You people are ridiculous

[Yopaz]

Since when was DLC like this free?

An example I keep going back to is Magus from Chrono Trigger. Having him in the party was optional and didn't need to happen, but we got him without having to pay $10 over the price of the game we paid for. Yes, it wasn't downloadable (due to the tech at the time), but he probably would be if the game was made today. Games used to have these litte extras hidden as part of the game: extra characters and unlockable bosses in fighters, extra optional charactrs in RPGs, extra modes in platformers, hidden levels in shooters. I gueess if you're an older gamer you don't view the complete game as the shortest path between "press start" and "game over".

OK, your only example is one that isn't DLC? That's nice. Also are you under the impression that all optional content is DLC these days? Take a look at Tales of Vesperia. There's almost as much optional content for that game as there is main content. Optional content includes sub plots, alternative missions, alternative costumes, hidden weapons and alternative game modes.

If you want to make a point, at least make it resemble the discussion at hand remotely.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

First of all, since this is a very important topic, yesterday I went to McDonald's (it was a moment of weakness, I'm sorry) and I ordered a burger. Then I asked about putting cheese on it. They said it costs an extra 99 cents. What. The. Fuck. To put something extra on my burger, I have to pay more? And the cheese was in the restaurant. I could see it in the kitchen from where I was standing. Sitting there, already made, and they want me to pay extra for them to just stick it on my burger? This is such shameless exploitation. McDonald's obviously hates all their customers and they're a plague on the restaurant society.

That's why I steer clear of McDonald's; and only try and eat in places where I know the food isn't going to be commercially churned out using the worst ingredients, the stock photos trying to hide the underpaid staff, dreadful conditions and lack of care; and I don't end up feeling emptier afterwards.

It's getting harder not to be drawn into the controversy of McDonald's when it's all everyone thinks of talking about though. And when you're told that you're a hater, and you must go in and sample it before you're allowed an opinion, and your opinion must be the same as theirs, and people keep coming out and bringing out graphs showing exactly what goes into McDonald's...

And then there's Mass Effect 3; but I repeat myself.

 

[tahrey]

wait a minute, OPs getting ripped off here. Round my way, a hamburger is 0.89, and a cheezburger is 0.99 ... it's only a 10p difference, rather than more than doubling the price.

and strangely i think that sums up my personal issues with egregious DLC quite nicely. it's not a 10p cheese slice, it's a 99p one, on an 89p burger.
heck, even a double cheezburger is only 1.29... an extra 30p. let's call that a major expansion pack/semi-sequel.

and now they're often trying to get away with selling you a bun that has ketchup and maybe a pickle in it, but no beef patty. that's extra as well. and on every other tuesday you can only get certain parts of the patty by buying your burger from a particular mcdonalds outlet.

by the way - does your local outlet charge extra if you want a packet of bbq ketchup to dip your fries into? because mine doesn't... there's your hats / extra avatar skins.

 

[lapan]

The problem is, most of what we get as DLC nowadays used to be unlockables a few years ago. This is especially true for fighting games. Remember Tekken 3 or DoA2? All the extra characters and costumes you got for free back then are 10? DLCs nowadays...

 

[RagTagBand]

I've got to say that before I owned ME3 I would have thought that the From Ashes DLC would be like the Zaeed DLC and that everyone whinging that "ITS INTEGRAL AND IMPORTANT AND NECESSARY FOR THE MAIN PLOT" was speaking out of their collective asses.

An interesting but short and ultimately quite shallow addition to my game. A mission, a room on the Normandy that isn't empty any more, a new gun or ability and somebody who, If I talk to, will not really talk to me, but talk at me.

So far, now that I'm played through ME3 and have done the DLC mission to get my new squad member...It seems I was right. The DLC contributed a few nice cut scenes but literally fuck all else of any considerable worth.

 

[Sperium 3000]

Oh you Yanks, eating at such horrible restaurants. I say boycott the cheese, that will work right?

Boycott cheese?

I'm afraid I can't do that, cheese makes up a good 87% of my daily intake of awesome foods. The rest is bacon. With melted cheese on it.

Sir, you are now my nutricionist.

 

[Xanthious]

snip

Yeah you're just willing to eat up any anti consumer bullshit these publishers want to feed you with a big smile on your face and not only ask for more afterwords but try and spoon feed that bullshit to others. I'm sure EA really appreciates people like you. You even went that extra bit dragging up that tired played out chart that means absolutely fuck all. Hell maybe I should make a multi colored chart, they seem to be popular lately. Keep on defending those people who don't give two shits about you beyond your wallet though fella. You're doing a super job!

Speaking of that chart though the part on the bottom that makes me chuckle is the part that says that it only seems like price gauging and exploitation but they give us their word that this isn't what it is. Well shit I guess that settles it, we have their word on it!

 

[josemlopes]

Most of the analogies are stupid, yours included. If you wanted to make one that even remotely came close you could have used DVD's or Music CD's:

1: A music CD has fifteen songs on it. The retailer is charging full price (meaning, the same price as another cd with 15 songs on average) for 10 of those songs, but says: For another $5 you can unlock these 'bonus' tracks.

So... dont fucking buy it. What you are buying first are just the 10 songs, not the 15. Just because they are there it doesnt mean that you bought them. Don't think that you have them and to unlock them you have to spend more 5$.

It would be wrong if the CD was advertised as having 15 songs for the original price, but no, you knew what you would get for that price and that was 10 songs. The same goes with everything else, when you buy a game you know what is DLC and you know that you aren't paying for that so make a choice, buy it now, wait for it to get cheaper or just don't buy it.

 

[GothmogII]

Most of the analogies are stupid, yours included. If you wanted to make one that even remotely came close you could have used DVD's or Music CD's:

1: A music CD has fifteen songs on it. The retailer is charging full price (meaning, the same price as another cd with 15 songs on average) for 10 of those songs, but says: For another $5 you can unlock these 'bonus' tracks.

So... dont fucking buy it. What you are buying first are just the 10 songs, not the 15. Just because they are there it doesnt mean that you bought them. Don't think that you have them and to unlock them you have to spend more 5$.

It would be wrong if the CD was advertised as having 15 songs for the original price, but no, you knew what you would get for that price and that was 10 songs. The same goes with everything else, when you buy a game you know what is DLC and you know that you aren't paying for that so make a choice, buy it now, wait for it to get cheaper or just don't buy it.

Already done. (The err...not being bought thing. )

I don't believe I mentioned anywhere that you, I or anyone -had- to buy a certain product, so I apologise if it seemed like that was what I was implying. I'm a firm believer in consumer responsibility, Caveat Emptor and all that.

 

[TehChuckles]

I just feel when I buy something I should actually own it instead of just having the right to use it in a way determined by the producer. I mean seriously if it's on the disk I should be able to use it! I paid for the disk and the data on the disk. not just some of it. imo it's as bad as buying a jam doughnut and being made to eat around the jam until the baker says I can which will cost me a little extra.

 

[Your once and future Fanboy]

I will mostly defend Bioware here. I think it's annoying to have to download a character for a heavily story-driven game, but until I know how important/relevant the character is to the game and the overall story I won't complain.
In Mass Effect 2 we had Zaeed or Kasumi as DLC characters, and while they had some extra missions and equipment that where fun, their overall importance where minimal at best.

So I think we have nothing to ***** about (for now). If you want something to ***** about, start complaining that the ending to FF 13-2 is DLC.

 

[Mr Companion]

Massive Quote

Ah ok that's fair enough. I only assumed he would be important because I can't imagine introducing a member of that species nonchalantly or without consequence. I mean you would think being able to directly communicate with a live Prothean could give you all sorts of Intel on the reapers making it massively sought after by both sides and only Shepherd would be able to communicate with it ect. Its almost a shame it wasn't something bigger from a plot perspective, and it will be even more disappointing for fans who bought the DLC intending to have sex with it when they realize they can't
.....
.....
Please say you cant.

 

[DjinnFor]

YOU DON'T NEED A PH.D IN GRAPHICAL DESIGN TO DETERMINE THAT SOMETHING'S FUCKED UP WHEN YOU SEE THAT!

My god. You must adore playing broken games. Shit like that? The fucking janitors could have found that bug and forwarded it on to the programmers.

And the fucking janitors need to be cleaning the god damn building, not sitting on their asses playing games. What's your point?

You do NOT need to be an expert to detect these bugs and forward them on to the programmers. You just have to have two working eyeballs and attempt to play the game. All the ones I listed are in very commonly accessed areas of the games in which they occur, as well. It's not like some obscure glitch in the farthest fringes of the game map.

Oh, I think I get it. You think that publishers don't already have a team of hundreds of minimum wage teens to playtest their game for the four months before release. Apparently you think that the process of finding and then subsequently fixing bugs is a simple process of throwing enough people at it and that publishers aren't doing enough. Apparently, you've no clue how the real world works.

Anyone who isn't skilled to fix the bugs should be playing the game and trying to break it.

Anyone, eh? You have a very jaded and naive view of the business world if you think that just anyone can be spared to sit on their asses for four months. It's not about who can do it, its about who's time is best spent doing it. There's a reason why lawyers hire secretaries and game developers hire testers.

Honestly? I'd rather take a game that functions but lacks DLC entirely over a broken pile of ass that's got DLC.

Great then, you got what you wanted with pretty much every game that's ever come out in the past decade. Why are you complaining again?

 

[Atmos Duality]

I just dont see why the fuck they cant just release the game with the shit already on it, and just raise the price.

its not hard, just make a date when your ready, but obviously taking idiots money is more important to them so theyll throw and unfinished game out the window with the weapons and characters as dlc.

its jsut stupid to me, but I dont care, never bought mass effect 3.

That is what they did... the dlc was stored on the disc. Same outcome, but storing on the disc is a more blatant cocking

You know why they don't just jack up the price for the actual Full Game? Marketing.
They're manipulating consumer perception to create an appearance of value that isn't really there.

The *actual cost* of the full game is much more than what consumers THINK they're paying for it, and (initially at least) they only realize how much they're missing when EA crams the DLC page in their face and goes "PAY UP, SUCKA!".

Of course, I like to think that most of us here on the forums were a little more informed, and knew this was going to happen in advance.

As for the whole "You pay for extra to get extra". The problem lies in what is defined as "extra", and if EA is actually paying extra to create that content, relative to what it costs.
There are a number of ways to address this issue, but most of them will end in the usual rage-induced hyperbole, cute pictures that omit critical details, or other argumentation that relies on purely circumstantial evidence (we don't know what contract Bioware and EA have; is Bioware being paid to do that in overtime? Do they get paid for the DLC post launch? These issues matter if you're arguing "extra" from a development cost angle).

The only way we can truly address the problem is by voting with our wallets.

See, even if the trend is to skew the value of games more and more in favor of the publisher (which it does by economics. I already addressed why on page 2), the topic still remains entirely subjective. This doesn't mean we should just ignore the trend and accept it though, as some around here are implying, but we definitely shouldn't be screaming at each other through our keyboards.

Ultimately, the question becomes "Is this DLC worth the money?" or even "Is this BUSINESS MODEL worth supporting" if if you're concerned more with principle. It doesn't matter; they both have the same answers.

Honestly, the topic has been addressed, the original argument debunked several times already without any definitive logical retort. It'd be best to close this farce down and get the hating done with already.

 

[Joccaren]

Ah ok that's fair enough. I only assumed he would be important because I can't imagine introducing a member of that species nonchalantly or without consequence. I mean you would think being able to directly communicate with a live Prothean could give you all sorts of Intel on the reapers making it massively sought after by both sides and only Shepherd would be able to communicate with it ect. Its almost a shame it wasn't something bigger from a plot perspective, and it will be even more disappointing for fans who bought the DLC intending to have sex with it when they realize they can't
.....
.....
Please say you cant.

Yeah, its the assumption a lot of people made. Super Important Race = Super important character. Straight from the start he tells you you that he cannot help with the Crucible - He was a warrior, not a scientist. It would have been a good opportunity to introduce extra information on the Crucible, if a bit cliched and that, but as is he provides some interesting insights to Prothean culture and that's about it.
And no, thankfully you can't. Tali gets drunk at one point and messages him over the ship that she thinks he really likes Liara, despite constantly acting cold and rude to her. Thankfully I don't believe that's pursued any further.

 

[Adultism]

Once again, You bought content, the game is not yours you paid for the right to play it. They can do whatever they want with it it is THEIR game. Not yours.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

Oh you Yanks, eating at such horrible restaurants. I say boycott the cheese, that will work right?

I told you, it was a moment of weakness. Normally I wouldn't be caught dead in one of those places (unless I ate my food in it [/nervous chuckle]).

...what kind of McDonalds are you going to that doesn't have the burgers come with cheese?

Spoiler: this is what I get when I go there

 

[TsunamiWombat]

Don't care about Day 1 DLC, never did. Got bigger fish to fry, Have you SEEN that ending?

 

[dietpeachsnapple]

Per your models, I can see why Day 1 DLC exists. I would maintain, however, that it shouldn't.

It is content ready for release, on release day. I will not say, however, that it should be free. We, the customers, should be charged something both worth the time and effort of the production teams, AND monetarily reasonable for a person who doesn't want to refinance their home.

I wouldn't mind seeing $20 games that showed the customers the core of the product (say the game engine, the characters, a bit of world to explore the controls, and a few hours of mission), The first DLC for some real meat of the game is already in production at release, and is sold for $10-$20. By the time that is released, you can see if your game is being well received. I have only been charged $30-$40, I know if I want to buy more of this game, and the game company has a purchase from someone who would have, otherwise, waited 5 years allowing the game's price to go down.

 

[Chemical Alia]

DLC ready with the launch of a game could also be explained with additional factors, as well. Risk management, for example. It's not uncommon for features to be cut from the game's main development for schedule reasons, memory constraints, etc. It could still be cool content and something the developers want to deliver, so that is sometimes also worked on on the side and added with DLC, but isn't risking the game's major milestones/requiring as many resources.

Another thing relating to the development cycle itself is that employees in different disciples are needed more or less in different capacities during the course of development. When art production is winding down towards the end of a project, for example, the company may not just want to lay off all of those people who now have less work, but to roll them right onto DLC projects to keep the flow of production going and making sure people still have jobs to do.

I don't think it should be a decision made solely on financial factors, as the relationship and trust a studio has with its community is an important thing too. But there are a lot of factors that go into producing a game that I think the casual consumer doesn't usually consider in his/her arguments.