Zero Punctuation: Papers, Please and Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons

alright_television

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Jan 30, 2012
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Turbo_ski said:
alright_television said:
Man, the holocaust was such a chuckle, right, Escapist? I demand that you remove that joke too. It's offensive.
Jews don't get daily harassment and violence for being Jewish anymore and none the current generation experienced the holocaust. Transgender folk face constant harassment and violence everyday from people they don't even know. Transgender people are at higher risk of being killed than anyone else in the world. There has been a transgender woman murdered almost every week this past summer and two this very week in America. Keep in mind there aren't that many of us to begin with so that makes so many murders even more significant.

As a transsexual woman myself, I don't want my escapism from reality to also be spitting on me and my whole identity like the majority of people I meet in life do. So yes, for something that is supposed to be entertaining, I find it very personally offensive.
The funny thing about that is how it doesn't make the holocaust joke any less "offensive". That said, I'm sure the threat is very much real but I will always be an enemy of censorship. I firmly believe that turning any minority into a special case that you cannot under any circumstance treat like "normal people", that has to be pampered and protected, is hurting that minority and making acceptance harder to come by.

Here's the gist of it all: Take a joke like everyone else. You're not special.
 

mb16

make cupcakes not bombs
Sep 14, 2008
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Ok would someone like to point out the line where he victimizes transsexuals? Is saying "I had sex with a pre-op transsexual" offensive?
 

Simca

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mb16 said:
Ok would someone like to point out the line where he victimizes transsexuals? Is saying "I had sex with a pre-op transsexual" offensive?
No.

It was the analogy based around that sentence that implied that transwomen were not women that victimized transgender individuals.
The "No Trannies" sign is fine - that's A) Rules of a Soviet era communist country and B) Literally part of the game; you must turn away transsexual people.

Anyway, I think this topic (transgender/gender identity) is literally the single worst topic possible to ever discuss on a forum. The reason is that most people (99%+ of the population) has never even spent a full 10 seconds doing critical thinking on this subject, trying to put themselves in the shoes of the individual in question, done any research to understand how far transgender discrimination actually goes, what the causes/symptoms/solutions are, or even the different definitions of sex and gender.

Because of that, almost every single post on this topic will be bad. The bad posters in question probably aren't even bad people at all - they just have spent approximately three seconds thinking about the subject (and zero seconds researching it) and therefore will usually say something stupid even if they don't intend it.

It's the people who spend three seconds thinking about it and then cling heavily to that three-second-belief even after being presented with information to the contrary that are a massive annoyance in this threads, as well.
 

mb16

make cupcakes not bombs
Sep 14, 2008
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Simca said:
mb16 said:
Ok would someone like to point out the line where he victimizes transsexuals? Is saying "I had sex with a pre-op transsexual" offensive?
No.

It was the analogy based around that sentence that implied that transwomen were not women that victimized transsexuals.

The "No Trannies" sign is fine - that's A) Rules of a Soviet era communist country and B) Literally part of the game; you must turn away transsexual people.
[Note: normally I would be on the other side of this debate, so please don't presume me the homophobic dullard this may make me appear.]

Too be fair he did say pre-op, so regardless of how they see themselves, it is a human male body, and as homosexuality is the: "romantic attraction, sexual attraction or sexual behavior between members of the same sex or gender".

EDIT: note the use of the word "human" and not "person", as they are different things
 

alright_television

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Jan 30, 2012
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Turbo_ski said:
alright_television said:
Turbo_ski said:
alright_television said:
Man, the holocaust was such a chuckle, right, Escapist? I demand that you remove that joke too. It's offensive.
Jews don't get daily harassment and violence for being Jewish anymore and none the current generation experienced the holocaust. Transgender folk face constant harassment and violence everyday from people they don't even know. Transgender people are at higher risk of being killed than anyone else in the world. There has been a transgender woman murdered almost every week this past summer and two this very week in America. Keep in mind there aren't that many of us to begin with so that makes so many murders even more significant.

As a transsexual woman myself, I don't want my escapism from reality to also be spitting on me and my whole identity like the majority of people I meet in life do. So yes, for something that is supposed to be entertaining, I find it very personally offensive.
The funny thing about that is how it doesn't make the holocaust joke any less "offensive". That said, I'm sure the threat is very much real but I will always be an enemy of censorship. I firmly believe that turning any minority into a special case that you cannot under any circumstance treat like "normal people", that has to be pampered and protected, is hurting that minority and making acceptance harder to come by.

Here's the gist of it all: Take a joke like everyone else. You're not special.
Your argument is bullshit.
Duly noted.
 

Dante dynamite

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Mar 19, 2012
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What the hell is wrong with you people it wasn't a joke against transgendered people the joke basically is that the person does not want to seem gay so they "suck-off" pre-op transgendered women because they are considered women but they still have male sexual organs the person can preform sexual acts with a male organs wile trying not to come of as gay its not supposed to be offensive to anyone but regardless of all the controversial jokes he's made for some reason some people take this one as some sort of serious attack.
 

Strain42

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Mar 2, 2009
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Y'know, all this controversy aside (I mean coming to the point where Yahtzee actually went back and changed the dialogue, I think that's a first)

I thought this was one of the funnier episodes of ZP, and one of the very few where he A. Reviewed a game I hadn't heard of and B. Actually convinced me to buy it (I mean I haven't picked up Papers, Please yet, but I'm going to)
 

DrummerM

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Nov 24, 2008
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Shame Yahtzee had to change the joke. I do remember him saying once that political correctness driven censorship only serves to drive groups further apart, and that tolerance is being able to laugh at any joke.

Still, I trust it wasn't his choice and the video is still pretty good. Made me quite interested in Papers Please.
 

Dewrah

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Feb 26, 2011
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Alright, as much as I hate posting anything online (and even more-so in these flame-war threads), I somehow feel compelled to drop my two rivulets of water into this gaping ocean. Being a heterosexual white male in a first-world country with a middle-class job I find it hard to get offended by anything, less so when I don't even have a dog in the race as it is with the issue of being transgender in a world that can't accept homosexuality with anything approaching maturity. Therefore, I won't tell you not to be offended by a joke regarding something that clearly affects you. Doing so would reflect not only a brazen lack of empathy and understanding but also a callous sense of superiority that you can rest assured I could not begin to possess.

That being said, I don't believe I have ever seen anything even closely resembling distaste or disrespect by Yahtzee towards the LGBT (Lesbian-Gay-Bisexual-Transgender) community, but rather towards those who would look upon the same with disgust or bigotry. His self-effacement through use of homosexual reference always came with a tone resembling that of an eye-roll, mocking not the activity or behavior referenced but rather preemptively defacing the vitriolic comments and hate-filled responses typical of those who indeed possess the viewpoint of an immature, bigoted, and at best semi-literate troll.

In short (and to use that asinine phrase "TL:DR"), if we are going to profess offence toward anything in this most wretched hive of scum and villainy we call the internet, let us at least differentiate between those who truly believe in hatred and ignorance and those who mock them for our entertainment on internet videos. Long live Yahtzee, and long live Zero Punctuation.
 

Spearmaster

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Mar 10, 2010
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Based on what Ive heard I think ill pick up papers please, it sounds interesting, I was just wondering if staring at the papers and documents has messed with anyone's eyes due to the graphics or if its pretty easy on the eyes?

On a side note, self censorship is a shameful thing Yahtzee.
 

Mangod

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Feb 20, 2011
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I dunno, guys. Seems to me the "I'm not gay, I just suck of pre-op transexuals" is meant to be a "No, Except Yes"-joke*.

* http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoExceptYes

I will concede, however, after reading some of the arguments both for and against the joke, that it was probably better that he change it.
 

Calibanbutcher

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Nov 29, 2009
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Turbo_ski said:
alright_television said:
Man, the holocaust was such a chuckle, right, Escapist? I demand that you remove that joke too. It's offensive.
Jews don't get daily harassment and violence for being Jewish anymore and none the current generation experienced the holocaust. Transgender folk face constant harassment and violence everyday from people they don't even know. Transgender people are at higher risk of being killed than anyone else in the world. There has been a transgender woman murdered almost every week this past summer and two this very week in America. Keep in mind there aren't that many of us to begin with so that makes so many murders even more significant.

As a transsexual woman myself, I don't want my escapism from reality to also be spitting on me and my whole identity like the majority of people I meet in life do. So yes, for something that is supposed to be entertaining, I find it very personally offensive.

1. There are still people around that survived the concentration camps and the holocaust, though it is probably safe to assume that there are less holocaust survivors browsing the escapist than there are transsexuals.

2. Claiming that "jews don't get harassed anymore" is, quite frankly, bullshit. Maybe they don't get harassed where you're from but I had my fair share of conversations where people outright told me that they believed in a jewish conspiracy that runs the world from the shadows and that maybe, just maybe someone should do something about it, not that they themselves are racist or anything... (I am not jewish by the way, nor am I a transsexual)

Not directed at you, but at whomever it may concern.
4. Your medical diagnosis does not make you fucking special. It simply doesn't. Yes it sucks that you're facing more "challenges" and harassment than Citizen McWhiteGuy but if you want to be accepted as just another part of society, which afaik is the goal of the LGBT movement, you might be better off fighting on a different front, seeing as censoring a notoriously foul-mouthed internet-comedian known to be as offensive as it gets, might not bode terribly well with the rest of the audience and maybe cause some people to view your very much justified struggle in a bad light.

So someone made a fucking joke that offends your sensibilites, so fucking what? If someone truly decides to commit suicide because of this, if this is all it takes to drive them to jump of a cliff then they should have been in psychiatric care from the get-go.
Humour is not what drives others to violence.
Hatred, Ignorance and most importantly FEAR are what cause violence and harassment.

Humour is there to build bridges and making fun of something can help raise awareness of a subject, further the understanding of said subject and if we all were to laugh together, we'd be a lot better of and I personally believe that there shouldn't be a subject, a group or anything that is off-limits when it comes to being made fun off, as long as the humour is not vitrolic and based on slurs and hatred.
 

Helmholtz Watson

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Nov 7, 2011
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thaluikhain said:
Got a laugh out of "Ironically", but then that was followed up almost immediately by a bad transgender joke.
Yeah, jokes about the holocaust are fine but heaven forbid that transsexuals get a joke made about them.
 

Helmholtz Watson

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Nov 7, 2011
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Turbo_ski said:
alright_television said:
Man, the holocaust was such a chuckle, right, Escapist? I demand that you remove that joke too. It's offensive.
Jews don't get daily harassment and violence for being Jewish anymore and none the current generation experienced the holocaust. Transgender folk face constant harassment and violence everyday from people they don't even know. Transgender people are at higher risk of being killed than anyone else in the world. There has been a transgender woman murdered almost every week this past summer and two this very week in America. Keep in mind there aren't that many of us to begin with so that makes so many murders even more significant.

As a transsexual woman myself, I don't want my escapism from reality to also be spitting on me and my whole identity like the majority of people I meet in life do. So yes, for something that is supposed to be entertaining, I find it very personally offensive.
What fanatasy land are you living in where Jews all life care free lives? Instead of spewing ignorance about what my people face, why don't you educate yourself [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_antisemitism]?

I'll help you out by giving you just a few modern examples....

Violence against Jews for having the audacity to not immediately denounce Israel [http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/mar/29/hate-crimes-force-jews-out-of-malmo/?page=all], followed by the mayor of the town telling Jews that its their own fault [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Sweden#Ilmar_Reepalu].

A recent report on the state of affairs for Jews in Sweden [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISBRtMIFWgE].

Violence against Jews in France [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toulouse_and_Montauban_shootings]

and the ever classy examples of Arabic [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomorrow%27s_Pioneers] tv shows [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzSkoK4sIJ4].
 

l3o2828

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Mar 24, 2011
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I'm not going to comment on what i think about the transexual joke, but i do believe Yahtzee's apology was quite enough, and changing the line up and virtually censoring it , even if yahtzee does indeed regret it just comes up as incredibly 'Politically correct' for me.
There was no biggotry in Yahtzee's comment, no real hate for transexuals, i mean, i respect your right to feel offended at everything, but this just looks like a really blown out of proportion case, which i hope doesn't happen again.

Nice review.
 

IceForce

Is this memes?
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Dec 11, 2012
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GildaTheGriffin said:
How come the video thumbnail is like a broken picture symbol?
Because they changed the thumbnail.

The old thumbnail had a sign which read "No trannies". This apparently offended people, so it was changed.
 

IceForce

Is this memes?
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Dec 11, 2012
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anthony87 said:
They seriously changed what he said in the video?

Escapist...I am disappoint.
You gotta admit though, the edit was pretty seamless.

If I hadn't read this thread, and no one told me it'd been changed, I would never have noticed.
 

Blackpapa

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May 26, 2010
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Yahtzee is offensive humor game journalism. Hurtful and over-the-line jokes are what set zero punctuation apart from the other thousand indie journalist segments and in fact, the reason why I watch it over all the rest. No great tragedy has happened either way - but Escapist getting pressured into editing the joke will have a chilling effect on Yahtzee's humor, taking away part of what makes this series entertaining, diluting the ZP brand.

The joke, in it's original form, was funny.

I do not approve of having lists of people who you can't laugh at - if only because it implies that there's a second list list of people one is permitted to laugh at.

Having one's dick cut off and being injected with hormones, I imagine, is pretty traumatic, so I'd attribute the disproportionate reaction to that, rather than the joke being outside what I've come to expect from ZP.