Xcom - Enemy within... where do you draw the line as a player?

[Silverbeard]

I save scummed once on XCOM 2.
The mission in question was a 'capture the enemy VIP' operation and I had managed to get to the point where there was only that VIP and one ADVENT shieldbearer left on the map. Feeling rather cocky (Justifiably; I had just wiped a muton centurion and two snake ladies on the same turn!) I moved my last grenadier in position to flank the shieldbearer and, after taking a second to bask in the impending success, double-tapped the spacebar.
What happened next? My grenadier aggressively swings up his cannon, points it at the VIP I'm trying to take alive and unloads a barrage of alien alloys into her chest.
I was shocked and enraged. Turns out that going into the fire screen has the game automatically pick out the target that the selected soldier has the best chance to hit, which is not necessarily the one you want to hit. In this case, the enemy VIP was an easier target than the flanked shieldbearer and the game was quite happy to let my grenadier tear her to pieces. And then, as if to add insult to injury, my grenadier's hair trigger activated and gave him another shot!
I'll bet the shieldbearer laughed his ass off before I finished him.
So I was left with no VIP to capture and one bummed out grenadier. I would have rolled with it even so but I really needed that intel. So I reloaded and tried the mission again.

As for Enemy unknown/Within, I do believe I reloaded one interception battle. My jet was carrying laser cannons, which require the jet to close to a short range with the target before firing; essentially the alien ship gets a few 'free shots' on your interceptor before it can shoot back. Quite amazingly, the target in question (I forget the class; it was either a supply barge or an abductor) landed every single one of its shots and my interceptor went down in flames- over the skis of Canada, which was one the verge of panicking out of XCOM anyway. The loss of that interceptor sent them over the edge and there wasn't enough time or opportunity to stave off their departure from XCOM so I redid that interception.

 

[Xan Krieger]

I quit once when I was playing with soldiers named for me and my friends. A cute chick I like and consider a bigger sister got killed. That's when I gave up. Why? Ideally it would've been her ex that died, I have no interest in her (most of my female friends are lesbians so I've got no chance anyway). Since it was the one I love and whose fiance I kissed a year ago I just gave up.

 

[KaraFang]

Plasma bolts themselves phasing through walls isn't inexplicable no, but LOS detection in XCOM is screwy as hell. There are many times when a unit has no line of site what soever yet is still able to fire a shot, which is what the OP also spoke about, not just the plasma gun. It's immersion shattering and infuriating to be shot through 4 layers of concrete with no LOS, the Aliens may have superior weaponry but they still use normal eyes to see, and it is still unrealistic for it to happen

The problem I have is that you have the same guns later in the game with research, and YOU cannot fire through stuff that way. So, yeah it was a glitch (mainly due to LOS I agree) but caused me to lose a soldier, so I reloaded the save.

The beacon? Yeah, I've no idea why the OP is complaining about that.

1/ It's a massive world immersion breaking issue. "We found the source of an infection!" says Bradley. "Now, the WHOLE village needs to be nuked from existance. Run over there and turn on the commercial grade beacon so army units can use this less precise and dodgy beacon (that as its above the aliens they can destroy with a few hits) instead of retreating while one of the pilots from the Ranger pops an Xcxom beacon into barrel or something to hide it and we can leave." I sat back with my mouth open with that one for at least ten seconds and then was "Okay, this'll be a reload mission then... it's going to be annoying."

2/ I never got Xcom's attempts to destroy the "safe planning" mission idea. It's the whole point of the game- plan carefully, don't LET yourself get into a situation where it's a dice roll you survive or not. Popping a 8 turn limit into the mission with tons of crap running at you as well was really daft. They could have come up with a better mission basis than for if they wanted difficulty spikes, I felt the sudden "turn alert" + deadly foe swarm was a bit cheap.

 

[Danbo Jambo]

I only save scum on very, very, very rare occasions. Usually when there's a bug, or something blindingly impossible happens, such as 3 soldiers with 95% hit chance all missing etc.

I don't mind losing soldiers, it's part of the game. I just don't like feeling cheated.

 

[Laughing Man]

I called my play through of Xcom 2 on hard mode after a few very specific events.

1). Six attempts all with 80% or above hit chances taken at different points at different enemies, all of which missed, sorry no.
2). The 85% hit chance with a sword (slash attack) that resulted in not only no hit but a counter that instant killed my guy.
3). Reverse hit percentage chances by this I mean I have a 25% hit chance, which shockingly I miss, only for the Alien to then take his turn and not only get a hit but a critical hit.
4). Stun lancers are bullshit beyond bullshit, they basically get a free kill by that I mean doesn;t matter if they can actually hit you with enough damage to knock your HP down to zero if they get a strangely high chance of hitting your guy with an unconscious debuff that basically takes them out for the rest of the mission. Not sure what the chance of it taking effect but I had four of them do this in a row.
5). The final straw was the alien spawn in factor, I was doing a mission on a three level building, I had most of the my guys on the ground, a sniper on the second providing overwatch. I have to rescue a prisoner then extract, the level runs from entry on the left to exit on the right. I've taken out my second pod of aliens, move my ground guys to the right to active and remove him, I do this with my second of five guys. I move my last guys towards the right and finally move my sniper on the second floor to the right only for a third pod of aliens to spawn in on the third tier literally 3 squares away from where my sniper had been stationed for the last two turns.

I could have save scummed but that this point I thought fuck this, where is the fucking strategy when guys are just appearing literally out of thin air inches from your face, or you're standing right next to a guy and you only have an 85% hit chance, the guys a fucking Muton he's the size of a small bus you'd have to be pissed, blind, standing on your head while being beaten about the head by Mike Tyson to have anything less than 98%.

 

[DoPo]

4). Stun lancers are bullshit beyond bullshit, they basically get a free kill by that I mean doesn;t matter if they can actually hit you with enough damage to knock your HP down to zero if they get a strangely high chance of hitting your guy with an unconscious debuff that basically takes them out for the rest of the mission. Not sure what the chance of it taking effect but I had four of them do this in a row.

1. Stun lancers are trivial if you flashbang them. They literally cannot melee at that pont and would only shoot you.
2. Nowadays I don't even much care about stun lancers - one fire/acid/poison grenade is enough to completely kill them along with a buddy of theirs or two (or at least severely reduces the buddies' health). Grenadiers just wreck everything - with two of them, there are enough grenades for each pod encountered. With Heavy Ordnance (I take it for each grenadier), they've got approximately 1.5 explosives per pod.
3. If you get attacked often enough, then get a medic. Revival Protocol is available early and it removes unconscious.

only for a third pod of aliens to spawn

Alien pods do not "spawn" - they are on the map at all points and patrol. Aside from reinforcements, but it's rather easy to see those with the giant glowing marker that appears on the map. Moreover, you should have been anticipating that third pod. There are always at least three pods on a mission some times four (disregarding reinforcements) but if you didn't see an alien pod, it doesn't stop existing.

where is the fucking strategy [...] or you're standing right next to a guy and you only have an 85% hit chance, the guys a fucking Muton he's the size of a small bus you'd have to be pissed, blind, standing on your head while being beaten about the head by Mike Tyson to have anything less than 98%.

The Mutons are described as "surprisingly agile" which is reflected in the low chance to hit them. Moreover, the strategy there should have been you using a shotgun - that has more accuracy, more critical chance and is not vulnerable to counter attacks. Furthermore, you could have used holo targetting or grenades, or flashbangs, or a variety of other ways to deal with the muton. This is where the strategy is - you have a lot of ways to deal with them, you chose one of the most risky ones. The choices were there, the game didn't deliberately make you use an ineffective tactic.

 

[Laughing Man]

The Mutons are described as "surprisingly agile" which is reflected in the low chance to hit them.

Blah blah blah, I didn't ask for a break down in strategy the question was at what point did I call it a day with the game and the events I listed above where some of them, it had nothing to do with alternative strategies or weather I had chosen the right one, PS by the way PSI-OP mind control beats just about every strategy you listed above, actually it does beat every strategy you listed.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Blah blah blah, I didn't ask for a break down in strategy...

...where is the fucking strategy...

You literally asked where the strategy is.

Now I hate doing this, but...there are four difficulty levels in the game for a reason. My friend's 10 year old daughter successfully plays the game on easy, so there should be something for everyone. Beaglerush pulled off Legendary Ironman with zero casualties and zero failed missions. As it has always been, XCOM is a game about risk mitigation. If you're constantly dying due to "bad luck", it's because you're playing badly. You can "blah blah blah" that reality all you want, but that's the fact of it.

None of that means you have to like it, but there's often this kind of fundamental misunderstand with risk mitigation games when it comes to players who have no idea how to mitigate risk and blame the game for their own shortcomings. If I have lousy reflexes and perform poorly at a twitch game, who is to blame? Me, for my reflexes, or the game for being what it is?

 

[BarryMcCociner]

Fuck it, ride the train till it crashes. Even if I wanted to reload a save I'm far too lazy.

I'll tell you where I REALLY draw the line as a player. If I ask a soldier to shoot an enemy four steps ahead of them, and they line up a nice shot, then they shift their gun at least 90 degrees to the right before firing, causing themselves to miss I will make NO ATTEMPT to save that soldier's life. They had a decent run, but if someone's that stupid you just gotta let natural selection take its course.

 

[DoPo]

The Mutons are described as "surprisingly agile" which is reflected in the low chance to hit them.

Blah blah blah, I didn't ask for a break down in strategy

Yes you did.

the question was at what point did I call it a day with the game

No, that is not the question. The question at which point would your personally think you need to reload because you didn't like the results, not "when did you quit the game".

and the events I listed above where some of them, it had nothing to do with alternative strategies or weather I had chosen the right one

Your complaints have everythig to do with alternative strategies. All of them, each one, is mitigated or negated by having the right plan. Which also answers your question of where the strategy is - that's the strategy - choosing the right tactics. That's how you would have dealt with each one of the situations.

PS by the way PSI-OP mind control beats just about every strategy you listed above, actually it does beat every strategy you listed.

Well...not exactly.

First of all, you have to wait for quite a while for a psi op to be trained. At the same time, flashbangs are available right from the start. It's literally impossible to even have psi ops by the time you meet lancers, much less have them trained in Dominate.

Second, you can only dominate once in a mission. You should have 100% chance to mind control most aliens...but the problem is hat those usually aren't the liens you want. You should be going after Gatekeepers, for example and then dominate an fail.

Yes, it's really powerful thing to mind control a gatekeeper, but it's not a plan that always succeeds. Hence why you need a range of plans to back you up in case you fail.

Psi ops are one item in your toolbox. You should be bringing the entire thing to missions.

 

[Danbo Jambo]

I called my play through of Xcom 2 on hard mode after a few very specific events.

1). Six attempts all with 80% or above hit chances taken at different points at different enemies, all of which missed, sorry no.
2). The 85% hit chance with a sword (slash attack) that resulted in not only no hit but a counter that instant killed my guy.
3). Reverse hit percentage chances by this I mean I have a 25% hit chance, which shockingly I miss, only for the Alien to then take his turn and not only get a hit but a critical hit.
4). Stun lancers are bullshit beyond bullshit, they basically get a free kill by that I mean doesn;t matter if they can actually hit you with enough damage to knock your HP down to zero if they get a strangely high chance of hitting your guy with an unconscious debuff that basically takes them out for the rest of the mission. Not sure what the chance of it taking effect but I had four of them do this in a row.
5). The final straw was the alien spawn in factor, I was doing a mission on a three level building, I had most of the my guys on the ground, a sniper on the second providing overwatch. I have to rescue a prisoner then extract, the level runs from entry on the left to exit on the right. I've taken out my second pod of aliens, move my ground guys to the right to active and remove him, I do this with my second of five guys. I move my last guys towards the right and finally move my sniper on the second floor to the right only for a third pod of aliens to spawn in on the third tier literally 3 squares away from where my sniper had been stationed for the last two turns.

I could have save scummed but that this point I thought fuck this, where is the fucking strategy when guys are just appearing literally out of thin air inches from your face, or you're standing right next to a guy and you only have an 85% hit chance, the guys a fucking Muton he's the size of a small bus you'd have to be pissed, blind, standing on your head while being beaten about the head by Mike Tyson to have anything less than 98%.

I think a lot, but not all, of that is fair.

The main thing is that feeling of being cheated. So long as the game avoids that then I think most people are cool with losing soldiers or missions.

The breaking point comes where the absolute impossible happens, and when it happens at an absolutely critical time too. 6 attmpts above 80% all missing is the perfect example. Technically you're obviously talking hitting with 4.8 of those chances, but it's a game and needs some random elements to keep it interesting, so in my mind the actual sway should be somewhere between 2 & 6. But at minimum 2 soliders should hit from that situation, when 0 do you just feel like you've been utterly skanked, and this creates a feeling of pointlessness to your actions.

 

[Laughing Man]

You literally asked where the strategy is.

Yes I did, it was really meant as a rhetorical question so I'll explain the circumstances a little more.

As I said moving left to right across the map and had just killed my second pod of bad guys. I fully expected another pod to appear to my right between me and the extraction zone. I had my guy with max view at the front of my squad move to his max range the idea being to show up the pod and leave my remaining squad clear to move up half turn and then fire on the second half of their turn, however no pod, okay still a bit to go to the evac, maybe on the next turn, so I moved all of my guys to the right with my sniper moving last because well sniper they always hang back to cover the field and only when I move my last guy, the sniper, does this third pod suddenly appear, BEHIND my guys and, in a location that my sniper had or should have uncovered two moves earlier. So again a very strange set of circumstances, having already played through the game once on Normal I had never encountered a pod reveal behind my characters before. I had obviously used strategy and one that had worked but the game pulled an utter blinder and something I had never seen before so yeah, rhetorical and somewhat pissed off where is the strategy for a circumstance that I have NEVER seen happen before in the game question? It was not, and let me be clear a question designed to ask please give me alternatives to every little pissy thing that irks me about this game.

Now I hate doing this, but...there are four difficulty levels in the game for a reason. My friend's 10 year old daughter successfully plays the game on easy, so there should be something for everyone.

Yup mine would appear to be normal.

That's how you would have dealt with each one of the situations.

No that's how YOU would have dealt with them

 

[DoPo]

That's how you would have dealt with each one of the situations.

No that's how YOU would have dealt with them

Let me rephrase that, in that case - had you used the correct tactics, you would have dealt with those situations. It should be clear why I said that - as you've seen yourself choosing the wrong plans results in you complaining that the game is unfair and doesn't allow you to to strategise.

 

[Laughing Man]

Let me rephrase that, in that case - had you used the correct tactics

So YOUR tactics are the CORRECT tactics? according to who? Isn't the very nature of the game that you chose the tactics you think will work in any given situation with no one tactic being the correct one because the very nature of the game means their is no ONE correct tactic.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

So YOUR tactics are the CORRECT tactics? according to who? Isn't the very nature of the game that you chose the tactics you think will work in any given situation with no one tactic being the correct one because the very nature of the game means their is no ONE correct tactic.

According to people who are finishing the game on Commander/Legendary difficulty with flawless mission ratings. If you want to debate the nature of "games" and whether or not XCOM should be a sandbox where everything is equally viable, that's fine, but it's kind of a different topic. If you want to rail at the strategy for being substandard, actually demonstrating a working knowledge of what it is constitutes a good jumping off point.

Once again, XCOM is a risk mitigation game. If you're getting hosed by "random events" all the time, you're playing poorly. It's really that simple.

 

[DoPo]

Let me rephrase that, in that case - had you used the correct tactics

So YOUR tactics are the CORRECT tactics? according to who?

Did you or did you not complain about a bunch of situations? Did I or did I not say they are preventable?

Besides my tactics? Did you even read what I posted? I said that there are a variety of tactics and you have to choose as appropriate.

Isn't the very nature of the game that you chose the tactics you think will work in any given situation with no one tactic being the correct one because the very nature of the game means their is no ONE correct tactic.

Your complaints have everythig to do with alternative strategies. All of them, each one, is mitigated or negated by having the right plan. Which also answers your question of where the strategy is - that's the strategy - choosing the right tactics. That's how you would have dealt with each one of the situations.

Geez, yeah - tell me more about how my incredible tactic of "go with a plan that is right for the situation" is somehow inferior to your "there is a multitude of tactics you have to choose from". Do lecture me more by rephrasing on the exact same thing I said two posts ago. Oh, and make it sounds as if I've said something that I totally haven't. Please, go ahead.

Let's examine what I first replied, shall we - you complained about lancers, I proposed three ways to deal with them. You complained about an alien pod "spawning" to which I didn't suggest a tactic as much as explaining that it shouldn't have come as a surprise and you should have been prepared. You complained about mutons, to which I suggested four alternative ways to deal with them. Let's remember that you got wrecked by each of these and I merely pointed out that multiple different tactics would have prevented that. So, yes - "my tactics" are superior. Determined by the fact that you lost. I don't see how your plans were in any way better than not winning.

 

[happyninja42]

I reload a lot with the XCOM games. I get frustrated with it pretty easily when a cascade series of "you've got to be kidding me!"s happen in just the right order so that nothing I tried to accomplish works, but everything the aliens do goes off without a hitch. So I reload those. I enjoy the games a lot though, the tactical aspect of them is enjoyable, if frustrating at times.

 

[Laughing Man]

Did you or did you not complain about a bunch of situations? Did I or did I not say they are preventable?

With no context, stun lancers, 3 drop in at once located at different points do I stick with your bullshit stun nade them or do I throw down a mimic nade, your 'tactic' requires three separate moves and mitigates one type of attack on each enemy, mine requires 1 move and mitigates all attacks as long as the mimic is on the field.

I was complaining about some very specific points, for example the stun lancer and one certain debuff chance percentage, I was not AT ANY POINT looking for hints and tips on how to over come or mitigate those effects, I am aware that they can be mitigated and over come and the fact that you are arrogant enough to believe that your strategies are

yes - "my tactics" are superior

without having the context or ANY of the actual battle field tactical information is frankly stunning.

Now jog on mate I am bored of listening to your 'superior' inferior tactics.

According to people who are finishing the game on Commander/Legendary difficulty with flawless mission ratings. If you want to debate the nature of "games" and whether or not XCOM should be a sandbox where everything is equally viable

Not not equally viable but it would be nice if the actual hit chance was calculated on the fly, if it says 90% hit chance and I reload 100 times and do the exact same thing every time it would be nice if 90 of those hit and 10 missed but because the game generates the seed on load it means if I miss first time and then load and do the same thing 100 times over it will miss every single time.

It's a weird situation, in the real world if someone told you you had a 90% hit chance you would way up the shot and then take it with the outcome being determined there and then, Xcom tries to give that impression but the concept that the outcome has been determined before you even take the shot actually irks me, the idea that you are making decisions based on the facts given to you but the outcome was determined before you even decided what action to take always plays at the back of my mind when playing.

If the game calculated the hit using the percentage and some other variances on the fly and showed it happening, on screen, I dunno how say some sort of number scroller showing the fore and against hit weighed alongside factors such as location, weapon, enemy, defensive, offensive bonus, etc then I would be far less likely to save scum if a 90% hit chance missed, actually seeing why it missed as it happens would be much better than the 90% chance but it's already been determined that you miss situation the game uses now.

Once again, XCOM is a risk mitigation game. If you're getting hosed by "random events" all the time, you're playing poorly. It's really that simple.

Surely most events in the game are random? Anyway Yeah I would agree with you but I would add that the game, as it calculates shot and hit percentages is not just about mitigating risk, I mean how do you mitigate a 95% hit chance that then misses because it was determine to miss before you even took the shot? It is about making the most out of the moves and tactics that you can employ that do not require the RNG, use of nades and the very rare 100% hit chance shots.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Not not equally viable but it would be nice if the actual hit chance was calculated on the fly, if it says 90% hit chance and I reload 100 times and do the exact same thing every time it would be nice if 90 of those hit and 10 missed but because the game generates the seed on load it means if I miss first time and then load and do the same thing 100 times over it will miss every single time.

Simply reloading the seed until you got a desired result would not result in a "better strategy game". It is effectively cheating. If your only wish is to "win the game" by any means necessary, that can be accomplished with a few simple .ini tweaks, therefore saving yourself a lot of relentless reloading.

As discussed earlier in the thread, even with a fixed seed it's pretty easy to manipulate it through save/reload cycles if you're so inclined. Again, this is functionally cheating, but it at least requires some creativity.

It's a weird situation, in the real world if someone told you you had a 90% hit chance you would way up the shot and then take it with the outcome being determined there and then, Xcom tries to give that impression but the concept that the outcome has been determined before you even take the shot actually irks me, the idea that you are making decisions based on the facts given to you but the outcome was determined before you even decided what action to take always plays at the back of my mind when playing.

It's not really "weird" though. Humans don't deal with "random" very well at all. It frustrates and confounds them. They feel that a 90% shot should be a 100% shot, and shout "bullshit!" when it misses ~10% of the time. I know this because I do it too. These same complaints are brought up in Blood Bowl, a game where the rolls have been parsed over thousands of games to show definitively that the RNG is not "cheating". Yet players persist to this day with claims that it is. Whether the seed was generated before or after the action, the psychological effect on the player is the same.

Surely most events in the game are random? Anyway Yeah I would agree with you but I would add that the game, as it calculates shot and hit percentages is not just about mitigating risk, I mean how do you mitigate a 95% hit chance that then misses because it was determine to miss before you even took the shot? It is about making the most out of the moves and tactics that you can employ that do not require the RNG, use of nades and the very rare 100% hit chance shots.

By playing defensively, taking high percentage shots, and forcing your opponent to take low percentage shots (or ideally, not allowing your opponent to take shots at all) you dramatically minimize or even remove the effect "randomness" has on your game. It's not by accident that the best XCOM players run through entire campaigns without a single lost soldier. My first campaign, on Commander (with saving) ended with 75%+ flawless missions and zero soldiers lost. The second, Commander Ironman with +1 aliens per pod, finished ~50% flawless with a single dead soldier, lost to an untimely panic that saw him run into an overwatch crit. That was through 50+ missions. Almost half of those missions ended with none of my soldiers *ever even being fired on*. And I'm far from an XCOM savant. If anything, I'd argue the current incarnation of the game is far too easy, although it does share EU's problem of an inverted difficulty curve.

 

[JamesStone]

Let me rephrase that, in that case - had you used the correct tactics

So YOUR tactics are the CORRECT tactics? according to who? Isn't the very nature of the game that you chose the tactics you think will work in any given situation with no one tactic being the correct one because the very nature of the game means their is no ONE correct tactic.

Yes it is, and you chose wrong. His tactics are right, other tactics are right, yours are simply wrong, given the fact that you failed, constantly and consistently apparently, by what you've told us, so it's pretty clear your tactics for this situation are wrong.

Other people, playing different from each other, successfully aced the game. Maybe you're the one with the problem, not the game.