Zero Punctuation: Spec Ops: The Line
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
- Start date
played it
and yes: it really does try to tug at your heartstrings
however - it does have a big flaw in trying to do this, as Yahtzee sort of pointed out: you're killing american soldiers...
you're meant to feel bad about that
this assumes that you will feel bad about that
I'm guessing that this logic is based on the idea that americans will play the game and feel bad about it
I'm not american
To this end it was kind of hard to suspend my disbelief. Your player character only tries ONCE to make friendly contact with the american soldiers you moments later end up shooting.
I honestly can't imagine that with a radio-wiz in your party that 'you' don't try to make radio contact a little more often - trying to explain why you're there and what you're there to do, even after the first SNAFU where the american soldiers end up opening fire on you, since they appear to think you're insurgents.
...basically, I think that diplomacy is thrown out the window fairly quickly - but maybe that's just because I'm not american that I think that's a bad thing? who knows
still, the 'bad thing' that Yahtzee mentioned did make me feel bad - it did - although I'd honestly liked if there was an option to bug out and end the game right then and there. Sure, it'd be screaming at you to continue, but I'd honestly liked if there was that choice...
and that's another gripe I have with this game: Yahtzee notes this in his observation that you kinda end up just being 'along for the ride' while watching the 'hero' going more and more nuts... and that might have been an intentional game design feature, but I would still have liked a few more options here and there.
especially considering the final plot twist reveal (which I won't reveal here...) - since that should have made the american soldiers a lot more open to a 'friendly' scouting party, instead of just mindlessly shooting at them at every turn
and yes: it really does try to tug at your heartstrings
however - it does have a big flaw in trying to do this, as Yahtzee sort of pointed out: you're killing american soldiers...
you're meant to feel bad about that
this assumes that you will feel bad about that
I'm guessing that this logic is based on the idea that americans will play the game and feel bad about it
I'm not american
To this end it was kind of hard to suspend my disbelief. Your player character only tries ONCE to make friendly contact with the american soldiers you moments later end up shooting.
I honestly can't imagine that with a radio-wiz in your party that 'you' don't try to make radio contact a little more often - trying to explain why you're there and what you're there to do, even after the first SNAFU where the american soldiers end up opening fire on you, since they appear to think you're insurgents.
...basically, I think that diplomacy is thrown out the window fairly quickly - but maybe that's just because I'm not american that I think that's a bad thing? who knows
still, the 'bad thing' that Yahtzee mentioned did make me feel bad - it did - although I'd honestly liked if there was an option to bug out and end the game right then and there. Sure, it'd be screaming at you to continue, but I'd honestly liked if there was that choice...
and that's another gripe I have with this game: Yahtzee notes this in his observation that you kinda end up just being 'along for the ride' while watching the 'hero' going more and more nuts... and that might have been an intentional game design feature, but I would still have liked a few more options here and there.
especially considering the final plot twist reveal (which I won't reveal here...) - since that should have made the american soldiers a lot more open to a 'friendly' scouting party, instead of just mindlessly shooting at them at every turn
Just finished it. Kinda stunned. Not all things worked together but it basically took BioShock 1's story and made it better by blurring the lines between choice and illusion of choice.
Too bad the third person cover based shooting is really dull and generic.
Too bad the third person cover based shooting is really dull and generic.
I must say the game is so grim it made me laugh at times. Like, when the demotivational loading screen just said "This is all your fault". Thanks for pointing that out, captain hindsight...
Also I thought he would have stressed the fact that this game is a little like Final Fantasy - a movie with places to run around inbetween. This game also is so linear it seals off areas you've been in just when you stepped into the next one. This often makes weapons and crates disappear so sometimes you are stuck with a higly impractical gun for the job that is low on ammo.
But yeah, the story makes it all worthwhile.
Do you feel like a hero yet?
Also I thought he would have stressed the fact that this game is a little like Final Fantasy - a movie with places to run around inbetween. This game also is so linear it seals off areas you've been in just when you stepped into the next one. This often makes weapons and crates disappear so sometimes you are stuck with a higly impractical gun for the job that is low on ammo.
But yeah, the story makes it all worthwhile.
Do you feel like a hero yet?
after seeing this review i when out and got the game
having now played it have to agree with every word of the review, it is refreshing to see a game attempt to put together a story of this nature and for it not to have just been another fly the flag for the glory of america shooters
making not only the main enemy american but also giving just reasoning at the time for it being so, truly created a sensation of moral rightness witch was snached away at every turn
also booooo to the haters cos well why not
Glory be the Yahtzee
having now played it have to agree with every word of the review, it is refreshing to see a game attempt to put together a story of this nature and for it not to have just been another fly the flag for the glory of america shooters
making not only the main enemy american but also giving just reasoning at the time for it being so, truly created a sensation of moral rightness witch was snached away at every turn
also booooo to the haters cos well why not
Glory be the Yahtzee
As in being dark for FPS standards. Nothing can really top 40k, but you get the idea that FPS nowadays are not the clean procedural type Spec Ops teams from the original Rainbow Six series by Red Storm but instead HARD MEN MAKING HARD DECISIONS!kouriichi said:
Spec Ops the Line is merely the first of many upcoming games to be that type of game. Modern Warfare merely paved the wave for it.
So I'm guessing you're one of those morons who think that 9/11 was an inside job and that our military should be ashamed for a proper response to a wanton slaughter of innocents?In Search of Username said:
That's what our military's doing. America and the West stood by and let the world turn itself pre-9/11, and it was that day that showed us the true threat terrorism poses to us.
Those men and women are out there risking their lives so you don't have to. That, at least, warrants some sort of respect.
A very good review, I'm glad that there are still some games out there that understand the importance of a good story!
Some interesting behind-the-scenes info about the game (don't know if it's been mentioned or not):
http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/07/20/the-story-secrets-of-spec-ops-the-line
I can say that I really liked the game. I can't remember the last time a video game made me think about it for more than a week after I finished it. The likely cause (at least for me) are the cynical 4'th wall breaking loading screens in the latter half of the game. I didn't get them immediately - I originally thought they're meant for Walker, but they're actually meant for you: the creature of flesh and bone that routinely kills pixels for fun.
"To kill for yourself is murder. To kill for your government is heroic. To kill for entertainment is harmless."
I can understand that some people will claim pretentiousness and it's true, the line is thin. While the game may or may not fail in other departments, I believe that the message works. If something can make you question your day-to-day pass time, even for a minute, it should be lauded.
As C. Wright Mills said, we spend out lives as cheerful robots. For stimulus A you get response B: character X kicks the dog - you hate character X, character Y says a tired joke - you must laugh, everybody laughs. It's good to take a step back and observe the situation from outside, you might gain some insight, you might learn something about yourself.
Granted, I'm not talking entirely about Spec Ops, I don't believe it's a masterpiece since it doesn't truly innovate gaming, but it does challenge established expectations. When that happens some people will like it, some won't this thread proves it. All I can say is that I laud developer Yager Development and publisher 2K Games for making this game a reality.
I don't generally post a lot because I'm lazy and I tend to ramble. The fact that I took my time to write this is my personal testament to the quality of Spec Ops: The Line.
Edit:
This is a really interesting angle: http://i.imgur.com/cLtJN.png (obvious spoilers)
Makes sense since there are two different factions in the multiplayer.
http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/07/20/the-story-secrets-of-spec-ops-the-line
I think I remember the billboard with Konrad's face on it and the fact that the picture changes after a turn, but it didn't click at the time.
The thing with the fade-ins is another really interesting bit. So the fade-to-blacks are normal transitions and the fade-to-whites denote hallucinations/ Walker lying to himself. Also, whenever you die you get a fade-to-white (at least in the second part of the game) and Walker shakes his head, rubbing his eyes like he just had a vision.
I also like the fact that it's debatable weather the last part of the game, after the helicopter crash, is real or a complete fabrication/ Walker's personal hell (the guy even breaks the 4'th wall pointing out that the scene was already played out in the beginning of the game).
The thing with the fade-ins is another really interesting bit. So the fade-to-blacks are normal transitions and the fade-to-whites denote hallucinations/ Walker lying to himself. Also, whenever you die you get a fade-to-white (at least in the second part of the game) and Walker shakes his head, rubbing his eyes like he just had a vision.
I also like the fact that it's debatable weather the last part of the game, after the helicopter crash, is real or a complete fabrication/ Walker's personal hell (the guy even breaks the 4'th wall pointing out that the scene was already played out in the beginning of the game).
I can say that I really liked the game. I can't remember the last time a video game made me think about it for more than a week after I finished it. The likely cause (at least for me) are the cynical 4'th wall breaking loading screens in the latter half of the game. I didn't get them immediately - I originally thought they're meant for Walker, but they're actually meant for you: the creature of flesh and bone that routinely kills pixels for fun.
"To kill for yourself is murder. To kill for your government is heroic. To kill for entertainment is harmless."
I can understand that some people will claim pretentiousness and it's true, the line is thin. While the game may or may not fail in other departments, I believe that the message works. If something can make you question your day-to-day pass time, even for a minute, it should be lauded.
As C. Wright Mills said, we spend out lives as cheerful robots. For stimulus A you get response B: character X kicks the dog - you hate character X, character Y says a tired joke - you must laugh, everybody laughs. It's good to take a step back and observe the situation from outside, you might gain some insight, you might learn something about yourself.
Granted, I'm not talking entirely about Spec Ops, I don't believe it's a masterpiece since it doesn't truly innovate gaming, but it does challenge established expectations. When that happens some people will like it, some won't this thread proves it. All I can say is that I laud developer Yager Development and publisher 2K Games for making this game a reality.
I don't generally post a lot because I'm lazy and I tend to ramble. The fact that I took my time to write this is my personal testament to the quality of Spec Ops: The Line.
Edit:
This is a really interesting angle: http://i.imgur.com/cLtJN.png (obvious spoilers)
Makes sense since there are two different factions in the multiplayer.
.Dutch 924 said:
That was the point. It reminded me of Cabin in the Woods in relation to the genre its supposed to represent.
A refreshing change from killing Russians and Arabs, it was nice to shave heads off of US soldiers. I can't remember the last time when I last heard American battle chatter like this coming from the enemy.
For what that's worth though, it's not an enjoyable ride overall.
The storyline is excellent yet flawed. The game fails to make the player truly responsible for their actions. The grand moment in the game comes when the player unwittingly shells a bunch of civilians - yet there's no choice to do otherwise. That makes this critical point of the game much less relevant - it's not a bad decision that forces you to accept the consequences, it's a stop on a linear path which you must complete.
The other critical moment you're faced with the decision of gunning down civilians. I gleefully took the opportunity the moment the cutscene ended but was disappointed to see only a passing mention to it later on.
The whole force of the storyline is therefore linear, with meaningless illusions of choice. That creates a dissonance between the player and the player character.
The storyline goes beyond a classic narrative though and you can hear the character's voices get increasingly unhinged as the game goes on. Their gear progressively turns from brand new into tatters and even the way they move shows their progressive mental and physical exhaustion. Even the loading screens and tips get more and more surreal and disturbing. The game manages to build a great, strong and dense atmosphere.
Yet despite my strong anti-american sentiment the game manages to make killing US soldiers not fun. The implementation of everything in the game stands in stark contrast to the storyline. Combat is not fun (though I've never been a fan of 3rd person cover-based shooting) - and that's the greatest problem with the game. It neither makes killing Americans fun in the satisfying arcade-y way nor does it even make an attempt at being a tactical game. Stuck in the generic easy grayzone the combat just made me want to get it over with and get to the next cutscene faster.
For what that's worth though, it's not an enjoyable ride overall.
The storyline is excellent yet flawed. The game fails to make the player truly responsible for their actions. The grand moment in the game comes when the player unwittingly shells a bunch of civilians - yet there's no choice to do otherwise. That makes this critical point of the game much less relevant - it's not a bad decision that forces you to accept the consequences, it's a stop on a linear path which you must complete.
The other critical moment you're faced with the decision of gunning down civilians. I gleefully took the opportunity the moment the cutscene ended but was disappointed to see only a passing mention to it later on.
The whole force of the storyline is therefore linear, with meaningless illusions of choice. That creates a dissonance between the player and the player character.
The storyline goes beyond a classic narrative though and you can hear the character's voices get increasingly unhinged as the game goes on. Their gear progressively turns from brand new into tatters and even the way they move shows their progressive mental and physical exhaustion. Even the loading screens and tips get more and more surreal and disturbing. The game manages to build a great, strong and dense atmosphere.
Yet despite my strong anti-american sentiment the game manages to make killing US soldiers not fun. The implementation of everything in the game stands in stark contrast to the storyline. Combat is not fun (though I've never been a fan of 3rd person cover-based shooting) - and that's the greatest problem with the game. It neither makes killing Americans fun in the satisfying arcade-y way nor does it even make an attempt at being a tactical game. Stuck in the generic easy grayzone the combat just made me want to get it over with and get to the next cutscene faster.
It's a strawman that I often find to be accurate amongst those who bash on our military and scoff at the notion that their service to our country's servicemen deserves respect.Reginald said:
Spec Ops still has an excellent story, don't get me wrong. Fog of war is one thing that needs to be addressed at times in regards to war.
Well, fuck me sideways. I had some interest in the game when I first saw the trailer, but I honestly wouldn't have gotten the game if not for this review. And Christ, am I glad that I did.Yahtzee Croshaw said:
I'm coming into the endgame, and I've never seen a game that so amazingly shows a party's fall from grace like Spec Ops does. The attention to detail is astonishing: I first noticed it when I realized that so much of the 'Kill the guy with the X by the Y' dialogue was ludicrously accurate and often times exclusive to one area. In other words, combat dialogue was recorded individually for most firefights. You'll never heard 'Take that guy out' because the main characters are supposed to be professional soldiers and that would be vague and unhelpful.
Similarly, the wear and tear on each man is so gradual and well-rendered that you could make a flipbook of the battledamage as the game goes on and there would never be a point where it was abruptly tacked on without reason. It even extends beyond the character models themselves: the protagonists sound like they're getting worn down as you go along. At the start of the game, an order exchange might sound like this:
By three-quarters of the way through, it sounds more like this:
These guys started off with an amazing group dynamic. They functioned as a team, and they interacted when not in combat as friends. But as the game goes on, that friendship is increasingly strained. There are even a few moments where it seems like it's at its breaking point, but the third member acts as a voice of reason and they keep moving. It's those moments becoming increasingly rare (when someone manages to diffuse the situation without requiring enemy troops arriving) that makes the group's downfall so tragic.
And Jesus tapdancing Christ, if you've played the game, you know what scene Yahtzee is talking about when he mentions the one that made him feel awful. If you only think you know, then keep playing. You probably haven't gotten to the scene yet. The dev team even said that it was supposed to be reminiscent of the memorable AC-130 sequence from Modern Warfare. Think about that if you've played it.
I'm worried already because you've kicked things off with a racial slur within ten words of the start of your post. Yes, 'limey' is a racial slur. White people just aren't allowed to be upset by white-slurs, I guess.SickBritKid said:
I'm not really sure where he shat on the military during his review. He said he didn't like the whole buddy-cop feeling that a lot of squad-based war shooters do when trying to evoke a 'realistic' feeling in warfare.SickBritKid said:
Alright, rather than going more in-depth than I'd normally, I'm going to ask a simple question:SickBritKid said:
Have you played the game?
For one, I use "limey" affectionately, and not at all derogatorily toward Brits. I'm descended from Britain(specifically Scotland and Wales as well as Ireland, though that's a different country) and I love the country.Char-Nobyl said:
And it's not him directly shitting on the military in this one so much as how he's done so in past reviews of similar shooters.
And yes, I've play Spec Ops. It's narrative is beautiful, in a very macabre way. The Fog of War and other such things, however, I tend to find being blamed upon military men and women more often than not, despite it being call "The Fog of War" for a reason.