WW2 Games from a Nazi Perspective...

[Stepan_RUS']

Yes, forgive me if I find the subjugation of 6 million people slightly upsetting.

I could certianly understand this if you were one of the jew, but i feel like you are not.

Uh... no. There are plenty of reasons as to why people find Naziism, and it's followers, to be reprehensible. For starters, it is a philosophy that is, at its very core, violent, hateful, and bigoted. Also, don't use the term "Nazi" to describe the ENTIRETY of the German people, or their army. It's a terrible generalization. And buddy, if you think the only reason people find the holocaust to be a disgusting war crime, is because the Allies won the war, you're quite delusional.

The natural man is violent, hateful, and bigoted. different people hate and fight with eachother. For example: you hate Nazis. i'm sure Nazis dont like you either. That's how it was when men began, and it is how it will be until the twilight of the gods. the weak are killed by the strong, that is evolution, no? why is that evil? You speak of evil as if it is an objective absolute. I did not realise you were the allfather of men and could decide what is good and evil

I can garuntee you that if the Nazis had won, people would be praising their heroic victory over the evil baby-killing allies, and the people claiming that the holocaust actually happened would be in the minority instead. It is called propaganda, and what we call history is an amalgamation of the propaganada from the victors throughout history.

I remember you saying that your country was occupied by the Bolsheviks at the time? Well, I don't defend them. It's not because I don't consider my self a socialist (a democratic socialist, to be accurate), but because I don't think Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, and their ilk, are all that great. But, given Hitler's ambitions, you're country wouldn't have remained independent for long.

I guess that just comes down to personal preference. I would have prefered Nazi puppet state to Soviet puppet state

As I said earlier, there are no good guys in war. Did you read the entirety of my post? Because, you probably should, before you start responding.

Of course i have read your post. You may say that "there are no good guys in war" but you dont seem to truly belive that, because you still preach the evil of the Axis over the Allies.

Whoa whoa whoa, hold on a minute. I've heard of this, and there's a great deal of historians that say Eisenhower's death camp was nothing but the product of conspiracy theory. There's PLENTY of evidence to suggest it didn't exist.

I dont recall where, but there was an article on this topic i read somewhere.
it also had testamonies from american soliders who witnessed it and were disgusted by their treatment of German prisioners. i could look for it if you like.

No, it wouldn't have. Even if Germany had officially declared war on all the people that were killed in the holocaust, it still would have been an act of genocide. War was declared in Rwanda, but does that make how those people were slaughtered okay?

The point of that statment was to see how you justified allied atrocities, not that i belive the declaration of war removes guilt.

At the end of the day, there is no actual distinction between opposing forces in warfare. However, all I'm saying is, you are seemingly denying the mass degradation of approximately 6 million people, and that's not okay.

This is far too big of a topic to get into here. the "Bottom line": i know the jew was treated quite badly, but this isn't really relevant to me, and not really a factor in forming my opinion of the Nazis... because i'm a Rus' man. not the jew.

 

[Arfonious]

It's sad that you can't really touch this subject without getting shot down for being a nazi sympathiser.
I personaly would love to play a game depicting WWII from a German perspective

I was thinking about this the other day. The Germans had cooler uniforms and awesome sounding words for just about everything.

No wonder, all German uniforms during WWII were designed by Hugo Boss

 

[DrunkOnEstus]

Massive snip

I fought for a long time about jumping in here, but I had to make a distinction. One does not have to be Jewish to find the deplorable treatment of Jewish people to be a horrible thing. I'm an American, and I frequently become disgusted about the treatment of the native American (Indian) people that led to our founding. I don't have to be Indian to sympathize with what they as a people went though, and our school textbooks even struggle to try and spin this point into a positive thing.

Also, Judaism is a religion, not a country or the members specifically of it (not counting Israel). There are Jews all over the world, just as there are Muslims all over the world and the word "Muslim" does not immediately imply "Arab". I understand that from your viewpoint it may be hard to see the other side of the fence, but do realize that it's not at all hard for many people to sympathize and care very deeply about something that happened to people outside of their religion, cultural heritage, country, or family tree.

OT: If this game were to be made outside of the RTS/Simulation genre, where more of a plot and narrative drive is required, you'd have to be very careful and essentially walk on eggshells during its creation. I'd have to think that game designers aren't yet capable of handling this maturely, and that video games as a medium haven't reached the point where the subject would be tackled maturely and tastefully. I would love to be proven wrong and see this growth though, don't get me wrong.

 

[el derpenburgo]

In Hearts of Iron the closest thing to a main campaign has always been the German 1936 scenarios, so check that out if you have the time. You lead essentially the Nazi state, which sounds like a total bummer, but you can always roleplay that someone assassinated Hitler and concentration camps were put an end to. But the real point is that you can relive the ball-numbing offensive operations of what was the best army in the world, from France to Russia. If you love looking at maps of famous battles or those cool strategic ones on Wikipedia then you'll be plenty motivated to get into it, it's probably Paradox's least difficult game to master besides Crusader Kings. I didn't have an appreciation for how big the Eastern Front was until:

Spoiler

The Germans have trapped 163 Soviet divisions, around 2,500,000 men. That's only about half their entire army, and slightly less than my entire combined force in France, Russia, and the Balkans. This is how my Barbarossa came out, I thought I basically won but it took me four more years until victory was realistically in sight. For context, it took me half a year to force French surrender and they only ever fielded 100 divisions in total with the UK.

Also, can't you drive any faster Klaus?


edit: started reading the wall-o-texts on this thread. I now understand why the Paradox forums don't let you talk about Nazi Germany at all
added shameless self plug

 

[maninahat]

snip

You've probably been told already, but the Silent Hunter u-boat simulator games are mostly from a Nazi perspective. No actual nazi propaganda or politics come up though - you're essentially torpedoing ships with Allied ensigns, and not ranting about Jews or the master race.

I agree it would be interesting to play from the perspective of a losing side with an attached reprehensible ideology. I don't know if you could get away with making the protagonist a nazi, but some kind of stand in culture in a fantastical setting could do the same job without causing offense. That's probably already been done - assuming the devs give the player enough credit to get the point.

As I said in my rant (which I re-read, sloppy due to fatigue, but still accurate) that's the Hollywood version, like most coverage of contreversial things on Wikipedia. People just aren't ready for the truth here, there are crazy numbers of holes in pretty much everything on wikipedia that contridicted what I said.

All of which comes down to the central point that people just aren't ready for a World War II game featuring Nazi protaganists like the game suggested.

Among other things you'll notice we blame the Russians for the one big Volkssturm massacre you mention. God forbid the US/UK did anything that horrible, that would contridict the Hollywood version, but on the other hand, well The Russians were the big bad guys after the Germans so we can point fingers at them.

Don't get me wrong, I'm actually not bashing the US, actually knowing a lot of the truth about WW II (when I was younger some of my older teachers had been there, and insisited on telling very differant versions from a lot of the "textbook" stuff to make sure the right lessons were learned), has influanced my overall attitudes about how wars are fought, and are a big part of why I call "BS" so often on "The War On Terror" and attempts to run an antiseptic war, when there is no such thing. "The biggest bastard wins, and then writes the history books" is pretty much the truth, so when I hear all the QQing about collateral damage, war crimes, and "not wanting to become the enemy by using evil tactics" I tend to roll my eyes and grumble about the idiots saying that crap for being why we haven't accomplished much. It's especially painful when you have some liberal who probably grew up in the 60s protesting 'Nam ranting about "good wars" and referaincing World War II like it was a comic book because of how we got to write the history books afterwards.

The US/Allies were the good guys, and did what had to be done, but it wasn't antiseptic, and not entirely black and white on any front. In theory you could do a game from the Nazi perspective pretty easily and make the Allies the bad guys in a limited scope campaign because we did worse than most of what we accused them of, which is how we won. The simple truth, in the sad world we live in a hero and a complete bastard are one in the same because you can't be one without being the other.

I think you've quoted the wrong person. I wasn't the one arguing with you. That said, now you've done it, I might as well pass comment on your post.

Yes, a story from a nazi perspective could be easily told, highlighting the negatives of allied activity whilst depicting the positive or brave actions of the Axis forces. We already have a number of movies that do that, such as Letters to Iwo Jima, Cross of Iron, Das Boot, Stalingrad etc.) and so it shouldn't be a problem to do it in a game.

It actually has nothing to do with people being unable to accept nazis as heroic and allies as antagonists - those movie examples show audiences already tolerate that sort of thing. The problem is that people don't accept games as a mature medium yet. When elderly war veterans hear that there is a game which makes them the villain and makes the nazis the "hero", they'll respond very negatively. As far as they're concerned, a game isn't on the same level as a movie in terms of maturity or artistic merit - it's a childish toy for people's amusement. They may even be right, considering the way in which games revel in carnage.

For a game to be accepted, it needs to find away to step around the stigma. That'll take careful writing and a fundamental change in video game conventions (perhaps by telling a war story which, for once, doesn't involve massacring waves of people). No one will be convinced that the medium is growing up if it still continues to invariably treat murder as a enjoyable pass time.

 

[Exocet]

As I said earlier, there are no good guys in war. Did you read the entirety of my post? Because, you probably should, before you start responding.

Of course i have read your post. You may say that "there are no good guys in war" but you dont seem to truly belive that, because you still preach the evil of the Axis over the Allies.

Well, it seems pretty damn justified considering one side straight-up murdered millions of people in fucking death camps, had entire torture squads, raped entire cities, brainwashed children into killing, and cannibalized what they thought were inferior races.
You can point out the other side did some pretty terrible things, veering wildly into the war crimes territory, but it still won't eclipse the actions of the first group.

There are no good guys in war, but there are some that are way worse than others.

Lastly, and this is actually horrifying to me, you said:

I could certianly understand this if you were one of the jew, but i feel like you are not.

in response to:

Yes, forgive me if I find the subjugation of 6 million people slightly upsetting.

So according to you, caring about the lives of millions isn't justified because they aren't of your race/religion/country?

I'm sorry, but are you insane and off your meds? There is no easy way to say this, but I'm pretty sure you are a psychopath.

 

[Daverson]

Off the top of my head, Red Orchestra and Iron Front both have a German perspective. I think there was a similar game with from the Finnish perspective. (The lesson here being that you can make Germans protagonists if the bad guys are the Russians =p )

The issue really comes from the whole shooter perspective, in action games the protagonist tends to be a pretty big hero, it's difficult to pull that off with the Reich without ending up a bit like this guy. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Skorzeny]

 

[Madbomber]

one thing people gotta remember is germany was the first country invaded by the nazi's not all the people wanted them. then they get in power start fear mongering and then rattling sabers next thing you know hes conscripting into the war and forcing kids in families to go to nazi education camps

evidenced in this link by Walt Disneys propaganda video back in the 40s and yes its true, a number of families were shot for not complying

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQqCeEG5hs0&bpctr=1351509509

btw sorry if it doesnt show up as a click link im not tech savvy

not to mention the problems he caused to his own people, like i said pulling men and children from families to fuel his army and then throwing them 3 different ways, i know in the end the french underground fighters, the european union and the americans as well as the russians, were aided in battle planning and tactics by the fact they were stretched thing but i cant help think of all the people who didnt want to fight for germany who knew their country was wrong,

the same way i view the people in russia who were shot for turning from battle and retreating

casualties are casualties, only way there would be no sympathy is if it was i dont know evil aliens that flat out tried to slaughter us all

GAME IDEAS,

the game could be about a conscipt being forced to fight and forced to kill, they can either go the decent way or (knowing the way directers etc go these days) for shock value show the aftermaths of the atrocities (personally id rather they didnt) and say have the character vomit and then have him try to defect and have to fight his way through his own people with a few others like him

or maybe have it so hes trying to make it out alive from battles and surrender or maybe like that movie with that horrible actor (cruise) hes in on the rebellion movement

alot of tasteful ways it can be done tbh i still dont see how wolfenstein was "seen to be glorifying nazi symbolism" i mean sure it had decorations all over the place but your plugging holes in their heads, if it was really going for them itd be other way around

 

[Stepan_RUS']

Well, it seems pretty damn justified considering one side straight-up murdered millions of people in fucking death camps, had entire torture squads, raped entire cities, brainwashed children into killing, and cannibalized what they thought were inferior races.
You can point out the other side did some pretty terrible things, veering wildly into the war crimes territory, but it still won't eclipse the actions of the first group.

There are no good guys in war, but there are some that are way worse than others.

I dont know where these outlandish accusations came from. My grandfather never ate anybody, tourtured anybody, raped anybody or put anybody in a death camp. neither did anybody he fought with. nobody i have talked to who lived in this time has ever said anything like that, quite the opposite. The only thing i have ever heard about the German soliders from these people is how kind and courteous they were. So i'm not going to pay any attention to this nonsense.

Lastly, and this is actually horrifying to me, you said:

I could certianly understand this if you were one of the jew, but i feel like you are not.

in response to:

Yes, forgive me if I find the subjugation of 6 million people slightly upsetting.

So according to you, caring about the lives of millions isn't justified because they aren't of your race/religion/country?

I'm sorry, but are you insane and off your meds? There is no easy way to say this, but I'm pretty sure you are a psychopath.

No. I dont understand that. i'm not sure what you mean by "meds" but How about, instead of name-calling like a young child, you justify your thinking. explain why this is evil intellectually, rather than emotionaly. Can you do that?
I am simply not bound by your christian slave morals.

"Remember. Natural law makes no false judgments. Its decisions are true and just, even when dreadful." -Ragnar Redbeard

 

[Dr Hammer]

I think such a game would be a great idea, but it would require a level of maturity amongst the general public (and anyone else that would come into contact with the game, I suppose) that I'm not sure exists.

Even if you find a message repulsive that should not stop you from acknowledging that such a message exists and even exploring it to see if there is anything of value to be salvaged within it.

 

[Mournful Crow]

if you took offense, don't.

This. I would make it my signature if such a thing existed on this site.

Anyway, it's an interesting thought. Though I predict outrage if such a thing were made.

Well of course, what do you expect? We still think we're the good guys for invading the wrong country after 9/11...

This is the country that still loses its shit over a terrorist attack over ten years ago with relatively minor casualties. I doubt we'll ever lose the butthurt over WW2. Not that WW2 was, like, a good thing, but come on guys. Let's at least ACKNOWLEDGE the enemy.

Amen to that!

 

[Mournful Crow]

I think such a game would be a great idea, but it would require a level of maturity amongst the general public (and anyone else that would come into contact with the game, I suppose) that I'm not sure exists.

Even if you find a message repulsive that should not stop you from acknowledging that such a message exists and even exploring it to see if there is anything of value to be salvaged within it.

Which is exactly why I still keep my bible safely tucked away in my attic... Underneath a lot of crap that I need to clean up...

 

[Mournful Crow]

Well, it seems pretty damn justified considering one side straight-up murdered millions of people in fucking death camps, had entire torture squads, raped entire cities, brainwashed children into killing, and cannibalized what they thought were inferior races.
You can point out the other side did some pretty terrible things, veering wildly into the war crimes territory, but it still won't eclipse the actions of the first group.

There are no good guys in war, but there are some that are way worse than others.

I dont know where these outlandish accusations came from. My grandfather never ate anybody, tourtured anybody, raped anybody or put anybody in a death camp. neither did anybody he fought with. nobody i have talked to who lived in this time has ever said anything like that, quite the opposite. The only thing i have ever heard about the German soliders from these people is how kind and courteous they were. So i'm not going to pay any attention to this nonsense.

Lastly, and this is actually horrifying to me, you said:

I could certianly understand this if you were one of the jew, but i feel like you are not.

in response to:

Yes, forgive me if I find the subjugation of 6 million people slightly upsetting.

So according to you, caring about the lives of millions isn't justified because they aren't of your race/religion/country?

I'm sorry, but are you insane and off your meds? There is no easy way to say this, but I'm pretty sure you are a psychopath.

No. I dont understand that. i'm not sure what you mean by "meds" but How about, instead of name-calling like a young child, you justify your thinking. explain why this is evil intellectually, rather than emotionaly. Can you do that?
I am simply not bound by your christian slave morals.

"Remember. Natural law makes no false judgments. Its decisions are true and just, even when dreadful." -Ragnar Redbeard

Wasn't there a saying (I think someone may have already posted it on this thread) that goes, "War is won by the biggest bastards"?... I find that this saying would fit nicely into this small smidgen within the thread...

 

[Geth Reich]

I've wanted a Axis view-point WW2 game for years and with the release of Spec Ops: The Line I feel game developers are ready to treat the subject maturely and intelligence: Eastern Front The Line anyone?

Not that it will happen of course and we'll just keep on getting the Hollywood treatment in our games.....

 

[MammothBlade]

Well, it seems pretty damn justified considering one side straight-up murdered millions of people in fucking death camps, had entire torture squads, raped entire cities, brainwashed children into killing, and cannibalized what they thought were inferior races.
You can point out the other side did some pretty terrible things, veering wildly into the war crimes territory, but it still won't eclipse the actions of the first group.

There are no good guys in war, but there are some that are way worse than others.

I'm sorry, but are you insane and off your meds? There is no easy way to say this, but I'm pretty sure you are a psychopath.

Now, before you go accusing him of being a psychopath, this guy is from Eastern Europe, and if you knew anything about the situation on the Eastern Front of WWII, you'd know that they were caught between Soviet and Nazi totalitarianism. A choice between two hells. Sometimes, collaborating with the SS was preferable to the alternative.

Please don't say something so f**king ignorant again.

 

[skywolfblue]

Many foreigners hate the Nazi's because it was fascist ideology that brought on hopefully the largest conflict in human history. We hate them for their ideology, for the slaughter of innocents, for the Blitz, for France, for Belgium, for Poland. We hate them for causing a rift in the world that has not yet healed and may never heal. We hate them because their entire ideology was based on science which has now been disproven, we hate them for what they did to Eugenics, we hate them for causing the deaths of millions, both directly and indirectly.

We hate them because our grandfathers fought against them and some of them died in that fight. We hate them because they demolished entire nations.

And most of all we hate them because they still exist, we hate them because their policies are not equal, we hate them because you cannot live in both a facist and a free state. We hate them because many of us would not exist under Nazi rule, we hate them because we have friends who would be destroyed.

You know what?

We hate them because they are so fucking easy to hate. Now, let me be clear that I have nothing whatsoever against your grandfather, it was a different time and I treat everyone I meet as my brother until proven otherwise. I have plenty of international friends and at some point our ancestors probably tried to kill each other. But Nazism, Nazi's and Fascist ideology is indefensible.

So whilst you might be happy that Germany "Liberated" Ukraine from the Communists, it is still inarguable that they did far more harm than good throughout the war.

Any man who defends their ideology is not a man I wish to meet.

I have to chime in and /second this. Nazism is pure poison.

 

[sawyer7as]

No good guys in war. LOL. Soviets and Nazis are the same thing. Also the end don't justify the means, and while it ties our hands A LOT in modern conflicts, if you can't stand by a code of honor, you really can't stand by anything.

 

[Exocet]

Well, it seems pretty damn justified considering one side straight-up murdered millions of people in fucking death camps, had entire torture squads, raped entire cities, brainwashed children into killing, and cannibalized what they thought were inferior races.
You can point out the other side did some pretty terrible things, veering wildly into the war crimes territory, but it still won't eclipse the actions of the first group.

There are no good guys in war, but there are some that are way worse than others.

I'm sorry, but are you insane and off your meds? There is no easy way to say this, but I'm pretty sure you are a psychopath.

Now, before you go accusing him of being a psychopath, this guy is from Eastern Europe, and if you knew anything about the situation on the Eastern Front of WWII, you'd know that they were caught between Soviet and Nazi totalitarianism. A choice between two hells. Sometimes, collaborating with the SS was preferable to the alternative.

Please don't say something so f**king ignorant again.

And if you read anything I wrote, I told him that because he couldn't fathom why a non-jewish person could feel bad for the jews that were deported.

And for your information, part of my family was in Poland during WWII, so yeah, I'm aware of the developments of that particular part of the world over the last century.

I also noticed you didn't even bother quoting the part of his post I was referring in my own post. Basically, go back and read again, you missed half of it.
So now I'll quote YOU:

Please don't say something so f**king ignorant again.

Learn to read please, it will save you any further embarrassment

 

[Cyrus Hanley]

OP:

I'd be interested in it, but it would have to be handled very carefully... So playing as a Nazi who is responsible for the deaths of Jews would probably be out. But like others have said, playing as a Nazi in Rommel's Afrika Corps would be viable.

The mission could end with Rommel speaking with you, his loyal and honorable soldier, and informing you of a little thing known as "operation Valkryie"...

I imagine afterwards there could be a DLC campaign where you successfully kill Hitler, Rommel gains enough of the Army's support to throw off the rest of the Nazi high command in a coup. He negotiates with all the allies (minus the Soviets, who continue to assault Germany) and convinces them to accept a peace treaty. The campaign would end with a badly battered and nearly broken Germany forcing back the Soviets in one huge "last stand" involving trench warfare and waves upon waves of soviet soldiers.

If you survive to the end, and manage to halt the Soviet advance, it could end with an alternate history epilogue in which the reds expansion stopped on the border of Poland. Rommel slowly began to rebuild a (badly fragmented) Germany, made what reparations he could to the Jews and other people targeted in the Holocaust, and so on...

Fuck DLC, make an entire game out of it!

 

[MammothBlade]

Well, it seems pretty damn justified considering one side straight-up murdered millions of people in fucking death camps, had entire torture squads, raped entire cities, brainwashed children into killing, and cannibalized what they thought were inferior races.
You can point out the other side did some pretty terrible things, veering wildly into the war crimes territory, but it still won't eclipse the actions of the first group.

There are no good guys in war, but there are some that are way worse than others.

I'm sorry, but are you insane and off your meds? There is no easy way to say this, but I'm pretty sure you are a psychopath.

Now, before you go accusing him of being a psychopath, this guy is from Eastern Europe, and if you knew anything about the situation on the Eastern Front of WWII, you'd know that they were caught between Soviet and Nazi totalitarianism. A choice between two hells. Sometimes, collaborating with the SS was preferable to the alternative.

Please don't say something so f**king ignorant again.

And if you read anything I wrote, I told him that because he couldn't fathom why a non-jewish person could feel bad for the jews that were deported.

And for your information, part of my family was in Poland during WWII, so yeah, I'm aware of the developments of that particular part of the world over the last century.

I also noticed you didn't even bother quoting the part of his post I was referring in my own post.

No, I wasn't omitting it at all. I was calling you out for your implicit dismissal of the Soviet war crimes:

veering wildly into the war crimes territory, but it still won't eclipse the actions of the first group.

There are no good guys in war, but there are some that are way worse than others.

People seem to have these sorts of double standards when it comes to Nazi and Soviet war crimes. The murder of 6 million jews can't be viewed on a pedestal in the wider context of WWII. Now that's not dismissing what happened, it was terrible in its own right, but it was by no means the sole atrocity. The soviets also carried out mass deportations in Poland, up to the number of around 1.5 million. I won't go into the finer details but some of these war crimes were truly horrific, enough to make the Nazis look like saints to some people. From the lens of many Eastern Europeans - Baltic, Ukrainian, Byelorussian, etc., the nazis were the lesser evil and the deportation of their Jewish population wasn't that much of a tragedy in comparison to the threat of the soviets. So yes, some people view the nazis or at least German soldiers in a more positive light without condoning nazi ideology, mainly because of their situation in WWII.