Would you live in a traditional, tribal, society if you could?

[esserin]

I would not. Modern health care (Vaccines for children and surgeries), access to more knowledge than I could ever hope to learn in a single lifetime and, of course, all the different ways to keep myself amused would be too much to sacrifice for the simplicity of a hunter-gatherer life.

Honestly, the people here are exaggerating how hard a tribal life would be. The noble savage is a myth but so is the idea that life was short and brutish. They would have a sort of post-scarcity economy since their population tends to be low and nature provides. They actually had a smaller rate of death among babies than agricultural societies because constantly carrying a kid around would be tiring and so they had less children and gave more attention to the kids they did have and low populations means diseases have a hard time spreading around.

The people would NOT die at 30 years old. That's just a misinterpretation of statistics. The low age number at death is because dead babies are put into the equation and, again, this data is coming from agricultural societies not hunter-gatherers who are hard to track. Dental care is also largely unnecessary due to eating a healthy diet that is low on sugar.

People are still trying to figure out why we want from hunter-gatherer to agricultural because the transition caused such a drastic drop in our quality of life.

 

[davidmc1158_v1legacy]

People are still trying to figure out why we want from hunter-gatherer to agricultural because the transition caused such a drastic drop in our quality of life.

The general reason I've heard from anthropologists is the theory that agriculture, while lowering certain aspects of quality of life, at least semi-guaranteed a steady and reliable food supply. And with that steady food supply, societies could then move on to develop other things which provided advantageous amenities that living a more sedentary lifestyle would allow, like the technology of cloth production, pottery (better long-term storage), architecture (better defense against the elements), and so on. In the end, everything is a trade-off in one form or another. As a side note, the problems modern society have with dental care are more recent, apparently really kicking in after the growth of the sugar trade in the 1700s. Medieval skulls often had quite good teeth, with the wearing down patterns on the enamel being similar to the that which the hunter-gather societies had.

OT: Put me down for a "Hell No!" for the reasons of modern medical care (I'm blind as the proverbial bat and need my glasses to function) and the lack of such amenities as toilet paper. I'm a wuss and would miss my physical comforts, thank you very much.

 

[esserin]

snip

The general reason I've heard from anthropologists is the theory that agriculture, while lowering certain aspects of quality of life, at least semi-guaranteed a steady and reliable food supply. And with that steady food supply, societies could then move on to develop other things which provided advantageous amenities that living a more sedentary lifestyle would allow, like the technology of cloth production, pottery (better long-term storage), architecture (better defense against the elements), and so on. In the end, everything is a trade-off in one form or another. As a side note, the problems modern society have with dental care are more recent, apparently really kicking in after the growth of the sugar trade in the 1700s. Medieval skulls often had quite good teeth, with the wearing down patterns on the enamel being similar to the that which the hunter-gather societies had.

Huh. I had no idea it was only in the 17th century that dental care really started becoming a problem. The more you know.

I've heard that theory and I'm pretty sure it's crap. I mean who's going to completely change the way they live for a lifestyle full of backbreaking labor because even though they have no way of knowing so, they will help future generations. That's the flaw with that theory. They would need to be prescient for it to make sense.

A lot of anthropologists consider this one giant mystery. Where and how did hunter-gatherers transition to farmers.

I think a hint will probably be found in Göbekli Tepe, a massive complex older that is about as old as the neolithic revolution. That's some seriously interesting crap.

 

[davidmc1158_v1legacy]

Huh. I had no idea it was only in the 17th century that dental care really started becoming a problem. The more you know.

I've heard that theory and I'm pretty sure it's crap. I mean who's going to completely change the way they live for a lifestyle full of backbreaking labor because even though they have no way of knowing so, they will help future generations. That's the flaw with that theory. They would need to be prescient for it to make sense.

A lot of anthropologists consider this one giant mystery. Where and how did hunter-gatherers transition to farmers.

I think a hint will probably be found in Göbekli Tepe, a massive complex older that is about as old as the neolithic revolution. That's some seriously interesting crap.

As I understand it, the persons that transitioned to agriculture did so gradually. Essentially they went from coming around to the same area that certain plants produced harvestable material to actively planting the seeds to spread those particular plants to new locations then coming around to living near those plants nearly year round in order to take advantage of the system. The rest came about as a side-effect that simply made the whole 'regular food being available system' more appealing to various groups and aiding in the spread of such a system to various tribal groups. As such, it was a fairly gradual, self-reinforcing thing and not a huge change-over for any particular generation. The only future generation you would have to be worried about in the gradual model is yourself from year to year and trying to ensure a food supply for your children and grandchildren.

I'm nowhere near knowledgeable enough about the whole area to make any educated descriptions, though. If I remember correctly (always a dangerous assumption), the way it was described to me took into account the change in weather patterns and the need to secure a steady/reliable food supply that those changes caused by the last great ice age.

See, this is why I want my own T.A.R.D.I.S. I could just pop back and take a look around to find out. Bloody Time Lords and their propitiatory hold on technology. D:

Captcha: learn. advance. See, Gallifrey? Even captcha agrees you need to loan me one of those things!

 

[Treeinthewoods]

Having spent time in Africa I can honestly say hell no, hell no, never. Romanticizing that kind of life is as privileged as you can get, that shit sucks.

 

[pookie101]

my friend did for a couple of years until health issues forced her to return. she loved it, how family orientated people were, how close everyone was, thing that surprised me was that with a hunter gatherer group it was 2-3 hours of foraging and that was pretty much the needed work done for the day

 

[Thaluikhain]

I'm sorry, but I don't see how anyone who isn't blinded by the fairytale description for the tribal life would actually want to live in one. There isn't even a single benefit from that. Worse life in every aspect. Why would you chose that?

Yeah...by extension, post apocalyptic stuff. Wouldn't it be great if zombies ate everyone, and I could be OtT macho and have and adoring band of survivors obey my every whim cause of how awesome I am?

Cause that's exactly what wouldn't happen.

Also I watched that movie. A funny one. The tribe was living in harmony until dude from a plane dropped a Cola bottle and they found it. The bottle was harder than anything they had and they used it as a tool. They thought it's a gift form the Gods. Then they started fighting over who will use it since it's a better tool than their tools.
Long story short, good movie, but that's all it is. It's a idealized tribe that has no problems until the bottle drops. A tribe without problems is a clear indicator that the movie isn't showing real life nor is it trying.

"The Gods Must be Crazy", mentioned in the post above yours, as it happens.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

...No.

God no.

Why?

Just no.

Technology is my fucking life-blood at this point and I'm not big on spending a lot of time in nature, though I do recognize and revel in its beauty on occasion.

I need me some games. I need me some anime. I need me some novels. I need me some manga. Etc.

I need me a means of avoiding actually thinking about life. Or, you know, death. Mostly the death part.

In fact, just the death part.

 

[Cavouku]

I'm going to approach this from a different angle. I don't necessarily want to be part of a "tribe". Let's call this a "coalition".

Secondly, let's pretend that the locations I have access to are devoid of contact with civilized society, but that I am as I am now, having known society, as are the rest of my coalition, to whichever extent they knew it before. We simply are unable to travel to locations where there are any remnants of civilized humanity.

I love going outdoors, hiking, and researching (though to my discredit, rarely practicing) survival techniques. Let's pretend I've more or less nailed the important ones (Hunting, gathering, herbalism, knots, firemaking, basic camp architecture, cooking... probably a few I'm missing).

This coalition would be a group of people who perhaps share a base camp, but otherwise live out as they wish, in the wild, as long as it does not infringe upon the rest of the coalition, or the wilds around them. We can convene at the base camp if we wish to trade items, or stories, or knowledge, but we are not bound by customs or traditions that one would typically associate with tribes.

Ideally, this coalition would have a variety of skills. Crafting skills, like woodcraft, clayworking, and even metalcraft would be great. Some may be better hunters, some may have a better knowledge of wild plants, and if we want, we can travel as a group, or branch out on our own and come back every now and again.

I'd actually find this life almost idyllic (assuming the civilized world does not encroach upon it. Let's pretend it's basically After People, with all pollution, radiation or what have you done away with by the same magic). Sure, I'd be more likely to die of disease, but... so? I was gonna die anyway, eventually. Even if it's a short life, it could be a fascinating one. The natural world is one to explore, to me. I almost get upset when walking through the deeper wilderness and come across a chopping, or remnants of another camp. I want the new, and I'm willing to die young for it.

Besides, it's not all bad. Infection is your main concern, as many human-transmitable diseases are less of a concern. Parasites and other biota should be manageable if you're boiling your water and treating your food, and while herbal medicine is not as reliable, and rather under-researched, it can still remedy certain ailments if you know what you're looking for and how to prepare it.

Hunter gatherer societies were largely unable to form a surplus of foods, but they did not have to work as laboriously to meet their caloric intake (citation needed). Though I imagine the diet would take some adjusting.

TL;DR - I would live in a "coalition" in the wilderness, but probably not a "tribe", assuming we did some research and practice beforehand.

 

[Cavouku]

*Snipped*

In that kind of society on average, "Dying young" means dying in childbirth or infancy. So... no long walks for you. You also view the wilderness differently when it's your life at stake every time you go into it. You view your life differently when your young wife and your children will die if you don't come back. When you ground yourself in the reality of your life, and not just the parts you want to think of, it's a nightmare.

Besides, most illness doesn't kill you, it weakens, hurts, or deforms you. Chagas for instance, slowly kills you after making you weak. Botflies won't kill you, but you might wish they had. Malaria kills plenty, but it also just hurts plenty for a lifetime. All of this happening not just to you, but to everyone you love and care about.

I accept your premise, but reject as it applies to me and my coalition.

For example; I will neither get pregnant, nor did I die as an infant. Certainly that is a concern for other members of my coalition, and perhaps me at another time, but the degree to which that concerns me is left for me to decide, assuming I don't rely on them in any great capacity.

I haven't had the experience yet of truly living to not die in the wild, so on the first aspect I can say nothing accept say that in those times I have felt my life was in peril (probably only few times, once in grave sickness, another in a perilous position on a cliff) I took a very accepting view on it. I am going to die someday, and bravo to whatever kills me. There's a sort of fear, certainly, but it's more a reaction of the body than a thought of the mind. My mind was more contemplative than panicky. I don't know how comparable starving is to severe illness, and other perils to almost-falling, but that's all I've got to go on.

But I have no wife or child to be concerned about. Perhaps I'd end up with one, but whether or not I do is a choice I would make and deal with based on circumstances. At best, I would probably have some reliance on my coalition for specific jobs.

As for the illnesses, I've got nothing on that. I only know a few herbal remedies local to my area, and due to the inherent random strength of different localities of plants - heck, individual plants in the same locality - it's not the most dependable fix for anything. If an illness gets me, and gets me good, I'm more or less waiting for death. But, that's life. I'm okay with that (I say, perfectly healthy in a chair, with it not yet happening to me).

I have no idea if any of my family or friends are in my coalition or not, I haven't assumed I have that kind of control over it. Whether or not I would bond well with the others, well... Perfectly honest? I don't strongly bond to people anyways. Everything just kinda comes and goes, and that's alright by me. Again, this depends on whether I can be completely self-sufficient, or I'm relying heavily on the coalition.

You raise good points for many considering the lifestyle. I just don't know if they resonate with me much. I'm young though, surely I'll be singing a different tune when I'm 30 or 40.

 

[kasperbbs]

Hell no. That kind of lifestyle is hardly pleasant, freezing and starving during winter and it's pretty much a death sentence if you get sick or injured. Not to mention no toilet paper or hot showers or millions of other things that we have at our disposal in a modern society.

 

[Cavouku]

It's true that your scenario was more specific than I gave it credit for. Still, you have to look at the fate of even well experienced and equipped expeditions of the past for a guide to what can go wrong. From failed interpersonal group dynamics (which you are stuck with always, are totally interdependent on to live, and have no privacy from) to more sinister issues like the neighboring isolates decided that they want you dead.

I'd just say that when you look into the wisdom of a recent past that was far less difficult and day-to-day than tribal living, there is a general theme that, "You don't have anything, if you don't have your health." We tend to look at that on as a matter of being sick, or not-sick, but if you're out in the wild you are ALWAYS sick. Life in those situations is a balancing act between your total parasite load, a lifetime of insults to your immune system, and how much of a fight it can mount. Everyone has worms, everyone has all kinds of nasty bugs in those living conditions, and honestly that just destroys any zest you might have for life.

It makes it hard to do the work you need to manage to survive, and it's why otherwise uncomfortable and minor parasites can be lethal in the 3rd world. Then there is just the fact that for the rest of your life you'll probably eat an extremely limited diet. Even a plentiful one is going to be incredibly boring.

While my scenario doesn't necessarily have neighbouring isolates, I will not say it doesn't. That's certainly a concern if they can't be made cooperative. Same with the groups, which my scenario certainly has. While there is some capacity to survive alone, it is basically just living to die, as I can't imagine you'd be doing anything other than surviving more or less every second without a helping hand or two. I have no remedy for human behaviour, or I'd probably be God-king of Earth.

As for the diet, I have to agree. I don't personally take much issue with it, and have subsisted on low variety for a few months, but usually had a flare to add to it. I wouldn't see this as the worst problem, but it's a problem I recognize, and have no easy way to deal with other than nomadic/semi-nomadic life, and a good, varied cookbook.

For the parasites and sickness thing, it depends what you mean. If you're talking about the average human immune strength and parasite load, I admit I have no idea what mine is, but I would hope fairly low, and if not, I have no idea what's keeping me going, fully admitted. If you're specifying tribal societies, I'm under the impression much of that has to do with a lack of knowledge on treating food and proper hygiene, which would certainly be one of my most labouriously researched and practiced skills before attempting such a feat. I don't know if that would be enough, but I would certainly try.

Now of course, I like my life, and as much as I may have been leaning on "yes", I'm probably still a marked "no" for the most part on this question, but I would certainly try to make the most of that situation (assuming I get ample time to study and practice first. Otherwise - SAVE ME!).

 

[Vicarious Reality]

Funny since i did grow up like that

Depending of course on how you define that

The foreigner introduced thing could be considered the internet.... or processed food

Depends on the tribal society. I remember watching a documentary about some tribes in Siberia and how they keep up with the modern times. It was interesting seeing a family in an igloo wearing traditional clothes while watching television and serfing the web all powered by a diesel generator.

However they were still devout pagans and took time out of their day to worship the gods so the snow storm would spare them. Some are actually proffesors that studied in Moscow, yet came back to their tribe.

The economy of such tribes is fairly interesting. They get most of their income from selling deer and hide. They started to use internet only to be able to communicate with traders more efficiently and are generally fairly skeptical about technology.

One problem, when somebody is sick, the tribe is usually unable to provide medical services. Plus, there are no roads to the tribes, so the doctors are forces to arrive by helicopter and it takes a few hours to get from the tribal areas to the nearest hospital.

This is practically us
I hate living in cities

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