You Are Not An Artist
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"if you are an artist, you must maintain a measure of artistic integrity. This is pretty obvious. Yet, we have to assume that, should you ever be willing to compromise your artistic integrity, this would in turn render you no longer an artist."
Nope. Your notions of "Artistic Integrity" have nothing to do with whether or not a person is an artist.
Art has nothing to do with answering the question of "why" either, and it is absurd to say that a programmer has no say in the "why" as well.
Art has to do with the expression of emotion, or evoking emotion, that's it. Thus any person which does so through a medium is an artist to some degree.
Nope. Your notions of "Artistic Integrity" have nothing to do with whether or not a person is an artist.
Art has nothing to do with answering the question of "why" either, and it is absurd to say that a programmer has no say in the "why" as well.
Art has to do with the expression of emotion, or evoking emotion, that's it. Thus any person which does so through a medium is an artist to some degree.
Jesus Criminy Christmas Mary n' Joseph n' Jesus n' JosephJesus.
Programmers can TOO be considered artists. An artist is limited by the canvas they work on. Saying that someone who writes code CAN'T be an artist because their medium doesn't allow for this or that is stupid and self defeating. That's like saying a painter isn't a real artist because they can't use their acrylics and watercolor paints to chisel the likeness of George Washington out of a block of clay.
Programmers CAN be artists, their canvas is the computer and their tools are compilers and keyboards.
Programmers can TOO be considered artists. An artist is limited by the canvas they work on. Saying that someone who writes code CAN'T be an artist because their medium doesn't allow for this or that is stupid and self defeating. That's like saying a painter isn't a real artist because they can't use their acrylics and watercolor paints to chisel the likeness of George Washington out of a block of clay.
Programmers CAN be artists, their canvas is the computer and their tools are compilers and keyboards.
I must say, it comes across as rather arrogant of you to simply declare absolute standards for who is and is not an artist. Why do you get to decide? Furthermore, as many others have said, the idea that a person is either a programmer or an artist is a tad absurd. It is quite possible to be both.
Personally, I think we should stop arguing about labels. We should let people who make games/films/books/whatevers get on with it, whether we call them artists or something entirely different.
Personally, I think we should stop arguing about labels. We should let people who make games/films/books/whatevers get on with it, whether we call them artists or something entirely different.
When I see for example a beautiful and lush jungle in Uncharted, that's art and everyone who contributed to that scene is an artist. Why would programming a 3d scene, animating it, adding textures, lighting, shaders, etc. be in any way less artistic than drawing that scene on paper? I think it's the fact that they're writing code/using programs instead of ye olde paint brush on ye olde paper that makes it feel less artistic, but then again books are also just written "code" and much of today's music is done with computer programs.
I think game creators can have artistic integrity just as well as authors, film directors and whoever else inhabits the broad spectrum of artists. You mentioned not killing off Tali as an example, but I don't see how this is supposed to reassert the point you're trying to make since it could be said about any similar event in movies, TV shows, book series, comics... And the other arguments aren't related to games only either.
I think game creators can have artistic integrity just as well as authors, film directors and whoever else inhabits the broad spectrum of artists. You mentioned not killing off Tali as an example, but I don't see how this is supposed to reassert the point you're trying to make since it could be said about any similar event in movies, TV shows, book series, comics... And the other arguments aren't related to games only either.
Wow.
1. The sheer intellectual level (or lack there of)
of chuckdm for trying to define art in that way.
2. If you do not concider ME3 art, don't consider Star Wars, Shrek, Toy Story, Rocky etc. art.
3. If you think doing something for money and not "just for the sake of art" is not art
then you REALLY don't know anything about artist's lives.
4. If you say painting textures (silent hill 1 for instance)
is not an art, you are just.....wow.
5. If you think it is not art, you are right. It is not art TO YOU. Your loss.
Period.
1. The sheer intellectual level (or lack there of)
of chuckdm for trying to define art in that way.
2. If you do not concider ME3 art, don't consider Star Wars, Shrek, Toy Story, Rocky etc. art.
3. If you think doing something for money and not "just for the sake of art" is not art
then you REALLY don't know anything about artist's lives.
4. If you say painting textures (silent hill 1 for instance)
is not an art, you are just.....wow.
5. If you think it is not art, you are right. It is not art TO YOU. Your loss.
Period.
Here are some examples of just how much work they put into making Shepard look as human as possible in his movement. Be forewarned these are some really deep emotional videos, you might cry.
I'm sorry, but I...can't just...give a damn about it. And now, I'm...talking like...William Shatner.DoPo said:
Yes, an artist really does care how. Ask any animator, and they'll tell you they care how. They care a whole hell of a lot. The 'how' plays into just about everything. Using your walk example; in the basic sense, you do care how you're character is going to walk. By that I mean the character rig and the keys. With your character's personality, you care how. How would your character handle an obstacle in his/her path? How would his/her foot rise/fall? How would your character run? How would your character duck? How would the rest of your character's body react to the movements? How would your character's clothing/armor/accessories move?chuckdm said:
There's a great deal of 'how's' for an artist.
Feels like an argument for entirely different game, really.
The thing is that ME built it's reputation entirely on player agency. When one does that in a game, they sacrifice control over the story, one needs to be fully committed to to giving players as open-ended a narrative as possible and to shove ones sh**** pseudo-space race parables up their fanfic writing ass.
When that doesn't happen, games like DA2 and ME3 are made, where so much effort is put into having a single pre-rendered end-game resolution that those endings simply don't make sense under many of the contexts that players have developed themselves over the course of the story.
It takes a certain type of skill to write open-ended games, Bioware no longer has it.
The thing is that ME built it's reputation entirely on player agency. When one does that in a game, they sacrifice control over the story, one needs to be fully committed to to giving players as open-ended a narrative as possible and to shove ones sh**** pseudo-space race parables up their fanfic writing ass.
When that doesn't happen, games like DA2 and ME3 are made, where so much effort is put into having a single pre-rendered end-game resolution that those endings simply don't make sense under many of the contexts that players have developed themselves over the course of the story.
It takes a certain type of skill to write open-ended games, Bioware no longer has it.
edited: I see you are not the coder...//chuckdm said:
Are you aware that good artists study the how? That they study countless examples of anatomy in order to understand how the body moves through space or how one exists in the world they put that person into?
Are you aware that composers (me being one and one that has his degree work in composition) not only study music theory but also study acoustics?
Are you aware that composers study how instruments are set up as well as what are considered technical limitations to particular instruments, how to write passages to take advantage of different fingerings, registers and even how harmonics or even how, on certain instruments, multiphonics can be achieved?
I think you are limiting yourself to the "romantic view" of what an artist is and not the reality.
Video games have more than just programmers working on them. Directors, musicians, composers, writers, designers of all sorts, animators. Video games aren't just lines of code: they have story and the developers of said story can do whatever they fucking want to despite how pissed off that may make you.
Other times an artist may go out of their way to make their audience happy. This doesn't have to sacrifice their artistic integrity, mosts artists ENJOY giving fans a pleasurable experience while maintaining the right to sometimes say: "WHATEVAH WHATEVAH I DO WAT I WAN!!"
This freaking topic has been beaten to death. Seriously. Stop bringing it up.
Other times an artist may go out of their way to make their audience happy. This doesn't have to sacrifice their artistic integrity, mosts artists ENJOY giving fans a pleasurable experience while maintaining the right to sometimes say: "WHATEVAH WHATEVAH I DO WAT I WAN!!"
This freaking topic has been beaten to death. Seriously. Stop bringing it up.
This.evilneko said:
I have a friend who writes good code - VERY good code. One time, he wrote a program which was so elegant, compact, well-designed and efficient that it was regarded by other programmers as "a piece of art".
And it evoked great emotion from programmers who saw it, so who are YOU to say that it's not art?
Also, the OP says that an artist does not care at all about the "how".
I can safely conclude that the OP is either not an artist, or a very mediocre one.
I came in here having never before considered the topic. After reading the OP and everyone else's comments I'm thinking OP is wrong on this one. Shame because it was such a long post and probably took quite a bit of time and effort... just not enough objective thought. Maybe spend less time proving your point and more time making sure you have a valid one.
Also don't start with "I know it's true" unless you want to invite a load of dissenting voices. It just sounds like a challenge.
For my part I think art and engineering are not mutually exclusive skills. Art is so subjective that any debate involving it's definition or boundaries will inherit the subjectivity and fuzzy grey areas.
A+ for effort though.
Also don't start with "I know it's true" unless you want to invite a load of dissenting voices. It just sounds like a challenge.
For my part I think art and engineering are not mutually exclusive skills. Art is so subjective that any debate involving it's definition or boundaries will inherit the subjectivity and fuzzy grey areas.
A+ for effort though.
I'm glad we can all agree that this is stupid.
Programmers, engineers can be artists, for one thing. Mainly because problems allow the coder to get creative in solving problems, and that you can program anything you want. You have control over every aspect of your creation and can create any kind of program you want with virtually limitless resources.
For another thing, you seem to understand that Bioware has writers who are indeed artists that are entirely separate from the programmers and engineers, yet you conveniently ignore them for some reason. The people you are addressing in your argument: the people who fucked up the ME3 ending ARE in fact those writers, who are by your definition artists, as they don't work on any actual code or programming. I'm not sure whether this oversight stems from your lack of knowledge of how most game companies work nowadays, or if you legitimately just didn't think about it.
Programmers, engineers can be artists, for one thing. Mainly because problems allow the coder to get creative in solving problems, and that you can program anything you want. You have control over every aspect of your creation and can create any kind of program you want with virtually limitless resources.
For another thing, you seem to understand that Bioware has writers who are indeed artists that are entirely separate from the programmers and engineers, yet you conveniently ignore them for some reason. The people you are addressing in your argument: the people who fucked up the ME3 ending ARE in fact those writers, who are by your definition artists, as they don't work on any actual code or programming. I'm not sure whether this oversight stems from your lack of knowledge of how most game companies work nowadays, or if you legitimately just didn't think about it.
Pretty much sums up the topic.II2 said:
As usual, unless you've actually worked on a game, any conception you have of it is probably wrong. Yes, even if you worked on a non-game software development project, some things might be similar, but to think it's the same is wrong.
I mean, what other industry has a merging of all these varied disciplines into a product? Not just programming and testing, but also 2D and 3D art of characters, environments and animating it all? Writing, cinematics and sound? Making sure the UI is decent, as well as communicating it to the player, let along doing the same over a network for a multiplayer game?
And having to juggle it all?