Zero Punctuation: Papers, Please and Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons

[Nurb]

The point is that unlike the Nazis, transgender people have not comitted genocide, raped and pillaged their way through Poland or set up fascist states, and really have done nothing to harm anyone, so cracking cruel jokes at their expense is taking it a bit far.

Except he wasn't cracking a joke at the expense of the Nazis. He was cracking it at the expense of the Jews.

And dead or tortured babies. Don't forget the tortured babies. I doubt that they've committed genocide, either.

The thing with the Nazi, Auschwitz and dead baby jokes is that like with many of his jokes the subject matter either does not exist anymore of is completely over the top so that it can't be taken seriously (grating babies faces off).

I think 'hypocrisy' is the word you are looking for.

Screw masses of people that died in inhumane conditions, someone is doubting my sexuality!

Gender, not sexuality. And transgender people are disproportionately more likely to commit suicide or be murdered over who they are than most other minorities, so... y'know.

And no, it's not hypocrisy. It's not hypocritical for something to be offended by something that relates to me (and some of my friends) personally. It might be closer to hypocrisy if I laughed at the holocaust joke (note: I didn't even hear it!), but chances are I wouldn't have. It would be even closer if I made that joke, but again, I didn't.

Transgender people are one of the minorities where jokes/comments like Yahtzee's have a real-world effect, because they feed in to all these misconceptions and ignorant beliefs that transpeople are doing it for sex, or that they're freaks, or that they're truly still men despite presenting and identifying as women. And those are hurtful things, because they're not true at all.

I've 'watched' Yahtzee for many years now, and as such I am fully aware of how offensive he can be (such as the last half of Mogworld being complete trash - OHHHHHH!), but that doesn't mean it's somehow my fault for being offended. Yahtzee said something I was not comfortable with (nor were other people, judging by some of the feedback in this topic) and I stood up and said it made *me* uncomfortable.

You nor anyone else is so special that a joke can't be uttered.

"But solemnity? It serves pomposity, and the self-important always know with some level of their consciousness that their egotism is going to be punctured by humor ? that?s why they see it as a threat. And so {they} dishonestly pretend that their deficiency makes their views more substantial, when it only makes them feel bigger."
-John Cleese

 

[Canadamus Prime]

Sorry, there's no way in hell you're going to sell me on a paper work simulator.

Aren't you the guy who i see in every forum complaining about too many gernric 'medal of call of duty' shooters
and then when a new indie IP comes out with which isn't based around: war, shooting or fighting. You write it off as boring?
i think you need to rethink your life

No you must be thinking of someone else because while it's true I've commented a few times about the prevalence of "generic 'medal of call of duty' shooters," I don't write off any new indie IP as boring because it's not based around war, or shooting, or fighting. I don't even like war games. I'm writing off Papers Please because it sounds boring PERIOD. However I am open to the possibility that it isn't boring.

 

[Zombie Badger]

Nobody is so special special that a joke can't be uttered.

"But solemnity? It serves pomposity, and the self-important always know with some level of their consciousness that their egotism is going to be punctured by humor ? that?s why they see it as a threat. And so {they} dishonestly pretend that their deficiency makes their views more substantial, when it only makes them feel bigger."
-John Cleese

You're right that nothing should be immune to jokes. The question is about the choice of joke to make. The problem with Yahtzee's politician joke was that it implies unpleasant things about Yahtzee and his own views on the subject matter, partly by the fact that he didn't intend it to be offensive.

Also, I love the level of maturity your gif brings to the conversation.

 

[Erttheking]

Nobody is so special special that a joke can't be uttered.

"But solemnity? It serves pomposity, and the self-important always know with some level of their consciousness that their egotism is going to be punctured by humor ? that?s why they see it as a threat. And so {they} dishonestly pretend that their deficiency makes their views more substantial, when it only makes them feel bigger."
-John Cleese

You're right that nothing should be immune to jokes. The question is about the choice of joke to make. The problem with Yahtzee's politician joke was that it implies unpleasant things about Yahtzee and his own views on the subject matter, partly by the fact that he didn't intend it to be offensive.

Also, I love the level of maturity your gif brings to the conversation.

Oh come on, what does that joke have to do at all with his views on the subject matter? He also flat out said that he sent people to death camps for having the wrong name on their passports in that game, and the signs were on the checkpoint to a highly xenophobic country. How on Earth does that imply his views on anything?

 

[Nurb]

Nobody is so special special that a joke can't be uttered.

"But solemnity? It serves pomposity, and the self-important always know with some level of their consciousness that their egotism is going to be punctured by humor ? that?s why they see it as a threat. And so {they} dishonestly pretend that their deficiency makes their views more substantial, when it only makes them feel bigger."
-John Cleese

You're right that nothing should be immune to jokes. The question is about the choice of joke to make. The problem with Yahtzee's politician joke was that it implies unpleasant things about Yahtzee and his own views on the subject matter, partly by the fact that he didn't intend it to be offensive.

Also, I love the level of maturity your gif brings to the conversation.

No it doesn't "imply" anything. It's just your opinion.

And I think it's not only a perfect gif for the conversation, John Cleese actually blew raspberries after saying what I quoted

 

[Zombie Badger]

No it doesn't "imply" anything. It's just your opinion.

And I think it's not only a perfect gif for the conversation, John Cleese actually blew raspberries after saying what I quoted

I refer you to the post above yours.

 

[Erttheking]

Oh come on, what does that joke have to do at all with his views on the subject matter? He also flat out said that he sent people to death camps for having the wrong name on their passports in that game, and the signs were on the checkpoint to a highly xenophobic country. How on Earth does that imply his views on anything?

Well,

The problem with the joke is that it is saying that the only thing that defines someone's gender is their genitalia, so who they are underneath does not matter. Taken to its logical conclusion, this view states than transgender people cannot actually be transgender, as their personal view of who they are does not matter (in reality, the old 'man trapped in a woman's body' thing is literal).

Once again, what does that have to do with anything? Like I said, it wasn't Yahtzee's views on the subject, it was him making fun of the xenophobic nature of the country. If you're talking about the sucking off joke, that wasn't actually insulting him. The joke was about comparing two descriptions that seemed to contradict each other, but really didn't. And even if it did, what makes you think that Yahtzee was honestly portraying his views and not just trying to get a crude laugh? I mean I live in America and I lost count of the number of times he took a shot at me.

 

[Vhite]

I think 'hypocrisy' is the word you are looking for.

Screw masses of people that died in inhumane conditions, someone is doubting my sexuality!

Gender, not sexuality. And transgender people are disproportionately more likely to commit suicide or be murdered over who they are than most other minorities, so... y'know.

And no, it's not hypocrisy. It's not hypocritical for something to be offended by something that relates to me (and some of my friends) personally. It might be closer to hypocrisy if I laughed at the holocaust joke (note: I didn't even hear it!), but chances are I wouldn't have. It would be even closer if I made that joke, but again, I didn't.

Transgender people are one of the minorities where jokes/comments like Yahtzee's have a real-world effect, because they feed in to all these misconceptions and ignorant beliefs that transpeople are doing it for sex, or that they're freaks, or that they're truly still men despite presenting and identifying as women. And those are hurtful things, because they're not true at all.

I've 'watched' Yahtzee for many years now, and as such I am fully aware of how offensive he can be (such as the last half of Mogworld being complete trash - OHHHHHH!), but that doesn't mean it's somehow my fault for being offended. Yahtzee said something I was not comfortable with (nor were other people, judging by some of the feedback in this topic) and I stood up and said it made *me* uncomfortable.

My bad for not saying gender. Words sex (which you also might find different from word gender but in my first language there is only one word for them so pardon me if you do) and sexuality are awfully similar and so my brain somehow let it pass.

Also to clarify, I don't have anything against transgender people but what I don't like is people making fuss of jokes. I did laugh, out loud and merrily on both Jewish and transgender jokes. All respect to you and them but in my opinion, jokes are for laughing and it doesn't matter to me how tasteless it is if it's comically well placed. I admit I probably wouldn't laugh on joke that would hit me that close but I wouldn't hold it against other people.

Ignorant people will remain ignorant as long as they wish no matter what you feed them.

What I said still stands, if you really don't like offensive jokes you would have stopped watching ZP long time ago, not just when you are concerned.

 

[Zombie Badger]

Once again, what does that have to do with anything? Like I said, it wasn't Yahtzee's views on the subject, it was him making fun of the xenophobic nature of the country. If you're talking about the sucking off joke, that wasn't actually insulting him. The joke was about comparing two descriptions that seemed to contradict each other, but really didn't. And even if it did, what makes you think that Yahtzee was honestly portraying his views and not just trying to get a crude laugh? I mean I live in America and I lost count of the number of times he took a shot at me.

I'm sorry that I failed to make myself clear, I was referring to the politician joke, not the border control one.

 

[thisbymaster]

I want to play Paper's please but it is so much like my real life job.

 

[Erttheking]

Once again, what does that have to do with anything? Like I said, it wasn't Yahtzee's views on the subject, it was him making fun of the xenophobic nature of the country. If you're talking about the sucking off joke, that wasn't actually insulting him. The joke was about comparing two descriptions that seemed to contradict each other, but really didn't. And even if it did, what makes you think that Yahtzee was honestly portraying his views and not just trying to get a crude laugh? I mean I live in America and I lost count of the number of times he took a shot at me.

I'm sorry that I failed to make myself clear, I was referring to the politician joke, not the border control one.

Well the way he worded it didn't make it sound like the guy had any emotional connection to the person in question, more like he went out of his way to find pre-op transexuals purely for the sake of sucking them off. Even then I kinda question if it was intended to be taken as offensive.

 

[MeisterKleister]

Jokes against transsexuals were completely unnecessary and completely offensive.

I agree.
However, this videos does not contain any jokes *against* transsexuals, only a joke against hypocrites that happens to also contain a transsexual person.

"No trannies"
hm?

I didn't catch that one at first.

Irregardless, claiming that that is offensives, strikes me as completely ignoring the context.
He is parodying the immigration policies.

 

[FallenMessiah88]

I haven't really looked into either of these games, but they both seem very interesting. Especially Papers Please. An immigration officer simulator is a pretty unique and intriguing concept.

 

[Zombie Badger]

Well the way he worded it didn't make it sound like the guy had any emotional connection to the person in question, more like he went out of his way to find pre-op transexuals purely for the sake of sucking them off. Even then I kinda question if it was intended to be taken as offensive.

The joke itself is intended to be a new spin on the old 'closeted right-wing politician' joke, and is clearly not intended to be offensive towards transgender people. The problem is that it implies that someone who is transgender cannot be considered to be in any way their desired gender without surgery, which implies that their physical body is the only thing that defines their gender, and that their own perception of themself is meaningless.

 

[Erttheking]

Well the way he worded it didn't make it sound like the guy had any emotional connection to the person in question, more like he went out of his way to find pre-op transexuals purely for the sake of sucking them off. Even then I kinda question if it was intended to be taken as offensive.

The joke itself is intended to be a new spin on the old 'closeted right-wing politician' joke, and is clearly not intended to be offensive towards transgender people. The problem is that it implies that someone who is transgender cannot be considered to be in any way their desired gender without surgery, which implies that their physical body is the only thing that defines their gender, and that their own perception of themself is meaningless.

I think you're taking this the wrong way. This joke had nothing to do with how transexuals see themselves. In fact, it had more to do with the guy who was sucking them off. Like I said there was nothing to imply that he had any emotional attachment to them and was in it just for the sex. Like Jim said in one of his videos, "This looks like a penis, it is shaped like a penis, it tastes like a penis so if I'm attracted to this, then maybe, just maybe, I might be attracted to penis." The transexual may see themselves as not male, but if the person having sex with them finds their penis attractive, especially when there's nothing to suggest they have any attachment tot the pre-op person then it's safe to say they may have some homosexual tendencies

I'm not trying to sound like a jackass here and I really do understand that transexuals get a lot of shit in this day and age, but I think you're overreacting to this.

 

[snowfi6916]

Well the way he worded it didn't make it sound like the guy had any emotional connection to the person in question, more like he went out of his way to find pre-op transexuals purely for the sake of sucking them off. Even then I kinda question if it was intended to be taken as offensive.

The joke itself is intended to be a new spin on the old 'closeted right-wing politician' joke, and is clearly not intended to be offensive towards transgender people. The problem is that it implies that someone who is transgender cannot be considered to be in any way their desired gender without surgery, which implies that their physical body is the only thing that defines their gender, and that their own perception of themself is meaningless.

I think you're taking this the wrong way. This joke had nothing to do with how transexuals see themselves. In fact, it had more to do with the guy who was sucking them off. Like I said there was nothing to imply that he had any emotional attachment to them and was in it just for the sex. Like Jim said in one of his videos, "This looks like a penis, it is shaped like a penis, it tastes like a penis so if I'm attracted to this, then maybe, just maybe, I might be attracted to penis." The transexual may see themselves as not male, but if the person having sex with them finds their penis attractive, especially when there's nothing to suggest they have any attachment tot the pre-op person then it's safe to say they may have some homosexual tendencies

I'm not trying to sound like a jackass here and I really do understand that transexuals get a lot of shit in this day and age, but I think you're overreacting to this.

Or... they could be like me and love their girlfriend regardless of what parts they have between their legs. I will love her penis while she still has it. I will love her vagina even more once she gets that. But I am in love with HER, not her body parts.

 

[Erttheking]

Well the way he worded it didn't make it sound like the guy had any emotional connection to the person in question, more like he went out of his way to find pre-op transexuals purely for the sake of sucking them off. Even then I kinda question if it was intended to be taken as offensive.

The joke itself is intended to be a new spin on the old 'closeted right-wing politician' joke, and is clearly not intended to be offensive towards transgender people. The problem is that it implies that someone who is transgender cannot be considered to be in any way their desired gender without surgery, which implies that their physical body is the only thing that defines their gender, and that their own perception of themself is meaningless.

I think you're taking this the wrong way. This joke had nothing to do with how transexuals see themselves. In fact, it had more to do with the guy who was sucking them off. Like I said there was nothing to imply that he had any emotional attachment to them and was in it just for the sex. Like Jim said in one of his videos, "This looks like a penis, it is shaped like a penis, it tastes like a penis so if I'm attracted to this, then maybe, just maybe, I might be attracted to penis." The transexual may see themselves as not male, but if the person having sex with them finds their penis attractive, especially when there's nothing to suggest they have any attachment tot the pre-op person then it's safe to say they may have some homosexual tendencies

I'm not trying to sound like a jackass here and I really do understand that transexuals get a lot of shit in this day and age, but I think you're overreacting to this.

Or... they could be like me and love their girlfriend regardless of what parts they have between their legs. I will love her penis while she still has it. I will love her vagina even more once she gets that. But I am in love with HER, not her body parts.

I said twice in my argument that it only applied if they didn't have any emotional attachment to them. I am not trying to insult anyone. I'm just saying that if someone is attracted to a pre-op transexual because of their body and not who they are, it might have something to with them having homosexual tendencies. On the other hand if someone really felt deep affection towards them, I see it more of a case of "If it's You it's ok," which I perfectly understand and respect.

 

[snowfi6916]

Well the way he worded it didn't make it sound like the guy had any emotional connection to the person in question, more like he went out of his way to find pre-op transexuals purely for the sake of sucking them off. Even then I kinda question if it was intended to be taken as offensive.

The joke itself is intended to be a new spin on the old 'closeted right-wing politician' joke, and is clearly not intended to be offensive towards transgender people. The problem is that it implies that someone who is transgender cannot be considered to be in any way their desired gender without surgery, which implies that their physical body is the only thing that defines their gender, and that their own perception of themself is meaningless.

I think you're taking this the wrong way. This joke had nothing to do with how transexuals see themselves. In fact, it had more to do with the guy who was sucking them off. Like I said there was nothing to imply that he had any emotional attachment to them and was in it just for the sex. Like Jim said in one of his videos, "This looks like a penis, it is shaped like a penis, it tastes like a penis so if I'm attracted to this, then maybe, just maybe, I might be attracted to penis." The transexual may see themselves as not male, but if the person having sex with them finds their penis attractive, especially when there's nothing to suggest they have any attachment tot the pre-op person then it's safe to say they may have some homosexual tendencies

I'm not trying to sound like a jackass here and I really do understand that transexuals get a lot of shit in this day and age, but I think you're overreacting to this.

Or... they could be like me and love their girlfriend regardless of what parts they have between their legs. I will love her penis while she still has it. I will love her vagina even more once she gets that. But I am in love with HER, not her body parts.

I said twice in my argument that it only applied if they didn't have any emotional attachment to them. I am not trying to insult anyone. I'm just saying that if someone is attracted to a pre-op transexual because of their body and not who they are, it might have something to with them having homosexual tendencies. On the other hand if someone really felt deep affection towards them, I see it more of a case of "If it's You it's ok," which I perfectly understand and respect.

Yeah that's pretty much what it is for me. I'm not attracted to other guys, and I don't think about other penises besides hers, because you know... it's hers. =)

 

[Zombie Badger]

I think you're taking this the wrong way. This joke had nothing to do with how transexuals see themselves. In fact, it had more to do with the guy who was sucking them off. Like I said there was nothing to imply that he had any emotional attachment to them and was in it just for the sex. Like Jim said in one of his videos, "This looks like a penis, it is shaped like a penis, it tastes like a penis so if I'm attracted to this, then maybe, just maybe, I might be attracted to penis." The transexual may see themselves as not male, but if the person having sex with them finds their penis attractive, especially when there's nothing to suggest they have any attachment tot the pre-op person then it's safe to say they may have some homosexual tendencies

I'm not trying to sound like a jackass here and I really do understand that transexuals get a lot of shit in this day and age, but I think you're overreacting to this.

The thing is, Yahtzee is saying that anyone who would have sex with a pre-op transgender person would be gay, which implies that any pre-op or non-op people cannot be considered in any way to be their desired gender. Now, the thing with the definition of gay and straight is that they are not based on genitalia, instead being based on gender. As strange as it may sound, being attracted to penis does not make you gay. Being attracted to people of the same gender (regardless of their genitals) does. This can be seen in that MtF transsexual porn is exclusively consumed by straight men (Details on FtM porn is hard to find and its existence is often debated). Gay men (such as myself) are not attracted to women, regardless of their genitalia, and MtF transgender individuals are not considered attractive to gay men due to them being distinctly female.

 

[Erttheking]

I think you're taking this the wrong way. This joke had nothing to do with how transexuals see themselves. In fact, it had more to do with the guy who was sucking them off. Like I said there was nothing to imply that he had any emotional attachment to them and was in it just for the sex. Like Jim said in one of his videos, "This looks like a penis, it is shaped like a penis, it tastes like a penis so if I'm attracted to this, then maybe, just maybe, I might be attracted to penis." The transexual may see themselves as not male, but if the person having sex with them finds their penis attractive, especially when there's nothing to suggest they have any attachment tot the pre-op person then it's safe to say they may have some homosexual tendencies

I'm not trying to sound like a jackass here and I really do understand that transexuals get a lot of shit in this day and age, but I think you're overreacting to this.

The thing is, Yahtzee is saying that anyone who would have sex with a pre-op transgender person would be gay, which implies that any pre-op or non-op people cannot be considered in any way to be their desired gender. Now, the thing with the definition of gay and straight is that they are not based on genitalia, instead being based on gender. As strange as it may sound, being attracted to penis does not make you gay. Being attracted to people of the same gender (regardless of their genitals) does. This can be seen in that MtF transsexual porn is exclusively consumed by straight men (Details on FtM porn is hard to find and its existence is often debated). Gay men (such as myself) are not attracted to women, regardless of their genitalia, and MtF transgender individuals are not considered attractive to gay men due to them being distinctly female.

I'm starting to get the feeling that when it comes to arguments, both you and I are just repeating ourselves with slightly different wording. Should we agree to disagree?