Zero Punctuation: Guild Wars 2

[Flying Dagger]

I find it strange how the people giving this game the most ire are the ones that haven't played it... I'm loving it , and having played the whole story of guild wars 1 and one of the expansions (factions) there is so much story there, but you do have to look for it - even in the human area, which as mentioned is the blandest of all the starting areas there is a battle raging between the centaurs and the humans, terrorist criminal groups attacking the city (or maybe that was just with my origin story), and so many more little battles going on, and if you talk to the NPCs then you get all the information.

I spent an hour or so wandering around the Norn starting town of Hoelbrook just listening in on conversations and chatting to people, listening to the wolf shaman telling the children of the wolf clan a story about the importance of the pack, wandering up to the shrine to the dead spirits and seeing the grave mementos of a god whose people gave their lives to protect the Norn and it was genuinely moving to see this out the way shrine that is so different to most games where the story is just there to move you to the next place to kill stuff, the characters, races and places are all fleshed out and intriguing.

I'd suggest people head over to Shamus Young's blog for a more detailed breakdown of the real pros and cons of the game

 

[bificommander]

Nice review. And the ratio of insults to compliments was actually slightly smaller than one, so I think I call that a positive review too. And as much as I like GW2, I agree with the disconnect between the uber-evil elder dragons and how much random stuff you end up doing. If I hadn't played Eye of the North and been following this game's announcements I wouldn't have known they existed, much less how important they're supposed to be. Though humans are the worst of all in that respect, they really do have you do 50% farmwork in the starting area. Even if it's mechanically the same as helping with Asura experiments, at least the latter sound more fun.

Also, I'm suprised to see Yathzee pick the humans. I'd have pegged him for Asura, the little snarky bastards who feel they're smarter than everyone else and let them know at every occasion.

 

[Britisheagle]

I really need to check this game out at some point.

Stupid uni, giving me loads of work...

 

[MonkMiroku]

Very circus themed this week. Did he meet a clown at the expo?

He didn't see a clown, but he did see the rest of the contributors doing Gangnam Style. Close enough?

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

Ok firstly, that was exactly my point with FF XIII. It was not bad because it linear it was badly done that was the exact point I meant to get across. I for one did not like FF X but I can admit it has a good story despite being unashamedly linear. Same here in a way Guild Wars 2's story is not bad because it isn't immediately obvious and thrown on top of you. People who are interested in the story miss it because they literally run by. I mean people literally run by, over, around and under everything that will tell them stuff about the story. The aforementioned play is a good example of this among just clicking on stuff you can to see if anything pops up.

When I actually listened to the game I starting hearing amazing conversations. There is a charr engineer that throws cows at some other Charr Guarding a tower and a story of a Norn who killed a Drake Broodmother with said Broodmother's hatchling. Sure its a little fucked up but I just kept running by everything I wouldn't hear this. Passive mobs like Moa have something like 2 or 3 minutes of unique animation before they go into a loop and there is plenty more than just that. This to me seems like someone walking through a forest and complaining that they see no animals when they're shouting and talking loudly. You'll still have a nice walk but you won't see any wildlife.

I know that was your point I was saying no to your assumption on what I wanted and furthered that by agreeing with you on final fantasy XIII. I'm glad they do integrate story in that manner but can't they do more of that before hand. Instead of a quest discussion why not have it so as your walking down the road an npc runs you down and asks you for help and to follow him. On the way over he tells you what's going on maybe some larger world points if theirs time and then when you get close enough he points out the area and you can click on him to officially accept the quest. Or have it so a certain npc will come and save you and your group from an overpowered enemy attack in a tough battle with a scripted sequence then asks you to do him a solid after thus making you care about his problems and willing to listen. For the books you could have a university and take history and literature mini quizzes to gain experience for the books that you read so learning about the world helps make your character grow (I know some people will hate this but since it'd be voluntary I don't think it's an issue). Most people need to be invested in the story before they seek it out not afterwords.

I see you have a bit of a misquote moment there but on we go. I'd like to say that is an awesome way to start but quests and Guild Wars should do it but that already happens. There is a Dynamic event in the second human area where a kid runs up to you and asks you to save his Mother from bandits. That is just one example there are others and all escorts give you a bit of why and what they are ferrying from place to place and what you have to protect them from. So this is there. If you are the first you get to start it and etc. On the other thing I'm not sure if that happens outside of the personal story as something similar happens in the Sylvari story.

On the investment a lot people miss out on the things that invest you in the story because they are to rush through it to reach this magically land of 80 and endgame. That is not really the true end game of Guild Wars 2 but you get good stuff there. The only arcs that could have used more exposition to invest you in the characters are the Order arcs.

 

[MetalMagpie]

Ok firstly, that was exactly my point with FF XIII. It was not bad because it linear it was badly done that was the exact point I meant to get across. I for one did not like FF X but I can admit it has a good story despite being unashamedly linear. Same here in a way Guild Wars 2's story is not bad because it isn't immediately obvious and thrown on top of you. People who are interested in the story miss it because they literally run by. I mean people literally run by, over, around and under everything that will tell them stuff about the story. The aforementioned play is a good example of this among just clicking on stuff you can to see if anything pops up.

When I actually listened to the game I starting hearing amazing conversations. There is a charr engineer that throws cows at some other Charr Guarding a tower and a story of a Norn who killed a Drake Broodmother with said Broodmother's hatchling. Sure its a little fucked up but I just kept running by everything I wouldn't hear this. Passive mobs like Moa have something like 2 or 3 minutes of unique animation before they go into a loop and there is plenty more than just that. This to me seems like someone walking through a forest and complaining that they see no animals when they're shouting and talking loudly. You'll still have a nice walk but you won't see any wildlife.

I know that was your point I was saying no to your assumption on what I wanted and furthered that by agreeing with you on final fantasy XIII. I'm glad they do integrate story in that manner but can't they do more of that before hand. Instead of a quest discussion why not have it so as your walking down the road an npc runs you down and asks you for help and to follow him. On the way over he tells you what's going on maybe some larger world points if theirs time and then when you get close enough he points out the area and you can click on him to officially accept the quest. Or have it so a certain npc will come and save you and your group from an overpowered enemy attack in a tough battle with a scripted sequence then asks you to do him a solid after thus making you care about his problems and willing to listen. For the books you could have a university and take history and literature mini quizzes to gain experience for the books that you read so learning about the world helps make your character grow (I know some people will hate this but since it'd be voluntary I don't think it's an issue). Most people need to be invested in the story before they seek it out not afterwords.

Er... I think you've experienced a quoting error. I didn't say any of that.

 

[tmande2nd]

"From Healing, to Tanking, to Wanking"

Sounds like what happens whenever I play a Paladin.
"HEAL ME!"
"TANK THAT BOSS!"
"....You cant really sneak so just stay there!"

 

[Wareve]

"Like a man sending his gazpacho soup back to be warmed up." ... wait a second... is this not an incredibly obscure Red Dwarf reference!?

 

[Furrama]

snip
I think understand what you're trying to say I think but it just reminds me of people saying FF XIII was bad because it was linear. It wasn't bad because it was linear it is bad because it was just badly done. I assume you are saying the starting areas are bad because they are boring/give no urgency?

No. First of all that whole final fantasy argument is kinda bull because 10 was fairly linear too and it did much better whereas a lot of people didn't like 12 as much and it was the complete opposite. Final fantasy 13 fell apart on character and narrative pacing and also the least fun battle system ever created for a j-rpg. Not the point just had to be said. What I am saying is that the manner the story is presented makes the story too easy to miss or ignore. The story is presented in little blurbs in between the game rather then as part of it. Further thee blurbs are about 90% filler with no context to anything relevant to the character or the over arching plot. most quests are just hearing someone whine to you about how collecting x amount of macguffin will make their day. This makes a lot of people tune out so when something important does come up many people have already been conditioned to tune out. This is a bad way to tell a story. The heavy RPers will eat this up of course but for many playing the game it'll just be too much to slog through to get to the good bits.

I always find stories told this way daunting for this reason although I will tend to push through I know many people that simply don't and stare at me googly eyed when I explain what we did what we did. It's not that they didn't like the story but the way it was told made them tune out on reflex. The better way to do it is by integrating it as part of the in game play rather then keep it a separate entity that you have to work through in addition to playing the game. The original reason for my posts on this thread was to defend yahtzee saying there was no story because since the way the story is presented in these games is so external to the actual game itself it becomes easy to overlook. Better scripted events in controlled areas that involve allies as well as enemies would be a far superior way to advance the plot. Make the story part of the action and part of the game I don't think this is a new argument.

Whether or not it sucks is a matter of opinion and what you're looking for. Plenty of people don't care about the story in games, no matter how good/bad it is. They skip cut-scenes, they care little for context, they just want to smash in heads. Some people love the rails, and feel that's what makes a story stronger. Neither are wrong.

If you read up a bit on page two somewhere you'll see I also have my own issues with the story. Mine is not the mechanism in which they deliver the story, but how badly paced it can be in places, and dissonant at times with earlier themes and whatnot. It looks less like they didn't have faith in their story, but that they didn't have time to refine in delivery. It's all there, it just didn't gel very well. The story itself isn't even that bad, it just needed some epicifying at the end and better pacing in the middle.

But it does suck because people who are interested in story miss it. Also every other argument I mentioned. A good game story shouldn't be skipped because it doesn't need to be skipped. It's right there as part of the game and unfolds as you get through the action. I know this is difficult maybe even impossible in an mmo setting but as I said before that doesn't make it any less bad just an unfortunate necessity rather then indications of an inept design team. Standards are standards.

All I can say is that if you're interested in the story you'll have to work for it a wee bit more than you might be used to. It's just not thrown at you in a conventional way. Hang around and listen to conversations. Read things. Don't pop out of your personal story as soon as it's done. Talk to people before you go, they always have extra stuff to say, often good stuff. It's not that difficult, just don't barrel through content. Stop and smell the roses.

Most of what you'll miss if you miss anything is backstory. The going forward necessary to know stuff is relayed to you in the more conventional way so you won't miss it.

 

[acosn]

1: MMO's on release almost never have end-game content, and guild wars 2 by design can't go the "raid" route because it's trying to avoid ridiculous gear ceilings.

2: GW2 isn't what Arena Net tried to sell. It's not a revolution, and it's not exactly the next sliced bread. The combat can still get boring, and there's still plenty of grinds.

3: On the other hand it's still the best MMO we've seen since WoW. This is literally the game Warhammer Online wished it was however many years ago.


It's got flaws- there's still no real sense of impact in the game, and you never really figure out what the hell's the context of everything unless you uh....I don't actually know. There's still a lot I can't figure out about the game's story and I'm at 80.

The game lets you hot-swap weapons for most classes, but doesn't let you hot-swap gear which is irritating because what makes sword and board work as a survivability build clashes with what makes a beater build with a 2-handed sword work.

The game's LFG system is MIA. The dungeons are damn fun, but when I think that the last MMO I played this seriously was WoW it's kind of depressing that I'm taking such a step backwards and going back to going to the zone the instance is in and crossing my fingers that I'll find a group.

The crafting system was kind of half-asssed too. It's not exactly fluid when after completely clearing a zone and doing my damnedest to collect every single crafting node along the way I'm typically about half way through that particular material, while the zones are stepping up to the next level.

 

[Tomeran]

I tried GW1 and it really didnt do it for me. Now when many of my friends have gotten GW2 and some are bugging me to get it as well, I found this review of particular interest, even if I didnt quite find it as positive as some others.

 

[Jamous]

A buff that turns nearby moths into jam? Possible spoilers? Could be. I look forward to finding out.

 

[Danceofmasks]

What the hell is wrong with people here?
"Skill points aren't useless because legendaries" ...

Is this what MMOs do to people?
Legendaries in GW2 are exactly the same stat-wise as exotics.
The only things that makes them "better" are achievements and looking good.

If you sort of know what you're doing, you can have your exotic with stat-distribution of choice, AND transmute it into something else with pretty looks, almost immediately on dinging 80.

Having to spend an additional 200 hours to not get an upgrade does not make skill points less useless

I like this game and all, and I do intend to get one legendary (for the achievement), but I know it's a complete waste of time.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

Having to spend an additional 200 hours to not get an upgrade does not make skill points less useless

I like this game and all, and I do intend to get one legendary (for the achievement), but I know it's a complete waste of time.

Or you can spend them on Siege master's guides for upgrade siege blue prints and on Philosopher's Stones for upgrading materials at the mystic forge. That and when the inevitable expansions come out more skills.

Philosopher's Stone + Tier 2 Dust + Tier 2 Material + Tier 1 Material = Tier 2 material

Just change around numbers for other tiers.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Having to spend an additional 200 hours to not get an upgrade does not make skill points less useless

Well to be fair, yes it actually does.

It's just that you personally don't see the value in doing that. But that doesn't make them useless, they have a very clear function and you just don't want to bother with that function. That's okay, but that's opinion. The fact of the matter is, whether you recognize it as useful to you personally or not, the skill points DO have a purpose and function beyond purchasing skills.

Heck, I don't even intend to pursue my own legendary (as I consider it too much time for no real gain, and basically GW2's method of keeping players interested long-term, like how WoW uses raiding to get the best items) and I still recognize that it doesn't render the idea invalid. Much like Sprite isn't invalidated simply because 7-UP and Sierra Mist exist, and some people are perfectly happy spending money on Sprite. Fine if you don't like it, but that doesn't make it unnecessary.

Also as another user pointed out, the Mystic Forge practically revolves around skill points. Legendaries are just one example of skill point usage. Most people get their Lvl 80 exotics from the Forge via skill point exchanges.

Your analogy with Sprite vs 7-UP and Sierra Mist would only work if you have to walk 20 miles to get the Sprite.

 

[Abedeus]

"Dragons lately"

You mean that Guild Wars DIDN'T HAVE 2 dragons, plus a lot of foreshadowing to dragons awakening in sequel.

That's 2008, when last expansion pack came out.

I wish people at least tried to read lore of the previous game before judging the story in it.

 

[Vegosiux]

Is this what MMOs do to people?
Legendaries in GW2 are exactly the same stat-wise as exotics.
The only things that makes them "better" are achievements and looking good.

Which is awesome. No tiered gear progression is one of the things I like most about GW2. Means I can drop out of the game for a while without having the feeling I've missed out on something and need to catch up.

It also does away with all the "Your gear must be X levels above stuff that drops in this instance or you're not getting into my group for this instance" nonsense. I hear they did not implement an inspect function precisely to combat gear elitism.

Also, skill points are useful for other things, too. Mystic weapons sell quite high on TP I hear.

 

[Chunko]

I thought it was hysterical when he said "The whole server's a party and everyone is invited".

 

[AdrianRK]

Dude, I know you really hate MMORPGs but, are you ever going to review The Secret World?