You're a teen so you're not in charge of your sexuality...

[Sir Thomas Sean Connery]

Looking at it from a purely statistical perspective, I can see where the argument is coming from.

Mathematically speaking, the majority of humans are heterosexual. Combine that with the dual facts that teenagers are a pile of hormones and that many of them do in fact experiment and it isn't unreasonable.

That being said, I do think it's a mistake to always assume someone is just going through a phase.

 

[Autumnflame]

Because making your sexuality your one defining trait. is a poor choice as if thats all thats important about you.

Can that be said in any way aboot Ellie?

a large potion of people would say no. another portion of people believe it should be.

 

[Dr. Crawver]

It's good to see some young'uns with empathy. I was actually glad to read that you're straight and can still understand why it's wrong to use that argument (only saying this as I've recently been seeing a lot of mid teens who are rather homophobic).

It's an argument my dad (who humorously tries to still claim he isn't homophobic) used to make, along with "you don't know you're gay until you've had sex with a man." They're stupid arguments made by people who don't understand, or don't want to understand, nothing more.

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

Yeah, when I posted a thread talking about a certain character turning out to be gay in The Last of Us (not going to spoil that here)I got an overwhelming response of (She's/He is a teenager, which means she's/he is just experimenting, which means she/he doesn't know what the hell she/he is in the first place) I'm doing a shit job at hiding who this is but I'm really trying here okay. Either way, my problem with this is this idea that just because you're young, you don't know who you are.

It's a crazy statement, I understand where people are coming from with this, but I can't help be touched the wrong way by this. As someone who is also 15 years old, and likes girls as a guy. No one ever goes to me and says "Eh, he doesn't REALLY like that girl, he might be gay, or bi, who knows!?!?" That doesn't happen, no one ever questions my sexuality. So it comes off as just really strange that same thing would be said about this character in question and to just to blow it off because "She's just experimenting..." There's are reasons to blow it off in question if you don't like

A) The character in question
B) The DLC
C) Thought said DLC was useless

Fine. Who gives a fuck, I comment to have fun intellectual discussions about video games. I don't take this that damn seriously. But since this seems to affect the people around me and something certainly dangling over my generation, it just seems weird and something that I had to bring up. Anyways, I still love this site, still love the people, and just thought this was interesting to bring up. Thanks for reading.

Edit: portion removed because I think I came off sounding like a prat in it. Restatement: I don't think people intend to offend with the assumption that it might be experimentation, it's just a commonplace.

I experimented. My friend from 5th grade was gay. I knew he was gay before he did (most people did) - and it wasn't a phase, or an experiment, or a passing thing for him, it was who he was thru and thru - the "experiment" was him dating me (and I use the term loosely, we were too young for real dates, we're talking dinner with parent's driving, here wear my jacket, let's hold hands type stuff). My other friend, she experimented. People experimenting are either a) still finding out about themselves and what their sexual means and is or b) simply curious. I knew I was probably straight all the way, but that didn't mean I couldn't be curious or develop a strong attraction to my best friend that made me wonder "what if" I was another way. My guy friend didn't know he was gay yet, and so he was in the process of figuring it out for himself (by figuring out what didn't work, which was dating girls). My gal-pal decided to stay somewhere in the middle into adulthood, choosing the "best of both worlds" option.

The thing is it takes time for people to sort themselves out and satisfy their curiosities and the teenage years are the years when our society tends think is an acceptable time to do it - because it's supposed to be the "safe" time where you love without sex and feel without getting committed to the other person, and there's supposed to be some level of supervision and guidance from the parental units. Now, obviously, that's not as entirely true anymore - it was at some point - and so things are a little less clear now.

I haven't played the DLC (I didn't, in fact, care for The Last of Us as much as most people around here seem to have) so I don't know what the signs and signals and indicators in the writing and presentation were. From what I saw of Ellie in that game though she's very young, but has been forced to be mature about most things - sexuality not being one of them, since there doesn't seem to be tons of pairing opportunities in the post-zombie-spore apocalypse to work with. I think it could go either way and it sounds to me like the game leaves it slightly ambiguous to cater to the widest possible audience - those that would be more comfortable thinking it's a phase and those who would be empowered by her sharing a sexual identity with them.

 

[Dr. Crawver]

It's an argument my dad (who humorously tries to still claim he isn't homophobic) used to make, along with "you don't know you're gay until you've had sex with a man." They're stupid arguments made by people who don't understand, or don't want to understand, nothing more.

In all fairness, how do you know you wouldn't enjoy having sex with a woodchipper if you haven't stuck your dick in one yet? I really think you can't say you're not machinasexual unless you've applied your genitals to one two three four different pieces of heavy machinery.

It's more about knowing what you are, than what you're not. You can know you're gay without needing to have sex with a man, but at the same time some men might not know they're gay before they have sex with a man. The two aren't exclusive.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

It doesn't really matter to be honest. You find out eventually. Normally I'm on the side of "teenagers are old enough to know things and make their own decisions on what they do", but considering the number of teenagers who believe themselves to be non-humans in a human body, or vampires, or other shit like that, I'm inclined to say a fair few have no fucking idea what sexuality they are.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

Well, one commonly cited statistic for frequency of gay/straight is 10/90%, however those studies were recently cast into doubt as FAR overestimating the frequency of homosexuality. Let's say the actual number is 5/95%,

Link please? Because every study I've seen says the opposite - that there are fewer straight people than 90%. More like 70-80% with the rest being bi, gay, or some other flavor.

I know three or four girls in my high school year that "experimented". All of them are now straight.

Are they straight, or are they bisexual and happen to be in long term relationships with men? Because those are two different things.

 

[Mik Sunrider]

I always find it funny in a supposedly 'enlighten times' this still comes up. I never doubt that I was straight, even at a younger age all I wanted to do was kiss the girls. I also don't doubt that a gay boy or girl teenager knows that they like the same sex. Whether or not the ones around them are willing to accept it is where the problems come from. You don't have to jump off a building to know it is going to hurt when you hit the pavement; likewise, you don't have to 'try it' to know if it is your cup of tea. If you look at a guy and a girl and think "oh yeah! He is hot!" then yeah there is your answer.

The ones who annoy me are the ones who make a big deal out of it, yeah whatever don't care. Let's just sit down, drink a cold one and swap lies about our latest conquest.

 

[Norithics]

Well, the more important aspect is that it doesn't matter. Teenagers don't often know anything about themselves for absolute certain. There's an instinct to resent this point because it's very hard to live your life with the idea that "Oh well, I might not think any of this shit come a few years from now." So while it's got an air of probable truth to it, I don't really understand the point of telling a teenager that they're only in a phase, because what the hell are they supposed to do with that, short of second guess everything they do?

At the same time, "it's just a phase" in regards to a kid's orientation is the desperate bid of every parent that they'll never have to deal with something weird- and is usually hilariously mistaken.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

**snip**

I think what people are objecting to is your original example of a gay person turning straight and the idea that you (and your quote) imply that fluidity in sexual orientation can only occur while one is a teen.

Having looked over your posts, I believe what you're trying to say is that sexual orientation is always fluid, but it can be particularly so when one is a teen.

Remember, many of us who identify as other than straight get a lot of flack about "phases" and "experimentation" that attempt to trivialize our desires (sometimes even within the gay community). I don't think you were doing that - in fact I think you may have been doing the opposite - but your choice in language seems to have hit some nerves.

 

[InsanityRequiem]

I tend to think of it as this way. We start off as asexual creatures when we're born for the first decade of our life roughly, in which any sort of inappropriate/sexual conduct in that time can set off those hormones before we're physically and mentally capable of understanding what happened. Then when puberty hits, it's a floodgate of hormones telling your body to do many different things at once. Think of it as you having two legs at the start, but suddenly need to work out how to handle eight legs akin to a spider. You don't know what to do, you're forced to learn how to control multiple legs in an attempt to walk straight. That's what I see a person going through puberty as, their body is juggling trying to handle new appendages because of the conflicting hormones released. That's how most people would tend to go through 'phases' in their sexuality, as the constant flux in hormones can easily change what they find attractive currently.

The issue with 'heterosexuality' as the standard though is something I'd say as a more controlled issue due to thousands of years of heterosexual conditioning caused by the most prominent societies around 500 BC to now. Before then, pure strict heterosexuality seemed more like pure homosexuality, rare and often put aside compared to a more bisexually lenient cultural web. Marriage and sticking with someone of the opposite sex was more of a priority of lineage instead of the later act of 'Man/Woman love or you're burning in hell!'.

Just my mind workings, not really anything that can back that up though.

 

[Bellvedere]

It's not incorrect though. People do experiment as teenagers.

And in their 20s, their 30s, their 40s....

Didn't say that it was only teens?

I know three or four girls in my high school year that "experimented". All of them are now straight.

Are they straight, or are they bisexual and happen to be in long term relationships with men? Because those are two different things.

I know. I meant what I said - they now identify as straight. They identified as straight throughout most of highschool too and were briefly bi, whether that was because they changed or if it was because they misunderstood their own feelings I have no idea. Talking about it later, all that really came from it was "*shrug* - teenager".

Some people are totally clear about what they are, some people are unsure of their feelings and some people want to be something and fight against what they actually are. Confusion and experimentation as a teen is very common and very normal(and not uncommon or abnormal afterwards either). For some people a period of identifying as a particular sexuality really is just a phase and not just for those that will later end up identifying as only heterosexual.

 

[GeneralChaos]

Well, one commonly cited statistic for frequency of gay/straight is 10/90%, however those studies were recently cast into doubt as FAR overestimating the frequency of homosexuality. Let's say the actual number is 5/95%,

Link please? Because every study I've seen says the opposite - that there are fewer straight people than 90%. More like 70-80% with the rest being bi, gay, or some other flavor.

Here's one: A study done on adolescents that put the frequency of homosexuality at 5-7% is called into doubt when more than 70% of respondents who were classed as gay became straight adults.
Summary: http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/2014/01/young-pranksters-skewed-landmark-sexuality-study
Article: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24366659

I am not a professional scientist. I could be easily missing some flaw, mistake or misrepresentation from these results and others. However, I do believe that if you just plug in the numbers you can determine if it is ACTUALLY reasonable to believe teens when they claim to be gay/bi in absence of further evidence. Bayes may not care about hurt feelings, but it's great and figuring out what's true.

 

[Silvanus]

That's because heterosexuality is the default state. It's the way it's supposed to be in order to keep our species alive.
It's logical to be attracted to the opposite sex, that's why people don't question it.

"Supposed" by whom?

Heterosexuality and homosexuality are both natural states. Saying one is more "logical" than the other is misplaced, because neither one needs formal argument in order to exist. They just exist.

Calling heterosexuality more "logical" than homosexuality is like saying grass is more "logical" than moss. They are both just things that exist; they're not arguments to be evaluated.

The birthrate does just fine with gay people around (and, in many countries, is actually too high), so that's just a non-starter. [https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-nature]

 

[nariette]

I understand why parents would say "it's just a phase". While (I hope) most parents love their childeren regardless of sexuality, being straight is just "easier". It's (I believe) never an issue being straight, while being gay is just simply not completely accepted by society as a whole. I would love my childeren, but I wouldn't want them to go through of the feeling of not being accepted. If being gay was just accepted by everyone, would I mind? Of course not. You can't expect your child to never get hurt, but you don't want them to either.

For transsexuality: little kids can have a period where they refuse everything associated with their sex. I was a really boyish kid, played with cars and hated dolls, never wanted to wear skirts and preferred boys clothing. I identified more with boys but I grew out to be quite feminine. If someone told my mother that I might be transsexual, she would have probably said that it was just a phase. While this is of course different for transsexuals, I can understand why a parent would think it's a phase and also: the process of changing gender is not easy and you wouldn't want your child to go through such a heavy life experience.

My last point: Sexuality is a lot more complicated for women than for men. Brains from homosexual men and straight men are different and it can be proven where homosexuality comes from (while in women, these things have never been proven to my knowledge). For men sexuality tends to be easier: Men think more in "boxes", they like men, women or they like both. Women are just more complicated in that view: some women prefer men mostly, but have fallen in love with a woman a few times, like sex with a boyfriend but not sex with a girlfriend, etc. Perhaps this is why female friends are often more familiar and intimate with each other than males: While I don't have feelings for my friend (Though I'm quite sure I'm bisexual), I hug her, hold hands with her when I walk around, and we cuddle when watching tv.

Sexuality, gender, sex is just so complicated. It's hard to not offend anyone, while sometimes people read insults everywhere and you can't even get your point across anymore.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

Here's one: **snip**

Yeah, that study was bad in the first place. Although that summary claims that "pranksters" are the most likely cause, the fact that they asked a different question later seems a more likely issue.

They asked the teens "have you EVER been sexually attracted" to someone of the opposite sex.

Then, later, they went back and were like "but you're not gay!"

No shit - none of those people SAID they were gay - they said that they had experienced attraction to someone of the same sex. That could include bisexuals who chose heterosexual partners (which would get them labeled as "straight" as far as that study was concerned) or straight people who had homosexual thoughts once or twice. So the survey was skewed to begin with by not actually asking the question it was trying to answer.

As for the numbers, that was a study done by Cornell University of (if I understood correctly) area schools. Cornell University is in a very conservative part of New York State (the city of Ithaca is very liberal, but the area around the city which populates the area schools is not). People are still less likely to admit to being gay in conservative areas or after conservative upbringings than those from more liberal areas.