Revolutionaryloser said:
OK firstly you've misunderstood something. I said it's better not to go into the philosophy of Matrix because the philosophy of Matrix is way deeper than most martial arts films so you r argument that Matrix isn't as deep as other martial arts films is plain misinformed.
I was trying to be respectful and listen to your opinions because you seemed to think you knew a lot about the genre but now I suspect that you know less than I do. You don't know much about films in general and the huge evolution of cinematography that Matrix brought with it especially in the martial arts genre. Scholars worldwide credit Matrix with some of the most innovative and revolutionary filming techniques ever. Some of the best martial arts directors that have ever lived worked to create the scenes in that film and it represents the most ambitious martial arts filming project in history. You also don't seem to understand the difference between a reference and "ripping-off". Aside from that, if the same director that filmed one scene reproduces the scene in another film, how can he be ripping-off his own work?
If you really did know anything about martial arts or Kung Fu you would know that Kung Fu englobes an absurdly large and vague legacy of styles, philosophies, practices and combat techniques that originated from the historical region of China. As such, nearly every popular martial art today (and certainly every martial art in Matrix) stems or is very heavily influenced by the Kung Fu tradition. Trying to exclude martial arts that are not "Kung Fu" is silly because martial arts and Kung Fu are integral parts of each other. Then you seem to think that Hero counts as a good example of a "kung fu" movie of all things. Hero is to real martial arts what My Little Pony is to real horses. If you'd asked me to choose one film which was definitely less realistic (n the usage actual martial arts techniques) it would have definitely been Hero. You're talking about the film where they spend half of the time fighting in the air, stopping thousands of arrows with their blades and using ludicrous secret techniques that have no basing in any type of martial arts and which they never even explain.
And seriously, you are arguing that because a film like Matrix has a plot it makes it less worthy? For your information, Matrix isn't even the most fantasy story in the genre. Hell, moreoften than not martial arts films are based around some sorceress putting evil spells on her enemies and the ghosts of ancetors leading the protagonist or whatever. Is Journey to the East not the quintessential martial arts story? Did it have to sacrifice it's pretentions to a well written and profound story to be part of the martial arts genre? No it didn't. Just because a lot Chinese directors don't enjoy big juicy Hollywood film budgets to make their movies doesn't mean that when a director does get a generous budget and can flesh out a really good film he should be chastised for it.
Kung Fu films don't have to be "just about Kung Fu". The plot can be about anything as long as the fight scenes are still there. Jackie Chan movies spend a lot of time showing off death-defying stunts which have nothing to do with martial arts. Do we go around saying Jackie Chan films aren't really martial arts films? I don't and neither should anybody else because a film shouldn't be limited by the genre it was concieved in. The genre should be providing a strong foundation upon which to make better and better films, not a cage in which they are forced to repeat the same formulas.
And before you go and say guns aren't martial arts or something silly like that, yes, guns are martial arts and many of the best martial arts films feature gun fights generously.
What are you, 12?
the same director that filmed one scene reproduces the scene in another film, how can he be ripping-off his own work?
It's called plagiarism, and yes you can very well plagiarize your own work. Ask any teacher, or have you not graduated starter school yet?
If so many scholars credit the Matrix with copying other martial arts films, then please by all means post the articles or some proof. And before YOU mistake any further, just because the cinematography was good in the Matrix doesn't make it a good martial arts film. HOW you shoot something does not necessarily improve WHAT you shoot.
I know more about guns and Kung Fu than you ever will. I'm an expert level marksmen by NRA standards; pistols, rifles, and shotguns. Also, for the past few years I've been studying Northern Long-fist Wushu, and have proved to be pretty damn good. I don't compete, I study it for self-defense and health. I know a lot about the various styles of Wushu, because I have been learning them. I have forms that originated from Shaolin, contemporary broadsword styles, Gong Li (a form passed down for hundreds of years and taught to Chinese military forces). I know more than you ever will.
I've trained with people who have black belts in Taekowndo, Jiu Jitsu, Samurai, Karate, and they do not encompass ANYTHING that Wushu teaches. Wushu is by no means an "integral" part of other martial arts. Each one is different, teaches different principles, and trains you in different ways.
You want to speak of how "real" Hero is...compared to The Matrix? Hero is based on a true historic figure, and all those action scenes were told via story from Hero to the Emperor. They were exaggerations of the true details to make Hero seem that he did all of this in the name of his king to get closer for his mission.
And no, I'm not arguing that since The Matrix has a plot it makes it less worthy. Once again, you're twisting my words around not paying attention. Im saying because the plot is based on humans rising against machines, because the biggest actions scenes are computer models. In ALL the martial arts discussions I have ever had with people, not a single practitioner of martial arts has ever referenced the action in the Matrix. People who have multiple black belts and have been studying for decades, have never once talked about the Matrix as a good Kung Fu movie.
Just because a movie has Kung Fu action, doesn't make it a Kung Fu film. Supercop is an action film, but I would not instantly label it a Kung Fu film. Why? Because Kung Fu is the type of action China has. They focus just enough on his martial skill to show that he can handle himself in rough situations, but the main story is that he is the only cop strong enough to stop the drug lords.
Lastly, no. I know many real life martial artists who would instantly get mad at you for saying guns are indeed martial arts and are featured in the best martial art films. Though I personally have no problems with guns, many of the people who practice martial arts do. Martial arts is about training your mind and body with discipline. Finding inner strength and turning it outward, relying on your natural power. Guns go against this and many martial artists have problems with them. it doesnt matter how much you have trained yourself, guns can tip the balance in any direction.
You really have no idea what you're talking about. Take it from someone who practices Wushu. The Matrix has some decent Kung Fu-type action, but I shall never consider it a "kung fu film". It is a wonderful science fiction film, but it stays there. I will not agree with whatever you say. You have a terrible basis for facts, don't seme to understand the basic principles of Wushu, and seem to think good cinematography outright means good Kung Fu film.
