Zero Punctuation: Lords of the Fallen - Imitation is Flattery?

Sonicron

Do the buttwalk!
Mar 11, 2009
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stringtheory said:
Sonicron said:
I tried Dark Souls once and couldn't get very far past an early boss fight.
As someone who recently 'broke through the wall' that is your early first playthrough of Dark Souls, I am required to ask which early boss fight were you stuck on?
Come to think of it, I eventually did get past that annoying Taurus Demon. However, there was a fire-breathing dragon sitting above an arched gateway that barbequed me into oblivion over and over, and trying to evade it via a route below resulted in getting repeatedly knocked off a narrow walkway by giant plague rats. Eventually it all became too frustrating for me, and I returned the game to the rental store.
 

geldonyetich

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The main thing I got from this review is, "Yep, it's an awful clone, look at what an awful clone it is."

Leading me to conclude that Yahtzee needs more interesting games to review.

Might I recommend Fantasy Life? It's not, strictly speaking, a JRPG. Nor it is exactly like that previous Studio Ghelbi-influenced Zelda-alike he played because it's trying to be a virtual world sandbox this time. With the same minigame repeated across five professions related to craftin- where are you going, Yahtzee?

Anyway, Fantasy Life has just barely enough wrong with it to be rife for entertaining nitpicks, while actually being an example of a way the whole, "Singleplayer game of the worst parts of MMORPG" can be reasonably tolerable with a good balance and less overhead. On the downside, it might take awhile to play to get a good impression about it.
 

Haru17

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Adeptus Aspartem said:
Haru17 said:
[
Monster Hunter also isn't based around frequent death, a mechanic that means the unwilling interruption of your current activity and is considered by most if not all gamers to be inherently not fun.
Just cutting out this little line. I honestly think DS wouldn't have had any succses is this would be even remotely true.
Most people i know and myself had no issues with that. Quite the contrary, the high difficulty and resulting deaths actually challenged me to get better.
Which leads to a really awesome gameplay once you're in the zone, dodging left, right and center and parrying all dem Silverknights till your parry-button breaks.
I realize some people appreciate that kind of ridiculous level of difficulty, but that's what's fun, not the death. Think about it; the only reason those close fights are so tense is because you want to avoid the punishment of death. Therefore Dark Souls isn't popular because death is fun, but rather because death *isn't* fun and players strive to avoid that.

I don't think Dark Souls is bad, I just disagree with its design on a more fundamental level. I don't want to play a game that's constantly punishing me for not working *so* hard to play it. Busy life and all. After all, there's nothing gained from going from 'a good gamer' to 'a gamer who is good at dark souls' as very few games are made that difficult. I think that's reasonable, as it allows more lay-folk a smaller barrier to entry to the medium as a whole. That and there's plenty of challenging games, like Monster Hunter, that aren't as oppressively difficult as Monster Hunter.
 

Sotanaht

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Thanatos2k said:
Kerethos said:
I won't lie, I rather liked the armor designs I've seen from this game. I'm a sucker for all the moving details.

But I imagine if everything is equally detailed and over designed it will all end up looking too similar to remain interesting for long. After all it's the variety in armor design (from practical to outright silly) that's part of the Souls games identity - something for almost everyone.
Yeah, it's fine if you end up looking like some armored monstrosity at the end of the game fighting giant hulking brutes left and right, but when you START off looking like that there's no visual progression of the power and progression of your character.

Haru17 said:
Have you even looked at the UI in any From Software game? In the tutorial at the beginning of dark souls 1 I tried to figure out how to kick, the sign said it was LS + R1. Naturally after 5 minutes of clicking the left stick, as there was no directional signage, I discovered the sign meant you need to push the left stick forward while pressing R1. I don't know what that is, but it's sure a helluva lot 'clunkier' than Tri ever was.
Um, I understood that right away. It was left stick, not L3.

In any Souls game you don't take a time out in combat to run to a corner and sharpen your weapon. Monster Hunter is beyond clunky.
I see you haven't played Dark Souls 2 then, because you can end up doing exactly that. Or you WOULD, if repair powder wasn't insanely rare, expensive, and mostly only available late in the game. Instead you bring a spare weapon or three.
 

Mangue Surfer

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Warachia said:
Dark Souls wasn't really unique either though, the combat was taken from Monster Hunter and nearly everything else from random folklore.

I will say that I thought it fixed a number of the bullshit things in the Souls series (like not having some planks that you can walk on and some you can't with no visual indication of which is which), but I can also agree it's too short.
In fact, this type of "into the darkness" RPG exist in Japan for some time before Demon's Souls. Is more a quest of made to western shores and be successful.
 

Warachia

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Azure23 said:
Warachia said:
Dark Souls wasn't really unique either though, the combat was taken from Monster Hunter and nearly everything else from random folklore.

I will say that I thought it fixed a number of the bullshit things in the Souls series (like not having some planks that you can walk on and some you can't with no visual indication of which is which), but I can also agree it's too short.
As someone who's played a ton of MH (at least until my psp broke and hunting buddies moved away) and a shit ton of Dark souls, I've just gotta ask: how is the combat the same? I mean there are superficial similarities, with positioning and dodging being very important. But beyond that I'm not really seeing the connection. For one thing I always found that the lack of a lock on function changed how I approached a monster dramatically, especially with the focus on tail cutting (which, admittedly, was present in a few souls fights) and body part breaking in general. I suppose you could make the argument that both combat systems are mostly designed with one on one fights in mind, but in MH your character is much less agile than the monsters you're hunting, so positioning is everything. A lot of the time it's the opposite in Dark Souls, your character is usually much faster than your opponents, even to the point that chain backstabbing is the best way to fight larger humanoid enemies.

Anyway I love both series but I always found they played very differently.
You character in Monster Hunter moves the same and has the same kind of animation style, as in the weapons have the actual weight and your character isn't some sort of superhuman who can do 20 foot leaps, they're both focussed on making your character feel like a person (Monster Hunter's large weapons notwithstanding, though Dark Souls 2 does this as well). Your character is also only less agile if you're using the larger weapons, with the smaller weapons it's easy to outrun and dodge the enemies. I found it was the opposite in the Souls series, it's only the early monsters you're faster than, the majority of later enemies and bosses are faster than you are.

As such whenever I fought any sort of large monster in Demons/Dark Souls I always felt it played very similar to the Monster Hunter series (especially bosses like Flame Lurker).
 

TheUnbeholden

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Dec 13, 2007
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geldonyetich said:
The main thing I got from this review is, "Yep, it's an awful clone, look at what an awful clone it is."

Leading me to conclude that Yahtzee needs more interesting games to review.

Might I recommend Fantasy Life? It's not, strictly speaking, a JRPG. Nor it is exactly like that previous Studio Ghelbi-influenced Zelda-alike he played because it's trying to be a virtual world sandbox this time. With the same minigame repeated across five professions related to craftin- where are you going, Yahtzee?

Anyway, Fantasy Life has just barely enough wrong with it to be rife for entertaining nitpicks, while actually being an example of a way the whole, "Singleplayer game of the worst parts of MMORPG" can be reasonably tolerable with a good balance and less overhead. On the downside, it might take awhile to play to get a good impression about it.
He liked Dark Souls so by extension, likes Lords of the Fallen. Thats the thing I do at the end of every review, I go "yeah.. but did he like it?", to which I answer, does the game do well what the game he really liked did well? If yes, then yes. Its a all a matter of seeing the details and asking the simplest question.


JUMBO PALACE said:
This is what I was hoping to hear about too. I've kept my eye on the Steam page and forums for this game since launch and the devs are still dragging their heels on patches when some people can't even get past the main menu. I like souls, I like big armor, I like pretty graphics. I want this game but I'm not going to gamble $50.
This. Dark Souls was a pain in the ass to get the controls feeling right, Lords of the Fallen doesn't even run on common system set ups. Been waiting 3 months, probably would need to wait another month.
 

geldonyetich

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TheUnbeholden said:
He liked Dark Souls so by extension, likes Lords of the Fallen. Thats the thing I do at the end of every review, I go "yeah.. but did he like it?", to which I answer, does the game do well what the game he really liked did well? If yes, then yes. Its a all a matter of seeing the details and asking the simplest question.
I just re-watched it wondering how you could get this interpretation. He spends over half the video explaining how attempting to clone an original, good game will end up unoriginal by nature of this being a derivative. Then he goes into several ways of how Lords of the Fallen does not improve in a single aspect of Dark Souls. Then he goes into how Lords of the Fallen introduces a number of ill-designed flaws of its own. So he has basically explained in painstaking details how Lords of the Fallen is not only unoriginal by trying so hard to ape Dark Souls, it's also inferior in virtually every way unless maybe over-the-top character design is a plus in your book.

At the end of that, I'm inclined to think "He liked Dark Souls so, by extension, likes Lords of the Fallen" could not be more wrong. But then, I guess I didn't really need to be told that, because established gamers have plenty of reason to be completely sick of inferior clones. The gaming landscape of every platform is lousy with inferior clones. It's a plague, a depressing morass of utter suffering for all involved. That said, "I liked X and so, by extension, I will like clone-of-X" was completely out the window from the start.
 

TheUnbeholden

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geldonyetich said:
I just re-watched it wondering how you could get this interpretation. He spends over half the video explaining how attempting to clone an original, good game will end up unoriginal by nature of this being a derivative. Then he goes into several ways of how Lords of the Fallen does not improve in a single aspect of Dark Souls. Then he goes into how Lords of the Fallen introduces a number of ill-designed flaws of its own. So he has basically explained in painstaking details how Lords of the Fallen is not only unoriginal by trying so hard to ape Dark Souls, it's also inferior in virtually every way unless maybe over-the-top character design is a plus in your book.

At the end of that, I'm inclined to think "He liked Dark Souls so, by extension, likes Lords of the Fallen" could not be more wrong. But then, I guess I didn't really need to be told that, because established gamers have plenty of reason to be completely sick of inferior clones. The gaming landscape of every platform is lousy with inferior clones. It's a plague, a depressing morass of utter suffering for all involved. That said, "I liked X and so, by extension, I will like clone-of-X" was completely out the window from the start.
Inferior but not by much, I think thats what I'm seeing. I know that its quite stupid to try and clone Dark Souls because its got such a rabid fanbase that require a very high standard of map design & making hard games isn't the specialty of triple A. But here its done fairly competently. But not being original is I think quite a big flaw, makes it more difficult to defend against critique (can't argue with that). Particularly when the developer has enlisted the help of popular Youtubers to pretend to like the game, gaining a legion of fanboys to pre-order the game and defend it to unreasonable lengths (buyers remorse, trying to justify purchase is strong with them). Sad but its happening more and more, attempts to try and corrupt a free source of critique, but we can usually see whats legit and whats not just by the Youtubers reactions not being 1:1 with whats happening on screen. We got physical evidence to compare what the Youtuber is saying. The devs of H1Z1 employed this tactic, also Warner Brothers did in the most brazen way with the contract outlining how NICE you must towards the game while playing it. No doubt we'll be seeing more of this shit.
 

Dansen

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Mar 24, 2010
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shrekfan246 said:
Arthain said:
I wonder if Yahtzee would ever review one of those niche Japanese titles that were ported to english, such as, say, Hyperdimension Neptunia Victory. I love that game but boy, they really are a niche title, and for good reason.
I wouldn't say it's impossible, but I wouldn't hold my breath either. Yahtzee is pretty outspokenly not fond of most JRPGs (Dark Souls aside).
Just throwing this out there, I though he liked the Persona Series, I feel like I remember him doing an article about the characters. However it could have been another contributer, just felt like it was another exception to the Rules of Yatzee. He also liked a gmeboy JRPG if Im not mistaken, forgot what it is called.
 

shrekfan246

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May 26, 2011
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Dansen said:
shrekfan246 said:
Arthain said:
I wonder if Yahtzee would ever review one of those niche Japanese titles that were ported to english, such as, say, Hyperdimension Neptunia Victory. I love that game but boy, they really are a niche title, and for good reason.
I wouldn't say it's impossible, but I wouldn't hold my breath either. Yahtzee is pretty outspokenly not fond of most JRPGs (Dark Souls aside).
Just throwing this out there, I though he liked the Persona Series, I feel like I remember him doing an article about the characters. However it could have been another contributer, just felt like it was another exception to the Rules of Yatzee. He also liked a gmeboy JRPG if Im not mistaken, forgot what it is called.
I don't recall him ever talking about Persona in any sort of detail, but I could just be forgetting. As for the other one, you might be thinking of The World Ends With You for the DS, which he apparently found pretty tolerable and with moderately interesting characters (high praise from him as far as JRPGs are concerned).
 

gridsleep

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Sep 27, 2008
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Either I'm having a really scary deja vu right now, as if I have seen this whole review several months ago (started about 2/3 in) or this is very similar to another review of several months ago. Does this review and its graphics seem familiar to anyone else?
 

Thanatos2k

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RejjeN said:
Thanatos2k said:
In any Souls game you don't take a time out in combat to run to a corner and sharpen your weapon. Monster Hunter is beyond clunky.
A bit off topic but... Repair Powder? ;D
If that ever happens (it has happened to me once over the entire series) you just switch to one of your secondary weapons and finish the fight.
 

Vicioussama

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Jun 5, 2008
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Tbh, felt like I was playing Diablo more than a Souls game with Lords of the Fallen. Gameplay was somewhat similar, but ya.

Lords of the Fallen was alright, but the crashes on release were bullshit.