Xbox Update Confounds Console Pirates

[Treblaine]

A feeble-minded cretin

Watch it!

should know that video games are computer programs. I never said that they weren't. What I did say was that "computer programs" as that term is used by Section 117 is not intended to include computer programs that are not essential to the basic operation of the computer. Even the authority you yourself are relying on for the mistaken assertion that back-up copying of video games is permissible admits that non-essential copyrighted material which has been downloaded to the computer's hard drive (e.g., music and films) is not the sort of copyrighted material to which Section 117 is addressed.

Isn't that for a judge to decide? You can't make a law and then say "Wait, I didn't mean THAT!"

What LEGAL rulings do you have, rather than legislative musings?

 

[Anton P. Nym]

The company is so supposed to provide free or low cost replacement media, and I've never heard a company NOT providing replacement media assuming proof of purchase like a sales receipt or registration.

What!?!? You mean if I send a scratched disc to Microsoft they will send me a brand spanking new one!?!

If you do that, mail a scratched disc to them, I guarantee you will never get a replacement. You'll be lucky if you even get a response.

LOL @ ur GoogleFail [http://support.xbox.com/en-gb/pages/xbox-360/troubleshoot/games/disc-replacement-program.aspx]. Xbox support has offered that service for over 3 years. Personally I think the shipping and handling fee is a bit steep, but it is there.

-- Steve

 

[JDKJ]

A feeble-minded cretin

Watch it!

should know that video games are computer programs. I never said that they weren't. What I did say was that "computer programs" as that term is used by Section 117 is not intended to include computer programs that are not essential to the basic operation of the computer. Even the authority you yourself are relying on for the mistaken assertion that back-up copying of video games is permissible admits that non-essential copyrighted material which has been downloaded to the computer's hard drive (e.g., music and films) is not the sort of copyrighted material to which Section 117 is addressed.

Isn't that for a judge to decide? You can't make a law and then say "Wait, I didn't mean THAT!"

What LEGAL rulings do you have, rather than legislative musings?

Take a gander at the actual text of Section 117 as a whole. Apply your common sense to that reading. If you come away under the impression that when it makes reference to "computer programs" it intends to include video games within the meaning of that term, then I'll be more than willing to make reasoned arguments as to why it doesn't. But I suspect that you will not conclude that it does capture video games within its ambit.

 

[A Pious Cultist]

It is in Denmark and most of Scandinavia if I remeber correctly. The same goes for movies and music as long as it is for backup purposes. So this move by M$ just sort of went against the law here.

Firstly, using the dollar sign in your name makes you sound like an asshole, as does using "When you assume you make an ass out of u and me". >

Secondly, do you want CD codes? Because that is what they'll do otherwise. If they let one person buy the game then burn the disc and then those burned discs will run the game on any system you'll bet your ass they'd lose sales heavily.
There is a difference between going after people who've made backups and passively blocking copied discs to thwart piracy.

 

[JDKJ]

I'm not a fan of piracy, but what about the people who were just using backups?

It's not legal to back up your discs. It says so right on the warranty that comes with the game. I don't have a game on me right now to write it here, but check the back of the instruction manual. It essentially says "Backing up your game isn't necessary so don't do it."

Bzzzt, wrong. Admittedly, as it falls under fair use it's what's known as an affirmative defense, kind of like justifiable homicide, but it's still legal.

It's not any fair use that I can identify under Section 107. What makes you think it's a fair use? If it's Joe Gamer making back-up copies of games just to be safe, then it's not for the purposes of criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, or research as provided for by Section 107. If it's not done for one of the purposes listed by Section 107, then it's not a fair use.

 

[cream]

Games are not that expensive. End of story.

Buy the games, guys. If you don't believe in trust, then rent them or borrow them from a friend or something. They usually have demos, too.

The demo for Force Unleashed 2 would have been no indication that you were paying $59.99 + tax for a game you'd finish in the same night you brought home.

What do Americans and Canadians pay for sales Tax? Wikipedia has a pretty cryptic article about it and it's not clear what is exempt.

Anyone know if you have to pay sales tax on games bought via Steam IN the USA?

I realise that in the UK games have to sell at £45 ($72) to equal the same amount as they sell for in USA, considering our 20% sales tax (actually a V.A.T) and the weak British pound. I remember when it was Two dollars to the pound, those were the days.

I live in Canada, and in the province of Ontario, our sales tax is 13%

 

[JDKJ]

Games are not that expensive. End of story.

Buy the games, guys. If you don't believe in trust, then rent them or borrow them from a friend or something. They usually have demos, too.

The demo for Force Unleashed 2 would have been no indication that you were paying $59.99 + tax for a game you'd finish in the same night you brought home.

What do Americans and Canadians pay for sales Tax? Wikipedia has a pretty cryptic article about it and it's not clear what is exempt.

Anyone know if you have to pay sales tax on games bought via Steam IN the USA?

I realise that in the UK games have to sell at £45 ($72) to equal the same amount as they sell for in USA, considering our 20% sales tax (actually a V.A.T) and the weak British pound. I remember when it was Two dollars to the pound, those were the days.

I live in Canada, and in the province of Ontario, our sales tax is 13%

But if you walked over into British Columbia, sales tax there would be 12%.

 

[WilliamRLBaker]

Games are not that expensive. End of story.

I spent two years in China. I owned a modded Xbox I bought in a store. I bought "bootleg" games for it. Hundreds of them. Each one cost me .53 cents a pop.

Then I came back to the states. And new games cost me 113 times more to buy. And the money I was making in China and the money I was making in the states, the same.

"Expensive" depends on your point of view.

Before any of you rally and cry "zomgz pirates = bad!", try living in a different world. See things from the other side.

Also, backing up a game, should not be criminal. Playing on a backup, should not be criminal. Banning people for actually cheating, sure. Banning people for trying to take care of such a sensitive DVD game? Come on...

The problem is this is a hobby, a past time it is not needful.
There is no excuse for stealing the money out of other peoples pockets to fuel your need for a hobby or past time because that is money they are using to support them selves.

Food, Water..etc stuff that is needed for life I can look past If you are so desperate you have to steal...But If you are so poor that you cannot afford a video game then get another a hobby go read a book there are libraries that give that stuff out for loan for free ya know...hell most libraries loan out dvds and computer games...
There is absolutely no excuse for having to steal something as a hobby you aren't going to die without it.

 

[feather240]

It's not legal to back up your discs. It says so right on the warranty that comes with the game. I don't have a game on me right now to write it here, but check the back of the instruction manual. It essentially says "Backing up your game isn't necessary so don't do it."

Isn't game copying for purposes of backup covered by fair use law? Also, see the other reply. If we really are only buying a license, then surely backup copies are necessary.

You are correct, for PC games.

 

[Xaryn Mar]

It is in Denmark and most of Scandinavia if I remeber correctly. The same goes for movies and music as long as it is for backup purposes. So this move by M$ just sort of went against the law here.

Firstly, using the dollar sign in your name makes you sound like an asshole, as does using "When you assume you make an ass out of u and me". >

Secondly, do you want CD codes? Because that is what they'll do otherwise. If they let one person buy the game then burn the disc and then those burned discs will run the game on any system you'll bet your ass they'd lose sales heavily.
There is a difference between going after people who've made backups and passively blocking copied discs to thwart piracy.

CD codes are not so bad. I have been used to them for a looong time. They were the norm in the 90's after all.
And with regard to your quip about m$: that is a very used way of shortening. It shows that m$ is only out for your money (which they are).
They might have become a bit better lately but I do not forget their behaviour in the 90's. They are the reason that very few games are made for any other OS than windows. I personally would have loved games for Linux.

 

[Jaded Scribe]

I know in my last move I lost a box full of older PC games, including my original copy of Star Craft, so it's easy to lose the real copy you purchased, if game companies are going to pull the "you don't buy the game, you buy the licence" bullshit they've got to back it up with a way to recover lost media.

I know in my last move I lost a box full of older PC games

I lost a box

I lost

I

I'm not following your logic here. Whether you own the game or the license, you are responsible for it. I can't walk into a bookstore and say "I lost my book. You need to give me a new one."

Why do you think that because you lost something, it's on them to replace it?

 

[Wintermoot]

FW update disables piracy no shit!

 

[Jaded Scribe]

It's not legal to back up your discs. It says so right on the warranty that comes with the game. I don't have a game on me right now to write it here, but check the back of the instruction manual. It essentially says "Backing up your game isn't necessary so don't do it."

Isn't game copying for purposes of backup covered by fair use law? Also, see the other reply. If we really are only buying a license, then surely backup copies are necessary.

The company is so supposed to provide free or low cost replacement media, and I've never heard a company NOT providing replacement media assuming proof of purchase like a sales receipt or registration. Always hang on to that stuff, doesn't take up space and can save so much effort later on. Make a folder called "game receipts" and throw it next to your taxes folder. You'll still have that shit in 30 years, guaranteed.

If you lose your windows disc, you can call Microsoft and have a new one sent to you for just the cost of shipping. "Pirates" just make up excuses to get free stuff.

Another way to keep your receipts: Get a new receipt for each game you purchase (if you buy more than one at a time, you can ask for extra copies of the receipt) and then fold it up and tape it inside the case behind the manual. That way you can put your hands on any game's receipt at any time.

 

[ryai458]

Good for you microsoft, dealing with pirates without screwing over paying costumers.

 

[Treblaine]

The company is so supposed to provide free or low cost replacement media, and I've never heard a company NOT providing replacement media assuming proof of purchase like a sales receipt or registration.

What!?!? You mean if I send a scratched disc to Microsoft they will send me a brand spanking new one!?!

If you do that, mail a scratched disc to them, I guarantee you will never get a replacement. You'll be lucky if you even get a response.

LOL @ ur GoogleFail [http://support.xbox.com/en-gb/pages/xbox-360/troubleshoot/games/disc-replacement-program.aspx]. Xbox support has offered that service for over 3 years. Personally I think the shipping and handling fee is a bit steep, but it is there.

-- Steve

"This programme applies only to games published by Microsoft and is subject to availability."

Sounds to me like a rock solid cop out to me.

"LOL @ ur GoogleFail"

Don't be a jerk.

 

[Treblaine]

Take a gander at the actual text of Section 117 as a whole. Apply your common sense to that reading. If you come away under the impression that when it makes reference to "computer programs" it intends to include video games within the meaning of that term, then I'll be more than willing to make reasoned arguments as to why it doesn't. But I suspect that you will not conclude that it does capture video games within its ambit.

But if video games aren't computer programs... then what are they?

 

[Dogstile]

I know in my last move I lost a box full of older PC games, including my original copy of Star Craft, so it's easy to lose the real copy you purchased, if game companies are going to pull the "you don't buy the game, you buy the licence" bullshit they've got to back it up with a way to recover lost media.

I know in my last move I lost a box full of older PC games

I lost a box

I lost

I

I'm not following your logic here. Whether you own the game or the license, you are responsible for it. I can't walk into a bookstore and say "I lost my book. You need to give me a new one."

Why do you think that because you lost something, it's on them to replace it?

Because they insist on games being a license. They've licenses the software to you and it costs just about nothing to redownload it. If you've brought the license and you can get it back with no cost to the company, what's wrong with downloading a new copy?

 

[RowdyRodimus]

Games are not that expensive. End of story.

Buy the games, guys. If you don't believe in trust, then rent them or borrow them from a friend or something. They usually have demos, too.

The demo for Force Unleashed 2 would have been no indication that you were paying $59.99 + tax for a game you'd finish in the same night you brought home.

What do Americans and Canadians pay for sales Tax? Wikipedia has a pretty cryptic article about it and it's not clear what is exempt.

Anyone know if you have to pay sales tax on games bought via Steam IN the USA?

I realise that in the UK games have to sell at £45 ($72) to equal the same amount as they sell for in USA, considering our 20% sales tax (actually a V.A.T) and the weak British pound. I remember when it was Two dollars to the pound, those were the days.

I live in Canada, and in the province of Ontario, our sales tax is 13%

In the States it varies not just from state to state but from city to city. Where I live sales tax is 9.25% but I can drive for 5 minutes either way and pay 7.35% or 10.75%. So when I have a big purchase I go to the 7.35% place otherwise I just stay in the spot I am. It might not sound like that's a lot, but when you figure that the median wage is $22,000 a year in the city I live in paying $60+9.25% sales tax is actually more for us than a place where the average wage is $50-75K a year.

 

[JDKJ]

I'm not a fan of piracy, but what about the people who were just using backups?

It's not legal to back up your discs. It says so right on the warranty that comes with the game. I don't have a game on me right now to write it here, but check the back of the instruction manual. It essentially says "Backing up your game isn't necessary so don't do it."

Bzzzt, wrong. Admittedly, as it falls under fair use it's what's known as an affirmative defense, kind of like justifiable homicide, but it's still legal.

It's not any fair use that I can identify under Section 107. What makes you think it's a fair use? If it's Joe Gamer making back-up copies of games just to be safe, then it's not for the purposes of criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, or research as provided for by Section 107. If it's not done for one of the purposes listed by Section 107, then it's not a fair use.

You do realize that fair use, before somebody codified parts of it into a law, was merely a bunch of judges saying that people have a CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to do X? So, just because it's not covered under Section 107 does not mean that it doesn't qualify as fair use.

The fact remains that Section 107 is a codification of the judicial decisions which constituted the doctrine of fair use and that any well-reasoned analysis need consider (a) the purposes listed by the statute and thereafter if needed (b) the four factors listed by the statute. Section 107 is the touchstone of any proper fair use analysis.

Can you point me to one unauthorized use of copyrighted material to which a claim of fair use was raised and recognized and which didn't fall neatly into one of the purposes listed by Section 107 and which didn't involve a resulting benefit to the public (as opposed to a purely private and personal benefit such as results from making back-up copy of video games for safety's sake)?

 

[Jaded Scribe]

I know in my last move I lost a box full of older PC games, including my original copy of Star Craft, so it's easy to lose the real copy you purchased, if game companies are going to pull the "you don't buy the game, you buy the licence" bullshit they've got to back it up with a way to recover lost media.

I know in my last move I lost a box full of older PC games

I lost a box

I lost

I

I'm not following your logic here. Whether you own the game or the license, you are responsible for it. I can't walk into a bookstore and say "I lost my book. You need to give me a new one."

Why do you think that because you lost something, it's on them to replace it?

Because they insist on games being a license. They've licenses the software to you and it costs just about nothing to redownload it. If you've brought the license and you can get it back with no cost to the company, what's wrong with downloading a new copy?

If you can redownload it legitimately, fine. My problem is this guy saying that companies HAVE to let you back it up in case you lose it. They don't have to do any such thing. And it seems that those that make these copies for piracy FAR exceed the number of people who back it up for legit reasons.

All these people quoting the Fair Use act also fail to understand that the law says that legally, making back ups is not a crime. Nowhere does it say that a company MUST let you make backups of their data.