WW2 had two sides. Why do we never talk about the other one...

[Sevre]

Hollywood has a good amount of Jews living there, both past and present.
A good amount of "the opposite perspective" isn't portrayed in movies, historical films, war films, etc.
The Jews villain Germany. They also have this long-lasting belief that the world hates them. Unfortunately though, given the philosophy of their religious nature and a sense of self-catering it's no wonder they are often seen with such antipathy.
If a war film ever came out, being produced in Hollywood in American soil, the Jewish leaders would have a fit with the word "anti-semetic" because they believe their ancestry is more important than the human race as a whole.

They see themselves as the only people who died in the last Great War. Bottom Line.

No...I do not hate Jews, nor am I an anti-semite. But it disturbs me how greatly they care only about their own, refuse to respect the past, and move on and accept warfare as that. Warfare.

And can someone please, stop saying "The Germans were forced to...". They were defending their damn country regardless if they were the aggressor or not.

Not that I'm Jewish or anything, but when a religion and it's people is oppressed for centuries, and they finally achieve freedom, they're going to do whatever they can to consolidate that freedom and make sure no one attacks it again. It's the same case with Irish Nationalists here.

And not to antagonize the Germans; but they weren't defending their country at all. Unless you want to start throwing fallacies around you can't question that. Nazi history is incredibly complex and you should start reading it before you make such offensive claims.

 

[Count Igor]

Not quite sure how it's meant to be taught in your country, but it seems that it's the "We're always right" bullshit.
Killing that many civilians can't really be justified.
In fact, it breaches the "Just War" section of not killing the innocent civilians.
So yeah...

Anyway, here, at least in my county, we almost NEVER look at wars from our side.
We've spent the past 3 years (5 lessons a fortnight) looking at the World Wars from the Axis side.
And before that it was, again, looking at it from the enemies side.

It gets boring.

Oh, next year we're looking at Russia and all of its wars.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Whats your opinion on the whole thing?

How much do you hear about the persecution of the Saxons? Or the Roundheads? Or that Guy Fawkes was a Catholic trying to put the Church back in power?

Or the Smallpox blankets killing Native Americans? Or the US Internment camps for Asians?

Or Cambodia's butchering of intellectuals?

Or Russia's fight against Germany?

Or St. Patrick was English, St. George was Turkish and Thomas Jefferson was a hypocrite and a total segregationist?

Reading normal history is like trying to use Windows help to fix a iPhone. Read deeper.

(Even America breaking free of England's rule was passed by a tiny minority of the vote; the majority were too scared to take England on)

 

[Kevonovitch]

actually ww2 had 3 sides, 2.5 technically.

the allies, the axis, and russia. russia was actually on the own, and ONLY worked w/ the allies b/c the allies promised support and aid. thats it. and the fact hitler went "oh hai, i gotz a non agressian pact w/ u? l0lz fokk dat sheet!"

although tbh, i loved nazi germany, i HATED italy for being an impotent POS >=( but then again, italy was crap for fighting ever since b4 ww1 even. i always did love alot of stuff about russia and germany from the ww1 onward era.

 

[Aidinthel]

actually ww2 had 3 sides, 2.5 technically

You don't think that's a bit pedantic? Though it's true the Soviets were only with the Allies for the sake of convenience, they still fought the same enemies and attended the same meetings. As far as I'm concerned, that counts as being on a side.

 

[The Wooster]

From what ive heard Japan basically whitewashes quite alot of the negative areas and treats it as another war.
Germany does quite the opposite demonising just about everything to do with the war, although im not sure how verterans are treated i think its generally similar to other countries.

As for the nukes at the time it wasnt seen as much different to regular fire bombings of other cities at least until the aftereffects became more known

Most german students are knowledgable enough to know that german soldiers were quite distinct from the Nazis. A common answer I've heard is that German WW2 war veterans are often viewed in a similar manner to Vietnam war veterans in the states.

 

[The Funslinger]

I'm very lucky to have had a history teacher who used to protect children from racist assaults. Then,the next day, he might shield the same person he was protecting someone from. He's very impartial, and it transfers into his teaching. We learned that Japan was assisting the Nazis, and yes, they were nuked. Just because the Japanese Government allied with the Nazis didn't mean the Japanese populace as a whole had to be vaporized in a case of "wrong place, wrong time." Admittedly, something needed to be done, and that wasn't the fairest solution, though it was effective. It's not just right/wrong, it's kind of like shades of grey.

 

[mrF00bar]

I think the main reason why the nuke was dropped on Japan was because they wouldn't give up otherwise and it was the only way to get them to stop.

Americans vs Samurai, I would never expect that to go well. As for the Nukes I think they just wanted to test it on an actual target and not just a lonely piece of dessert.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

Well as many of have already said history is written by the victors. Also why would you want to put a human face on your enemy that just makes it harder to kill them. If you make them all out to be amoral savages that have no interests but their own and will kill you if you turn around and they eat kittens. If you can now convince eople this is ture in alll cases you have successfully established an enemy you can kill.

Just look at Muslims and Islam. Islam and its practises are vastly different from country to country. I don't know what it is like there now but I assume unless some new radical group came to power it is mostly the same, in Sudan there are something like 10 Supreme Court level judges that are female and the country's leader is also a woman. If people were readily told things like this(I won't say facts as I do myself have up to date info) it would humanise Islam and it wouldn't be the big bad demon that it is now.

 

[Angerwing]

snip

I don't usually read such large posts, but that was very well said. Thankyou.

OT: What this guy said is basically what I would've said, had I the articulation and inclination.

 

[Toriver]

I have seen firsthand what schools in Nagasaki teach kids about the bombings. I lived there for two years teaching English in elementary and junior high schools, and just moved to a different part of Japan back in August. Here's what I gathered from the assemblies and classes I've been to about it.

They basically teach them the truth about it, no more, no less. They explain what Japan did to spark the war, how it played out, and how Nagasaki ended up getting an atomic bomb dropped on it. They do very well to present both sides, as well as a more personal aspect of the story, focusing on average Japanese citizens at the time of the bombing and how everything they knew was utterly destroyed by the bomb, even if they themselves weren't killed. These presentations are sometimes given by atomic bomb survivors who tell their own personal stories. Never once did it ever seem to me like they villified or demonized the US for what they did, nor did they really lay on their own guilt for bringing it upon themselves too thick. Basically the message was that war is very destructive and we should always strive for peace in the world to prevent tragedies like this from happening again. Some schools I taught at would send peace cranes to Hiroshima or take them to the peace park in Nagasaki city. I always thought such presentations were quite well done.

EDIT: If you have any more questions about it, I would be happy to try to answer them as best I can.

 

[PeePantz]

Hollywood has a good amount of Jews living there, both past and present.
A good amount of "the opposite perspective" isn't portrayed in movies, historical films, war films, etc.
The Jews villain Germany. They also have this long-lasting belief that the world hates them. Unfortunately though, given the philosophy of their religious nature and a sense of self-catering it's no wonder they are often seen with such antipathy.
If a war film ever came out, being produced in Hollywood in American soil, the Jewish leaders would have a fit with the word "anti-semetic" because they believe their ancestry is more important than the human race as a whole.

They see themselves as the only people who died in the last Great War. Bottom Line.

No...I do not hate Jews, nor am I an anti-semite. But it disturbs me how greatly they care only about their own, refuse to respect the past, and move on and accept warfare as that. Warfare.

And can someone please, stop saying "The Germans were forced to...". They were defending their damn country regardless if they were the aggressor or not.

First, let me state that I come from Jews. At first, I was thinking, "okay, I can see what he's saying." As you continued, I quickly discovered that you are a bigot with an anti-Jew agenda.
It's a terrible habit to state opinions as fact.

-snip-

What the hell are you, internet's Gandalf? Great and very enjoyable posts! Thank you.

 

[Kevonovitch]

actually ww2 had 3 sides, 2.5 technically

You don't think that's a bit pedantic? Though it's true the Soviets were only with the Allies for the sake of convenience, they still fought the same enemies and attended the same meetings. As far as I'm concerned, that counts as being on a side.

considering the fact the allies pretty much DIDN'T give russia anything, they gave hardly anything at ALL, russia was on it's own pretty much, and still just barely beat germany back, i'd say that count's as there own side.

 

[Aidinthel]

considering the fact the allies pretty much DIDN'T give russia anything, they gave hardly anything at ALL, russia was on it's own pretty much, and still just barely beat germany back, i'd say that count's as there own side.

If that's the standard you want to use, then Japan counts as its own side too since they had pretty much no contact with Germany or Italy, so you'd have to call it four sides.

And I must disagree with your argument. Firstly, there was material support given to the Soviet Union by the Allies. The importance of this aid can be debated, but as a symbolic act of solidarity it was pretty important. Also, you're completely ignoring the effects of Hitler having to fight a two-front war. The Nazis could never throw their full resources to the eastern front because they had to defend against the threat from the west. Even though the Normandy invasion came much later, they still had to have the forces in place that whole time, plus the fighting in North Africa.

And that's without getting into how much Japan hated the USSR and would have turned towards the continent if they hadn't been busy in the Pacific. What if the Soviets had been forced to fight a two front war as well? They lost about 12 million soldiers as is. How much more could they have taken, even given (especially considering?) Stalin's absolute refusal to even consider withdrawal?

 

[cahtush]

we never talk about america being the bad guys ever becouse of americas massive ego that is twice the size of the universe

 

[Toriver]

Hollywood has a good amount of Jews living there, both past and present.
A good amount of "the opposite perspective" isn't portrayed in movies, historical films, war films, etc.
The Jews villain Germany. They also have this long-lasting belief that the world hates them. Unfortunately though, given the philosophy of their religious nature and a sense of self-catering it's no wonder they are often seen with such antipathy.
If a war film ever came out, being produced in Hollywood in American soil, the Jewish leaders would have a fit with the word "anti-semetic" because they believe their ancestry is more important than the human race as a whole.

They see themselves as the only people who died in the last Great War. Bottom Line.

No...I do not hate Jews, nor am I an anti-semite. But it disturbs me how greatly they care only about their own, refuse to respect the past, and move on and accept warfare as that. Warfare.

And can someone please, stop saying "The Germans were forced to...". They were defending their damn country regardless if they were the aggressor or not.

WAIT a minute, here. I don't think you quite understand the difference between WWII itself and the Holocaust. The Holocaust would have happened whether or not WWII took place or not. Hitler's obsessive hatred of the Jewish race was seperate from his ambitions to take over Europe. The seeds of the Holocaust were sown before Hitler began getting aggressive against his neighbors. If the Jews who were (relatively) lucky enough to end up in work camps instead of straight-up death camps weren't making munitions and other supplies for soldiers, they would have probably ended up making other things.

And the Holocaust is to date the largest genocide operation the world has ever known, and remembrance of it is a stark reminder to us never to let such a thing happen again. What they went through was absolutely horrible. Further, in the case of WWII, they were civilians, absolutely innocent of everything, and if Hitler didn't have such a racist, anti-Semitic agenda, maybe some of them would have also fought for Germany. There was no justifiable reason at all for Hitler to do what he did, and the Jewish people have no historical obligation at all to accept that anyone forget what happened to them, as it was one of the most heinous acts perpetrated against innocents by any ruler throughout history.

That said, I can see how sometimes this can get carried away into Jewish leaders getting upset at any attempts to humanize German soldiers fighting a battle completely unrelated to what was going on with the Jews. The extent of what was going on in the Holocaust wasn't even known to many on the Allied side until they started invading German territory in 1944 and seeing it firsthand. To put it bluntly, the only ones fighting in the war for whom the fate of the Jews was high on the agenda were the Nazi leaders, and that was a bad fate. While ordinary German soldiers were likely vaguely aware of what was going on (it was hard to ignore), killing the Allied soldier then killing Rosenblat the local kosher butcher wasn't first on their mind. They had families and homes like any other soldier on the battlefield, and the actions of their commanders shouldn't put a stain on their own lives and jobs keeping their families safe. But don't suggest that the average Jewish person or rabbi today wouldn't know that and understand that too.

Basically, don't link the two events (WWII and the Holocaust) when one would have likely happened independently of the other. I think the Jewish leaders would know that too and today wouldn't have too much of a problem portraying average German soldiers as human.

 

[Kurokami]

I was wondering today about a history essay question I got about the ethical standards when the decision to drop the nuke was made. I looked through my notes and my teachings and it tended to steer toward dropping the nukes as a good solution. This puzzled me and I actually argued the other way but that isnt what this thread is about. I wondered what they taught japanese students about Hiroshima and Nagaski. What in gods name do you say to those kids.

"Two cities were vaporised but we totally deserved it, you can't really be sad, we were the bad guys"
"Two cities were vaporised but we were actually in the right, they were the bad guys, now you can feel sorry for them"

I cant really see either of these being acceptable... I dont know what I'd say.

Hell I know sins of the father and such is a pretty poor way to look at things but in this case I have no idea how Germans and the other ex axis powers feel about the war or how they can talk about it without being in the wrong in some way, either not being able to feel pity or sadness for their fallen ancestors or take pride in anything they did (armed service or other wise) or seeming like they sympathised with the whole idea of the axis powers. It seems like catch 22 here, they can't really have an opinion that won't be viewed as horrific or will force them to see their family with a blackened past.

TLDR:

What are you taught about that era? How do you feel people should talk about the other side when teaching or in general conversation? Is it fair to dehumanize old enemies? How would you feel if you belonged to a nation once branded "enemy" and in the wrong regardless of peoples personal beliefs? Whats your opinion on the whole thing?

People should be taught "this what happened" not bad guys and good guys. Personally I view the bombings as a good thing, not because I approve of killing people, not because I think it was necessary to end the war, but because it brought about the concept of Mutually Assured Destruction, where I live we call that peace... For now.

Hollywood has a good amount of Jews living there, both past and present.
A good amount of "the opposite perspective" isn't portrayed in movies, historical films, war films, etc.
The Jews villain Germany. They also have this long-lasting belief that the world hates them. Unfortunately though, given the philosophy of their religious nature and a sense of self-catering it's no wonder they are often seen with such antipathy.
If a war film ever came out, being produced in Hollywood in American soil, the Jewish leaders would have a fit with the word "anti-semetic" because they believe their ancestry is more important than the human race as a whole.

They see themselves as the only people who died in the last Great War. Bottom Line.

No...I do not hate Jews, nor am I an anti-semite. But it disturbs me how greatly they care only about their own, refuse to respect the past, and move on and accept warfare as that. Warfare.

And can someone please, stop saying "The Germans were forced to...". They were defending their damn country regardless if they were the aggressor or not.

Considering you keep lumping all jews into an extremely negative stereotype you've got built up in your head is it so outrageous to think that you hate jews?

I got tackled walking on the street because I wore a Kipa one day and I'm not even religious. Is it so outrageous for me to assume that some people hate Jews? That's what most believe and rightfully so. Very little believe badly of non-Jews, perhaps they tend to trust Jewish people more so than others, but all things considered that's hardly a strange pair of shoes to find yourself in.

Don't assume you know how Jews think, it's really not that different from you...

Actually considering what you wrote, perhaps that's not a good example.

=]

 

[Danzaivar]

I was wondering today about a history essay question I got about the ethical standards when the decision to drop the nuke was made. I looked through my notes and my teachings and it tended to steer toward dropping the nukes as a good solution. This puzzled me and I actually argued the other way but that isnt what this thread is about. I wondered what they taught japanese students about Hiroshima and Nagaski. What in gods name do you say to those kids.

"Two cities were vaporised but we totally deserved it, you can't really be sad, we were the bad guys"
"Two cities were vaporised but we were actually in the right, they were the bad guys, now you can feel sorry for them"

I cant really see either of these being acceptable... I dont know what I'd say.

Hell I know sins of the father and such is a pretty poor way to look at things but in this case I have no idea how Germans and the other ex axis powers feel about the war or how they can talk about it without being in the wrong in some way, either not being able to feel pity or sadness for their fallen ancestors or take pride in anything they did (armed service or other wise) or seeming like they sympathised with the whole idea of the axis powers. It seems like catch 22 here, they can't really have an opinion that won't be viewed as horrific or will force them to see their family with a blackened past.

TLDR:

What are you taught about that era? How do you feel people should talk about the other side when teaching or in general conversation? Is it fair to dehumanize old enemies? How would you feel if you belonged to a nation once branded "enemy" and in the wrong regardless of peoples personal beliefs? Whats your opinion on the whole thing?

I'd wager it's taught the way us Brits learn about the British Empire and some of the atrocities commited: They're just given the cold facts about the situation and are reminded that the country was totally different back then.

So rather than :

"Two cities were vaporised but we totally deserved it, you can't really be sad, we were the bad guys"
"Two cities were vaporised but we were actually in the right, they were the bad guys, now you can feel sorry for them"

It'd be "Two cities were vaporised, these are the reasons why...". And just let the kids decide for themselves how to view it.

 

[Hiraeth]

From what I've heard from Japanese friends, they don't mention WW2 at all, really, in Japan, in schools. It's not taught. They don't bring it up. Japanese tourists have come to Australia and been totally shocked to learn that Japanese submarines were ever in that area. And Japanese war veterans don't discuss what happened with their families, or in public.

It's like a black ink spot on a white dress that nobody acknowledges, because it's more polite to say nothing.

How about, I don't know, the BOMBING OF DARWIN. Seriously the best part about this post is that you've failed to mention direct attacks on Australian shores in favour of talking about the submarines that entered Sydney Harbour, either because you don't know about them or they've slipped your mind. If it is just that you've forgotten, I'm sorry for jumping at you, but there's a huge amount of people who didn't even know. The reason? It was covered up and played down by the Australian government because they didn't want to scare people. It's still not really taught in southern schools today. I know Aussie students that have only heard about the bombings because of the film Australia, and I've met others who didn't see that, and thus still didn't know. The Japanese government isn't the only one that's been manipulating people's memory of history. I mean more than 200 people were killed in Japanese air raids during WWII, and there are people in Australia who just don't know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Darwin

 

[Timmey]

Two sides?

Pretty sure there is a whole many more than that.

Great contribution, there were two main 'sides' really, Allied and Axis powers.

OT: I think that the Americans dropping the bombs was an unavoidable action that was brought about to end the war as soon as possible. If they hadn't dropped them and instead decided to invade and fight on without them the death toll would have been huge on both sides. As horrid as it seems to merely make it a numbers game 200,000-250,000 is only minor compared to the millions that would have died from a full scale invasion and consequential land war.