Zero Punctuation on 2D Games

[myogaman]

So Yahtzee reviewed them 2.5D games and said (in his column) that 2D games will always win out graphically if they are beautiful because 3D games will always become outdated graphically. His logic is that art will always be beautiful if its not wrapped around some shitty polygon (that's it in a nutshell anyways). 3D games will always have more and more graphical enhancements added to them making the last ones look horrid over time.

So I was just thinking, some games are in 3D, but so well done, that they would never be graphically outdated because they aren't going for a realistic look. My main three examples are Zelda: Windwaker (which so many people shunned for its graphics), Digital Devil Saga 1+2, and the unreleased Borderlands.

Borderlands is a prime example because at first, it /was/ done realistically. Now they changed it over to make Borderlands more colorful and artistic. In my opinion, that makes the game have so much more life because it is no longer a simulation of reality (graphically) but rather an abstract, arty viewpoint on reality. The characters' looks haven't really changed either (look at some old Borderlands stuff on gametrailers.com). The only difference is they added flare and style instead of realism.

Windwaker was probably one of the worse selling Zelda games (ignoring Zelda II ) just because everyone wanted a realistic Zelda game (aka Twilight Princess). I also know that some people just hate cell shading. They think it makes it look cartoony when they want realism. That's fine, just expect to be buying a lot more games because you /need/ realistic graphics.

Digital Devil Saga 1+2 took a semi-realistic approach mixing cell shading and realism but the added cell shading made it beautiful and better looking than most PS2 games. The mature themes also helped make it less cartoony. I dare say that Shin Megami Tensei is one of the greatest artistic game series ever made.

So the point of all of this is saying that trying to make something look real will lessen your game's life expectancy considering how many gamers make graphics a large part of their decision making process. Hardcore gamers that are open minded will always try a game no matter the graphics but in this day and age, people consider graphics to make the game good. That's why text based games are dead.

What does everyone else think?

 

[TheNumber1Zero]

that too many people like to argue about what he has to say?

you do have some good points though,but what happens if someone else does a style like wind waker,but does it better?

regardless people shouldn't make graphics a top priority when picking games.

 

[Merteg]

Team Fortress 2, which unlike those games, has a major following.

 

[Manhattan2112]

Graphics aren't very important.
But they are a little important. Sometimes graphics can determine how easy it is to play a game (If the only distinguishable characteristic between a friendly and an enemy is say, a color, I'll end up killing off my team if the graphics are pretty poor. Does anyone else know what I mean?)

 

[quack35]

Bro, you're preaching to the choir.

And most people don't think graphics are a top priority. Only like 5% of gamers do.

 

[DrDeath3191]

Team Fortress 2, which unlike those games, has a major following.

Yeah. Because Zelda doesn't have a huge following.

I personally don't care for graphics all that much, but both 2D and 3D graphics can look fabulous if done correctly.

 

[Merteg]

Team Fortress 2, which unlike those games, has a major following.

Yeah. Because Zelda doesn't have a huge following.

I personally don't care for graphics all that much, but both 2D and 3D graphics can look fabulous if done correctly.

Most of the following doesn't care for Winder Waker.

 

[DrDeath3191]

Team Fortress 2, which unlike those games, has a major following.

Yeah. Because Zelda doesn't have a huge following.

I personally don't care for graphics all that much, but both 2D and 3D graphics can look fabulous if done correctly.

Most of the following doesn't care for Winder Waker.

Good point... [small]damned fools[/small]

 

[Naheal]

Team Fortress 2, which unlike those games, has a major following.

Yeah. Because Zelda doesn't have a huge following.

I personally don't care for graphics all that much, but both 2D and 3D graphics can look fabulous if done correctly.

Also note the fans for Baldur's Gate, KotOR, Jade Empire, Starcraft, Diablo 2, Neverwinter Nights, Morrowind (more so then Oblivion)...

 

[myogaman]

Also note the fans for Baldur's Gate, KotOR, Jade Empire, Starcraft, Diablo 2, Neverwinter Nights, Morrowind (more so then Oblivion)...

But those games haven't aged gracefully. When they came out the graphics were great and people loved the games. My point being that if it had shit for graphics (see Sega Saturn) people would have been turned off by it.

Also when I say a majority, I really mean today's youth. I'm friggin' 19 but I spent an entire summer with only a NES and my final 2 years in high school with a Pentium II 6GBHDD 128RAM Windows 2000 PoS (note that was from 06-08). I think many people are spoiled with graphics and it blinds them to great games. System Shock 2 was insanely awesome (IMO far better than Bioshock) but if you look at the balloon figures and square environments, people might not even try it (for those who don't know, the first two thief games use the same engine). Of course these games don't need great graphics to scare you, and as Yahtzee said (me paraphrasing) "Silent Hill knew its limitations and used it to its advantage. The fog made it so the game didn't have to render huge environments but added a tenser atmosphere."

But I'm glad to see the escapist community is very open minded about graphics.

also...@ Merteq TF2 has a cartoony cell shaded look to it...so it still follows my main point.

 

[myogaman]

you do have some good points though,but what happens if someone else does a style like wind waker,but does it better?

You mean gameplay or graphics? Because surly any piece of 2D art can be improved meaning that any texture for cell shading can be improved. And no debate in saying that Digital Devi Saga is prettier than Windwaker. Windwaker doesn't show its age though (as in poor polygon models, low-res textures, slowdown).

On a sidenote about the Zelda series, most people say its the same dungeon doing the same thing for the same loot when...it hasn't...like at all. Ocarina of Time had ...time travel, Majora's mask had a better time travel system, Windwaker had a flooded world (see the much underrated Mega Man Legends) and Zelda as a pirate, Twilight Princess had the Invading Darkness theme. They all did stuff different but used the same prototype.

Ok, back on topic.

 

[ChromeAlchemist]

Borderlands looks cool, but because I've been following Red Steel 2 more, I keep thinking RS2 when I look at it. They both look nice either way, but I'll soon forget about them visually once I start playing. If I play those games a year down the line, it's because they play well, not look pretty. Plus.

that too many people like to argue about what he has to say?

you do have some good points though,but what happens if someone else does a style like wind waker,but does it better?

regardless people shouldn't make graphics a top priority when picking games.

I think we're done here. Or, maybe not, I think someone will have to explain to me more that 3D games won't stack up to 2D simply because they become outdated, because IMO Chrono Cross still looks good in terms of art direction, the models and environments are still nice and detailed. I say they age worse than 2D games, but stack up both compared to their more recent counterparts, and they aren't going to look as good.

-snip-

It's because people don't understand that if you radically change Zelda that you are taking away what makes it Zelda. Let's face it, the only ones who bitched about TP and that the next Zelda won't be radically different were non-Zelda fans/players, and quite frankly, their opinion is as relevant as mine on Twilight (I haven't read or watched it).

 

[myogaman]

So when I first posted this, it was about how graphics looked later on and I tried to void out gameplay but now its obvious that, though both are different parts, they are both tied to each other (more than you need graphics for a game cause MUDs don't need no graphix). I mean how do graphics change or enhance gameplay? Simply, they don't enhance the way the game plays.

Graphics are like glitter in those little firework popguns. If the gun is fun to fire over and over, it doesn't need glitter. But great glitter can always make a popgun better. (shitty metaphor)

So if graphics don't make a game and they remain timeless because of their gameplay, why do consoles strive to get better and better at rendering? I mean obviously its for the advancement of real-time rendering and a statement about company resources by why waste all that when you would make a system that enhances gameplay?

Answer: The Wii tried this. The Wii gets about 1 superb a year but that game is a MUST HAVE. Twilight Princess, Metroid Prime: Trilogy, Mario Galaxy was beautiful and...weird but fun. Smash Bros Brawl and Monster Hunter 3 (am I the only one excited for MH3?) will only add to it but does that make it worth its CHEAP pricetag?

I'm rolling in tangents here.

Wii started out at $250 while others started out at $600. This because Nintendo tried to prove that a gamesystem doesn't need graphics to be good, it certainly helps but doesn't need it. The part where the Wii falls is how everyone wants to just pump the shit out of the graphics OR use the Wiimote for everything retardedly.

Simply put, graphics are the only thing we see in a video game before it comes out. It will BE the only thing we see. Trailers, Screenshots, Videos, those don't mean shit. This isn't a movie, its a GAME. If I just said "EPIC EDGE IV has over 9,000 guns, has a character and power customization system, a tuner for everything from your character to guns to his cell phone, and revolutionary controls" THEN showed you a picture of some 8-bit game, would you put it at the top of your list?

I think graphics (including Tits and Ass) are the only way to really grab someone's attention. Sure some games don't need TnA to hold our interest but it seems ALL HAVE SOMETHING LIKE THAT. So graphics...they are attention grabbers and gameplay enhancers. Graphics will never make or break a game, only bad gameplay can do that. If I'm wrong, please argue your point.

 

[tsolless]

To be truthful games will still date. Art changes. Look back at all the older forms of art and what used to be successful (I'm talking really old. Not just Renaissance times) and while some art is still beautiful there is art that was once considered to be wonderful is now not considered to be aesthetically pleasing. One day we will look at colourful textures and cell shading and groan with disgust. Not as soon as graphics will puke out but it will happen eventually.

edit:

And now that we have HD 2d games the older 2d games are dated slightly.

 

[AceDiamond]

Team Fortress 2, which unlike those games, has a major following.

Yeah. Because Zelda doesn't have a huge following.

I personally don't care for graphics all that much, but both 2D and 3D graphics can look fabulous if done correctly.

Most of the following doesn't care for Winder Waker.

So that's why it sold so well.

 

[Clashero]

That's why the graphics of games like Okami and TF2 never seem to age.
The Longest Journey had 3D low-poly characters over hand-drawn low-res, 2D backgrounds. The backgrounds still look amazing, but the 3D models are laughable.


I still think the best graphics ever belong to Curse of Monkey Island.

 

[myogaman]

To be truthful games will still date. Art changes. Look back at all the older forms of art and what used to be successful (I'm talking really old. Not just Renaissance times) and while some art is still beautiful there is art that was once considered to be wonderful is now not considered to be aesthetically pleasing. One day we will look at colourful textures and cell shading and groan with disgust. Not as soon as graphics will puke out but it will happen eventually.

edit:

And now that we have HD 2d games the older 2d games are dated slightly.

Have you seen some of that biblical art? I was amazed people could paint the human body so realistically 600 years ago. I'm not arguing I was just saying "Holy shit there is some amazing old paintings"

I disagree with Yahtzee in the fact that 2D games don't show their age. For example, I absolutely love Super Mario World's graphics, but the NES Super Mario Bros assaults my eyes so much that I can't play it (I don't like 8-bit for some reason). But yeah, relative to 3D games, 2D will always age better.

I also agree with your exceptions. Windwaker looks as good to me now as the day I bought it, some 6 years ago. Can't say the same fo the other Zeldas.

And lastly, graphics are minor when compared to gameplay, but they can still make the game more enjoyable. So yes, they are important in that regard.

I think 8 bit and 16 bit are exceptions because of their low pixel rate. The 24 bit Neo arcade (and the $800 home console) set the standard for how 2D games should be detailed. Look at Metal Slug and King of Fighters, we are still using those sprites for all of our 2D fighter games. Sure they get trimmed up for HD and new releases but in the end, its still the same old artwork 15 years strong.

I was just reading up on the Dreamcast 9/9/99 release 10 year anniversery and everyone seemed to agree that one thing the Dreamcast did do right was fighting games. Look at Shenmue which was supposed to be jaw dropping, shiturpants awesome graphically but then look to Marvel vs Capcom. The games that lasted past the Dreamcast were its 2D games (ignoring the fact it has a huge corporation backing those games). Those games didn't change platforms until /after/ Dreamcast died (aka 2 years later XD).

Of course games that don't look like they were hand drawn, but are 2D look shitty. Like...8bit...but even then a skilled person could make 8bit look good (like Mega Man!).

I have noticed that point and click adventure games have the most brilliant graphics though. If they aren't jaw dropping beautiful, then they are at least unique enough to catch our attention and hold it. But they have to be like that. No one wants to play another HORRIBLY GENERIC LOOKING GAME like Might and Magic dah first. Seriously, go pick up that game on Abandonia.com and try to beat it without graph paper. Its like scraping a fork against china.