like Picard would" is one of the weirdest and most laughable statements about Trek I've ever seen.

I think you've made a grave mistake with this haughty attitude my friend.

It seems you're purely going by First Contact, which is basically a totally re-written character for the sake of "average joe".

If you watched the show (and other fans will easily be able to contest to the this) he not only saved a Borg member and returns them to the collective, he outright defended their right to exist when being accused of mutiny, specifically FOR not destroying them. In the case of Wolf359, they are a direct threat, but otherwise, he let's them go on their way, completely resisting a petty need for revenge.

To further iterate on the point, in their introduction "Q WHO", Q is the one who introduced them to the Borg by accelerating them through the galaxy, it is he, not the Borg who gets the ire of Picard.

This is later re-conned badly by Enterprise, who just shoved the Borg in to boost ratings, rather than attempt "good writing".

So yea, Picard could have done EXACTLY what Janeway did, it's even suggested, but opts instead to leave them in peace, because his writers were not 14 year old boys who wanted him to be a cool bad dude.


You see here how he's using a reasoned, thought out response? That's because, in the series, unlike the movie.... he's driven by logic, not emotion, like that women, which is pretty much who he is in the "the line" scene.

He actually does have an emotional moment returning to earth, but he blames HIMSELF, not them. i.e. guilt



Ironically, Picards final episode "All Good Things", has him use different timelines to save the universe, sacrificing every including his life multiple times, while Janeway, in one of the worst finals ever, isn't satisfied even though she got home with practically all her crew, so basically just screws everyone and everything over everyone, including the Borg, who (again in case you didn't get it the first time), offered to leave them in peace if they went the long away around ,away from from Borg technology.

Here's that scene I was on about, instead of shooting, the writers of this awful final, want to show how badass the ship is, by letting them pointlessly whittle down the super duper future technology, because that's kewl kewl. They wanted an action adventure show with a female Kirk.


Going into Borg territory, breaking the multiple prime directives, being the aggressor for something not out of necessity but personal indulgence at the expense of everyone else. Janeway really was a jerk.

 

[TheVampwizimp_v1legacy]

and treated the Borg as simply "bad guy we must kill" than a sentient being deserving of life like Picard. I believe the Borg Queen even offers her safe passage if she didn't infringe on the hive, which she ignores.

If you're suggesting that Picard wouldn't treat the Borg as enemies to be destroyed at all costs... you don't know much about Picard. At all. There are VERY few people in the galaxy who hate the Borg more than Picard does. There's literally a well-known scene where Picard pulls out a submachine gun and deep-sixes a squad of Borg while roaring in rage and hatred before rushing to stave one of their heads in with the butt of the gun and ranting about how he'll make them all pay for what they've done.

Janeway has very many faults, but "she doesn't respect the Borg's right to exist like Picard would" is one of the weirdest and most laughable statements about Trek I've ever seen.

I think you've made a grave mistake with this haughty attitude my friend.

Spoiler

It seems you're purely going by First Contact, which is basically a totally re-written character for the sake of "average joe".

If you watched the show (and other fans will easily be able to contest to the this) he not only saved a Borg member and returns them to the collective, he outright defended their right to exist when being accused of mutiny, specifically FOR not destroying them. In the case of Wolf359, they are a direct threat, but otherwise, he let's them go on their way, completely resisting a petty need for revenge.

To further iterate on the point, in their introduction "Q WHO", Q is the one who introduced them to the Borg by accelerating them through the galaxy, it is he, not the Borg who gets the ire of Picard.

This is later re-conned badly by Enterprise, who just shoved the Borg in to boost ratings, rather than attempt "good writing".

So yea, Picard could have done EXACTLY what Janeway did, it's even suggested, but opts instead to leave them in peace, because his writers were not 14 year old boys who wanted him to be a cool bad dude.


You see here how he's using a reasoned, thought out response? That's because, in the series, unlike the movie.... he's driven by logic, not emotion, like that women, which is pretty much who he is in the "the line" scene.

He actually does have an emotional moment returning to earth, but he blames HIMSELF, not them. i.e. guilt



Ironically, Picards final episode "All Good Things", has him use different timelines to save the universe, sacrificing every including his life multiple times, while Janeway, in one of the worst finals ever, isn't satisfied even though she got home with practically all her crew, so basically just screws everyone and everything over everyone, including the Borg, who (again in case you didn't get it the first time), offered to leave them in peace if they went the long away around ,away from from Borg technology.

Here's that scene I was on about, instead of shooting, the writers of this awful final, want to show how badass the ship is, by letting them pointlessly whittle down the super duper future technology, because that's kewl kewl. They wanted an action adventure show with a female Kirk.


Going into Borg territory, breaking the multiple prime directives, being the aggressor for something not out of necessity but personal indulgence at the expense of everyone else. Janeway really was a jerk.

Spoilered for length.

Bek359 has it right, i.e. Picard killing borg. The only reason he didn't send Hugh back to destroy the collective was because Hugh was no longer borg, and that would have meant murdering him. But when it comes to killing drones, ships, the Queen, any and all borg, he's more than up for it. The Picard in First Contact wasn't a "re-written" character, it was a natural and entirely understandable attitude given his experiences. He did face the borg a couple times after being assimilated, but First Contact was the first time he was faced with borg on his ship, killing and assimilating his crew, threatening all of humanity, again, and under the strain he finally showed the scars from his experiences.

Picard may have placed some of the blame on himself, some of it on Q, but it's a weird thing to think that he doesn't also blame the borg themselves, and wouldn't jump at the chance to destroy them.

I'm not arguing your points on Janeway and Voyager's finale, that was a terrible, stupid episode and she did terrible, stupid things, but Picard certainly has no respect for the "right to exist" when it comes to the borg.

 

[MrBoBo]

and treated the Borg as simply "bad guy we must kill" than a sentient being deserving of life like Picard. I believe the Borg Queen even offers her safe passage if she didn't infringe on the hive, which she ignores.

If you're suggesting that Picard wouldn't treat the Borg as enemies to be destroyed at all costs... you don't know much about Picard. At all. There are VERY few people in the galaxy who hate the Borg more than Picard does. There's literally a well-known scene where Picard pulls out a submachine gun and deep-sixes a squad of Borg while roaring in rage and hatred before rushing to stave one of their heads in with the butt of the gun and ranting about how he'll make them all pay for what they've done.

Janeway has very many faults, but "she doesn't respect the Borg's right to exist like Picard would" is one of the weirdest and most laughable statements about Trek I've ever seen.

I think you've made a grave mistake with this haughty attitude my friend.

Spoiler

It seems you're purely going by First Contact, which is basically a totally re-written character for the sake of "average joe".

If you watched the show (and other fans will easily be able to contest to the this) he not only saved a Borg member and returns them to the collective, he outright defended their right to exist when being accused of mutiny, specifically FOR not destroying them. In the case of Wolf359, they are a direct threat, but otherwise, he let's them go on their way, completely resisting a petty need for revenge.

To further iterate on the point, in their introduction "Q WHO", Q is the one who introduced them to the Borg by accelerating them through the galaxy, it is he, not the Borg who gets the ire of Picard.

This is later re-conned badly by Enterprise, who just shoved the Borg in to boost ratings, rather than attempt "good writing".

So yea, Picard could have done EXACTLY what Janeway did, it's even suggested, but opts instead to leave them in peace, because his writers were not 14 year old boys who wanted him to be a cool bad dude.


You see here how he's using a reasoned, thought out response? That's because, in the series, unlike the movie.... he's driven by logic, not emotion, like that women, which is pretty much who he is in the "the line" scene.

He actually does have an emotional moment returning to earth, but he blames HIMSELF, not them. i.e. guilt



Ironically, Picards final episode "All Good Things", has him use different timelines to save the universe, sacrificing every including his life multiple times, while Janeway, in one of the worst finals ever, isn't satisfied even though she got home with practically all her crew, so basically just screws everyone and everything over everyone, including the Borg, who (again in case you didn't get it the first time), offered to leave them in peace if they went the long away around ,away from from Borg technology.

Here's that scene I was on about, instead of shooting, the writers of this awful final, want to show how badass the ship is, by letting them pointlessly whittle down the super duper future technology, because that's kewl kewl. They wanted an action adventure show with a female Kirk.


Going into Borg territory, breaking the multiple prime directives, being the aggressor for something not out of necessity but personal indulgence at the expense of everyone else. Janeway really was a jerk.

Spoilered for length.

Bek359 has it right, i.e. Picard killing borg. The only reason he didn't send Hugh back to destroy the collective was because Hugh was no longer borg, and that would have meant murdering him. But when it comes to killing drones, ships, the Queen, any and all borg, he's more than up for it. The Picard in First Contact wasn't a "re-written" character, it was a natural and entirely understandable attitude given his experiences. He did face the borg a couple times after being assimilated, but First Contact was the first time he was faced with borg on his ship, killing and assimilating his crew, threatening all of humanity, again, and under the strain he finally showed the scars from his experiences.

Picard may have placed some of the blame on himself, some of it on Q, but it's a weird thing to think that he doesn't also blame the borg themselves, and wouldn't jump at the chance to destroy them.

I'm not arguing your points on Janeway and Voyager's finale, that was a terrible, stupid episode and she did terrible, stupid things, but Picard certainly has no respect for the "right to exist" when it comes to the borg.

Nope, in the later episodes (I believe Inquisition) he is forced to defend himself on the matter and directly refers to the Borg as sentient beings deserving of life.

This attitude not only extends to the Borg, but the Crystal Entity making direct reference to Whale eating small fish.

We of course also have Measure Of Man where he argued that Data is a living entity.

The only time in the series, where he shows any kind of hated for the Borg, anywhere, is at the start of I,Borg where he has a conversation with Guinan in regards to using Hugh to destroy them, which she promptly implies he's being ignorant, which by the end of the episode, in proper Star Trek fashion, he has acknowledged.

So no, unless you specifically use First Contact which is a total re-write of the character for dramatic effect, Picard has a very enlightened attitude.

DS9, which didn't actually have the Borg at all, barring the opening episode done a far, far superior job than Voyager and actually ties in with Picard guilt. Instead of having them villain of the week, they directly serve in the backstory of Sisko as well as setting up the series itself.

 

[TheVampwizimp_v1legacy]

and treated the Borg as simply "bad guy we must kill" than a sentient being deserving of life like Picard. I believe the Borg Queen even offers her safe passage if she didn't infringe on the hive, which she ignores.

If you're suggesting that Picard wouldn't treat the Borg as enemies to be destroyed at all costs... you don't know much about Picard. At all. There are VERY few people in the galaxy who hate the Borg more than Picard does. There's literally a well-known scene where Picard pulls out a submachine gun and deep-sixes a squad of Borg while roaring in rage and hatred before rushing to stave one of their heads in with the butt of the gun and ranting about how he'll make them all pay for what they've done.

Janeway has very many faults, but "she doesn't respect the Borg's right to exist like Picard would" is one of the weirdest and most laughable statements about Trek I've ever seen.

I think you've made a grave mistake with this haughty attitude my friend.

Spoiler

It seems you're purely going by First Contact, which is basically a totally re-written character for the sake of "average joe".

If you watched the show (and other fans will easily be able to contest to the this) he not only saved a Borg member and returns them to the collective, he outright defended their right to exist when being accused of mutiny, specifically FOR not destroying them. In the case of Wolf359, they are a direct threat, but otherwise, he let's them go on their way, completely resisting a petty need for revenge.

To further iterate on the point, in their introduction "Q WHO", Q is the one who introduced them to the Borg by accelerating them through the galaxy, it is he, not the Borg who gets the ire of Picard.

This is later re-conned badly by Enterprise, who just shoved the Borg in to boost ratings, rather than attempt "good writing".

So yea, Picard could have done EXACTLY what Janeway did, it's even suggested, but opts instead to leave them in peace, because his writers were not 14 year old boys who wanted him to be a cool bad dude.


You see here how he's using a reasoned, thought out response? That's because, in the series, unlike the movie.... he's driven by logic, not emotion, like that women, which is pretty much who he is in the "the line" scene.

He actually does have an emotional moment returning to earth, but he blames HIMSELF, not them. i.e. guilt



Ironically, Picards final episode "All Good Things", has him use different timelines to save the universe, sacrificing every including his life multiple times, while Janeway, in one of the worst finals ever, isn't satisfied even though she got home with practically all her crew, so basically just screws everyone and everything over everyone, including the Borg, who (again in case you didn't get it the first time), offered to leave them in peace if they went the long away around ,away from from Borg technology.

Here's that scene I was on about, instead of shooting, the writers of this awful final, want to show how badass the ship is, by letting them pointlessly whittle down the super duper future technology, because that's kewl kewl. They wanted an action adventure show with a female Kirk.


Going into Borg territory, breaking the multiple prime directives, being the aggressor for something not out of necessity but personal indulgence at the expense of everyone else. Janeway really was a jerk.

Spoilered for length.

Bek359 has it right, i.e. Picard killing borg. The only reason he didn't send Hugh back to destroy the collective was because Hugh was no longer borg, and that would have meant murdering him. But when it comes to killing drones, ships, the Queen, any and all borg, he's more than up for it. The Picard in First Contact wasn't a "re-written" character, it was a natural and entirely understandable attitude given his experiences. He did face the borg a couple times after being assimilated, but First Contact was the first time he was faced with borg on his ship, killing and assimilating his crew, threatening all of humanity, again, and under the strain he finally showed the scars from his experiences.

Picard may have placed some of the blame on himself, some of it on Q, but it's a weird thing to think that he doesn't also blame the borg themselves, and wouldn't jump at the chance to destroy them.

I'm not arguing your points on Janeway and Voyager's finale, that was a terrible, stupid episode and she did terrible, stupid things, but Picard certainly has no respect for the "right to exist" when it comes to the borg.

Nope, in the later episodes (I believe Inquistion) he is forced to defend himself on the matter and directly refers to the Borg as sentient beings deserving of life.

This attitude not only extends to the Borg, but the Crystal Entity making direct reference to Whale eating small fish.

We of course also have Measure Of Man where he argued that Data is a living entity.

The only time in the series, where he shows any kind of hated for the Borg, anywhere, is at the start of I,Borg where he has a conversation with Guinan in regards to using Hugh to destroy them, which she promptly implies he's being ignorant, which by the end of the episode, in proper Star Trek fashion, he has acknowledged.

So no, unless you specifically use First Contact which is a total re-write of the character for dramatic effect, Picard has a very enlightened attitude.

Pretty much, specifically because of First Contact, the Borg became promoted from "another deadly threat" to "thee threat" which Voyager abused to high hell.

And that's partly the issue as well, aside from Janeway being a complete jerk, The Borg went from an ominous threat to a trip to Spain.

While DS9 done it's own thing, introducing complex layered villains (The Dominion), Voyager waved The Borg at every opportunity to the point they diminished to villain of the week.

In Q,Who they serve a specific purpose, a demonstration for Picard as to just how dangerous the universe is.

In Voyager they are a mustache twiddling villain who exists as something to blow up - public knows what the Borg are and we need big scary antagonist. It's absolutely the lazyest possible thing they could do.

I honestly don't remember Picard ever saying the borg are sentient and have a right to exist, but I'll take your word for it. I still don't think that means he is willing to live and let live. I can say that the Nazis who murdered millions of people for their own twisted ends are still humans who deserve a chance at life, and also feel that if I ever came across a real-life Nazi intent on slaughtering innocents that I would put a bullet in his brain to stop him. (Yeah, I know, Godwin, but I think it's fair to compare Nazis and the borg.)

Guinan was not the one who convinced Picard that using Hugh to destroy the borg was wrong. She was as gung-ho about doing just that as anyone, but when she actually talked to Hugh and realized he was becoming a person, she told Picard he needed to talk to Hugh as well. It was Hugh himself who showed both of them that he was no longer a borg, which is to say, he had become sentient, something the individual drones in the hive are not. The collective itself may be a thinking mind, but it is at best an unfeeling logic machine, operating on an instinct to assimilate more than reason, which is what sets the borg apart from Data.

As for other examples of Picard defending a non-traditional view of what is alive, those are irrelevant. The issue is specific to Picard's relationship to the borg, and the horrifying things they did to him and made him do to others. He can absolutely believe the Crystalline Entity deserves a chance AND also feel that the borg deserve none.

And again, I agree with you about how Voyager absolutely neutered the borg, it's really frustrating, but that's not what I'm debating right now.