Zero Punctuation: Tomb Raider: Underworld

Yahtzee Croshaw

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Aug 8, 2007
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Tomb Raider: Underworld

This week Zero Punctuation gives the old girl another chance and reviews Tomb Raider: Underworld.

Watch Video
 

Vlane

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Sep 14, 2008
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Pretty good review to be honest but I still don't understand the "Lara == Bong" comparison.
 

NewClassic_v1legacy

Bringer of Words
Jul 30, 2008
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Zero Incentive - A NewClassic Rant on Zero Punctuation.

Foreword and Disclaimer:
I would like to preface this rant to say, "ZP's still good." This rant will go into parts of the video series I do not like. It can, and likely will, sound critical. Though, once again, I do not think Zero Punctuation is outright bad. This is not intended to start a fight, but rather be a stating of opinion, or possibly a discussion.


Like Lara, one thing Yahtzee seems to be showing signs of is simply tiring out. He's becoming old, not particularly interesting, and going towards stale in terms of humor and style. Once upon a time, Zero Punctuation was a series that was more about game reviews with good humor and an active style that encouraged the viewer to be a part of the experience, laugh, and actually learn something about a game.

More lately, not too unlike G4, Yahtzee's been slowing down, and now he's leaning a lot more on humor instead of game-content. Although this doesn't make it bad, it does make something of it that it is not. For the most part, Zero Punctuation is no longer about game reviews, and is now about gaming-related humor.

<img_inline caption="Simply put, Zero Punctuation
has become something it's not." align="left">http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a395/NewClassic/Forum%20Stuff/spy.jpg
Almost like it's a new show disguised in an old shell, I can't help but feel like Zero Punctuation is losing some of what made it better once upon a time. The loss of the clever song-choices at the beginning and end of the videos, the clever intelligent humor woven into the discussion of the games themselves, and actual review segments that really told the player more about the game than simply pointing out a series of flaws and making jokes about them. (Don't get me wrong, this was always present. But it feels stronger now, as if this is the main focus.)

I'd like to point out here that I'm not calling this video series bad. What it is has simply become is something different. As much as I'd like to encourage the video series, I'd rather say take a step back and look into it's roots. Some of the things that made Zero Punctuation so clever is rapidly becoming a thing of the past. Maybe I'm speaking only to myself here, but I'd like to think the series could return to what made it so strong to begin with.

Now, I'd like to take a moment to perhaps stave off some dissent before it gets to a point of argument rather than debate. I'm not here to attack Yahtzee. I feel like he could be doing better with this video series than he currently is, and I see no harm in saying as much.

Though if I were, I hope we would all understand how little it would accomplish. Small time curmudgeons like me won't reduce Yahtzee to tears, considering how little he cares about us. As small-time viewers , we're more here to provide traffic and watch something we enjoy, with the commentary being nothing other than banal time-wasting. Hopefully, we can get some discussion as to the very limited review-content of Yahtzee's latest ZP videos.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a395/NewClassic/Forum%20Stuff/washedup.jpg
To be honest, I'm not entirely sure what I'm accomplishing here. Fans of the series will, especially those currently watching each video with bated breath, are likely going to continue to be fans of the series regardless of what I have to say. Ultimately, though, my opinions are what individualizes me, as well as what is important. Like all comments on these videos, it really shows the power of opinions as a commentative medium. (Admittedly, a lot of these opinions completely mirror Yahtzee's, regardless of game or opinion.)

What would not surprise me is if this comment is received poorly. Maybe it's my cynical side talking, but I'd hardly believe that many people will appreciate this opinion; even only because it disagrees with Yahtzee. I've never really understood the almost crusader-like fervor that fans of the series attracts, and I find that no matter how often I watch the videos, there's always something about Yahtzee's opinion that I disagree with.

Not that small time critics like myself do well making posts like these, as they often wind up dead, or carrying on flame wars. And if you wanted my honest opinion, I'd suggest how little all of it matters because I don't think this series will just turn over and die. A lot of it is because that the series still has merit on its own. "Mankind Has Yet to Recognize My Genius" is and will always be a misnomer, because the term genius has so much of a subjective slant to it.

Admittedly, this video seems to like it's using a lot of "too obvious" jokes, and he manages to completely dodge the game review. Entirely. (Okay, maybe he touches on it a little, but for the length of the video, it's largely sketch comedy.)

Though he seems to hate the series, and yet jumps on this one simply because... I'm rather confused by the entire experience. Why? It doesn't make sense to me.

By and large, I'm not particularly pleased. I feel like this series could really return to how clever it once was, and recover that balance of subtlety and blatant humor that it once had. As time progresses, though, I feel like I'm only fooling myself into thinking that it could ever be that way ever again.

Maybe I'm just some cranky old gamer looking at something, and wishing it were more like something he enjoyed some time ago, instead of just occasionally alluding to it like it is now.

(Although, bonus points for the Unskippable ad at the end of the video. Good series, although it already has plenty of viewers.)
 

danebot

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Feb 16, 2008
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ZP is fairly entertaining, but I don't understand why everything else on the escapist seems so unbearably unfunny.

EDIT: Are you kidding me up there with that copy-pasted text wall?

You have something you desperately want people to read, and yet you say nothing. You perched like a sniper waiting for the video to be released so you could soapbox in the first few posts on a site that is full of peple who enjoy the videos. The worst part is, you think it's worth reading, and that you're brillant! Thanks for your comments, but next time I want that kind of counter-opinion in my house I'll just invite a Jehova's witness in for coffee.
 

whyarecarrots

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Nov 19, 2008
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edit: Since apparently this needs some clarification, I shall attempt to make it clear:
THIS POST REFERS TO THE FIRST REPLY FOR WHICH SOMEONE WAS BANNED. YOU WILL BE ABLE TO SEE THIS POST BY CLICKING THE 'VIEW POST' BUTTON UNDER THE FIRST REPLY.
Thank you for your time.

Ahh at last, a truly moronic post deserving of a ban; something we can be truly and unamobiuosly satisfied with and not bod down the thread with discussions of why he was banned.

Anyway, excellent video Yahtzee; sounded like you were enjoying yourself almost as much as in the sonic review ;)

It also contained possibly the best analogy I've ever heard:
"Innovation is to this series what cheeseburgers are to a lactose intolerant Hindu"
 

Vlane

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Sep 14, 2008
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NewClassic said:
That's a nice (and for the most part true) rant but why do you post this in a ZP thread? Why don't you make your own thread?
 

PedroSteckecilo

Mexican Fugitive
Feb 7, 2008
6,732
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Huh, I was just going to put in my 2 cents and laugh at the slough of "firsties" being banned, and I get a New Classic rant...

Evidently I need to check the ZP comment threads more often.
 

Sabbad

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Apr 9, 2008
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Lol, what do we think - did NewClassic really write that in six minutes, or did he prepare it in advance, deciding he was going to dislike the video review before he saw it anyway?

EDIT - Eh, his point is articulately enough presented though.
 

Jursa

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Oct 11, 2008
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Wonderful work, simply wonderful, I never really thought that lara is well... evil, but now you make a good point.
 

greyhairdgamer

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Mar 12, 2008
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probably the funniest review you've done in a while Yahtzee, nice work.
when are you going to take rip into GOW2 then? i'd like to hear your unique point of view on that game?
 

Grenbyron

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Dec 31, 2008
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I am proud to say I have never played any of the Tomb Raiders. I have much better games available to abuse me.
 

HardRockSamurai

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May 28, 2008
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I liked this review, although I do think Yahtzee should've poked more fun at the gameplay, not the story. Everyone already knows that the stories in Tomb Raider games are all shit; it's just common sense. No need to point that out when you could be making fun of the GOD AWFUL repetitive environments and retarded enemy AI.

Also, I don't see why he keeps going on about Lara's rack; I thought they looked considerably smaller in this game (mind you, I had to stare at the box art for HOURS to figure that out.)
 

ckam

Make America Great For Who?
Oct 8, 2008
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They still have a crappy camera, after 9 games where everyone complained about it in every single game. Sigh, I have no hope for those bastards.
 

Alexious

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Oct 15, 2008
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*sigh* I wish some people would stop complaining about if his reviews are in depth or not, and just love them for what they are - a bit of fun ^^
 

darmey

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Sep 10, 2008
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Is that unfunny guy gonna be on the end of EVERY video now? He reminds me of my little brother.
 

MonkeyPunch

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Feb 20, 2008
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Excellent episode!
I'm still wiping my tears from:
"Innovation to this series, is what cheeseburgers are to a lactose intolerant Hindu" xD
"...because the camera is being opperated by a eight year old autistic child, hooked up to an I.V. filled with sherbet..."

classic!
 

PedroSteckecilo

Mexican Fugitive
Feb 7, 2008
6,732
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Sabbad said:
Lol, what do we think - did NewClassic really write that in six minutes, or did he prepare it in advance, deciding he was going to dislike the video review before he saw it anyway?
He's probably had an "Anti ZP" writeup in the works for awhile and decided to edit, then spring it upon the unsuspecting public when he felt it was most appropriate.
 

Baby Tea

Just Ask Frankie
Sep 18, 2008
4,687
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Oh NewClassic...I hope you don't get banned.

On topic: I was wondered, about half-way through, when he was going to talk about the actualy gameplay...but then Yahtzee made the very good point: It's a Tombraider game. They are all the same with minor upgrades. At that point, I could chuckle and enjoy the rest.
Well done.
 

BrightDeathFriend

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Dec 31, 2008
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Nice one Yahtsee! I like how you think that a game should have more value to it than just a game character's breasts! ...game devs obviously think that people are morons if a woman with big boobs who gets wet and dirty would make people buy a game!
 

Top Dollar

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Jan 3, 2009
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NewClassic said:
"Simply put, Zero Punctuation
has become something it's not."
Hurrr what does that even mean?

Good review, even though everyone probably could have guessed it would just be a badly disguised clone of the previous titles.
TITles.
Heh heh.
 

Ryuzaki

The Public Face of L
Nov 5, 2008
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Nice video Yahtzee. Some game series need to be dropped eventually, Sonic comes to mind and this may be another candidate.
 

hardwarexpert

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Jan 14, 2009
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Been a long time viewer of Zero Punctuation and have never signed up to the Escapist until he mentioned Bristols!

I am from Bristol (UK) and most women born here have big breasts so I couldn't stop laughing when he referred to Lara's breasts as Bristols.

Good work as always Yahtzee!
 

panagram

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Oct 19, 2008
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Vlane said:
Pretty good review to be honest but I still don't understand the "Lara == Bong" comparison.
I think it was meant to assume that the bulge at the bottom of the bong was her ass, but it would've looked like a really weird bong if it was just flat one side:p
 

The_Unknown_guy

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Jan 14, 2009
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Good video, though not as funny as the older ones, I still agreed with yahtzee. All the gameplay is copied from earlier games (thankfully i never bought any of them but still borrowed them from a friend). All the stuff you're told to do makes no sense. I can't believe people are giving out about the fact that Yahtzee's videos aren't as funny as they used to be. Despite the fact that he says he's a reviewer, he's also a comedian and all great comedians run low on material from time to time. (Not that this video is the case, because I found it pretty funny)
 

curlycrouton

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Jul 13, 2008
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NewClassic said:

Zero Incentive - A NewClassic Rant on Zero Punctuation.

Like Lara, one thing Yahtzee seems to be showing signs of is just simply tiring out. Old, not particularly interesting, and going towards stale in terms of humor and style. Once upon a time, Zero Punctuation was a series that was more about game reviews with good humor and an active style the encouraged the viewer to be a part of the experience, laugh, and actually learn something about a game.

More lately, not too unlike G4, Yahtzee's been slowing down, and now he's leaning a lot more on humor instead of on game-content. Although this doesn't make it bad, it does make something of it that it is now. By and at large, Zero Punctuation is no longer about game reviews, and is now about gaming-related humor.

<img_inline caption="Simply put, Zero Punctuation
has become something it's not." align="left">http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a395/NewClassic/Forum%20Stuff/spy.jpg
Almost like it's a new show disguised in an old shell, I can't help but feel like Zero Punctuation is losing some of what made it better once upon a time. The loss of the clever song-choices at the beginning and end of the videos, the clever intelligent humor woven into the discussion of the games themselves, and actual review segments that really told the player more about the game than simply pointing out a series of flaws and making jokes about them. (Don't get me wrong, this was always present. But it feels stronger now, as if this is the main focus.)

I'd like to point out here that I'm not calling this video series bad. What it is has simply become something different. As much as I'd like to encourage the video series, I'd rather say take a step back and look into it's roots. Some of the things that made Zero Punctuation so clever is rapidly becoming a thing of the past. Maybe I'm speaking only to myself here, but I'd like to think the series could return to what made it so strong to begin with.

Now, I'd like to take a moment to perhaps stave off some dissent before it gets to a point of argument rather than debate. I'm not here to attack Yahtzee. I feel like he could be doing better with this video series than he currently is, and I see no harm in saying as much.

Though if I were, I hope we would all understand how little it would accomplish. Small time curmudgeons like me won't reduce Yahtzee to tears, considering how little he cares about us. As small-time viewers , we're more here to provide traffic and watch something we enjoy, with the commentary being nothing other than banal time-wasting, and hopefully some discussion as to the very limited review-content of Yahtzee's latest ZP video.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a395/NewClassic/Forum%20Stuff/washedup.jpg
To be honest, I'm not entirely sure what I'm accomplishing here. Fans of the series will, especially those currently watching each video with bated breath, are likely going to continue to be fans of the series regardless of what I have to say. Ultimately, though, my opinions are what individualizes me, as well as what is important. Like all comments on these videos, it really shows the power of opinions as a commentative medium. (Admittedly, a lot of opinions completely mirror Yahtzee's, regardless of game or opinion.)

What would not surprise me is if this comment is received poorly. Maybe it's my cynical side talking, but I'd hardly believe that many people will appreciate this opinion; even only because it disagrees with Yahtzee. I've never really understood the almost crusader-like fervor that fans of the series attracts, and I find that no matter how often I watch the videos, there's always something about Yahtzee's opinion that I disagree with.

Not that small time critics like myself do well making posts like these, as they often wind up dead, or carrying on flame wars. And if you wanted my honest opinion, I'd suggest how little all of it matters because I don't think this series will just turn over and die. A lot of it is because that the series still has merit on its own. "Mankind Has Yet to Recognize My Genius" is and will always be a misnomer, because the term genius has so much of a subjective slant to it.

Admittedly, this video seems to like it's using a lot of "too obvious" jokes, and he manages to completely dodge the game review. Entirely. (Okay, maybe he touches on it a little, but for the length of the video, it's largely sketch comedy.)

Though he seems to hate the series, and yet jumps on this one simply because... I'm rather confused by the entire experience. Why? It doesn't make sense to me.

By and at large, I'm not particularly pleased. I feel like this series could really return to how clever it once was, and recover that balance of subtlety and blatant humor that it once had. As time progresses, though, I feel like I'm only fooling myself into thinking that it could ever be that way ever again.

Maybe I'm just some cranky old gamer looking at something, and wishing it were more like something he enjoyed some time ago, instead of just occasionally alluding to it like it is now.

(Although, bonus points for the Unskippable ad at the end of the video. Good series, although it already has plenty of viewers.)
.

I've been thinking most of what you've just said for a long time, I just haven't been able to put it into words. Thank you for consolidating my opinion, and for perhaps enlightening one or more Zero Punctuation fanatics who would otherwise be stuck in a never-ending loop of blind submission to Mr. Croshaw.
 

jhonka

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Dec 11, 2008
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I have to agree with newclassic. Yahzee is slowing down. Atleast the newest review felt more like an angry rant instead of "hilariously cutting". It hardly had anything to do with the game except for the 8 second line about someone being sort of dead or something. After watching I did not know what's wrong with it, except that obsessively competitive bordeline psychopath character is not likable and her adversary is or atleast is not as much unlikable. If game needs to be verbally assassinated(they mostly do) it should be like yahzee used to do it, piss-your-pants funny!

First miss, that's my opinion!
 

TheGhostOfSin

Terrible, Terrible Damage.
May 21, 2008
997
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Sabbad said:
Lol, what do we think - did NewClassic really write that in six minutes, or did he prepare it in advance, deciding he was going to dislike the video review before he saw it anyway?
Knowing NC like I do, I'd say it is entirely possible for him to have wrote that in 6 minutes, he has a monitor for a head.
101998 said:
Yahtzee is the Jezza of Video Games.
Jezza is the Jezza of Video Games. http://www.australiangamer.com/news/1510_jeremy_clarkson_declares_videogames_the_answer_to_world_peace.html

Although not as 'laugh out loud' as ZP used to be, I still enjoy it more so than most things I watch.
 

Falien

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Nov 21, 2008
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Though I agree with some of the points NewClassic makes (the music clips before/after the video did add a lot), I have to disagree on the point about imbalance between review and jokes. I have played most of the games reviewed in Zero Punctuation and I'd say that, more often than not, Yahtzee presents a quite complete picture of the game. What's more, he usually manages to emphasize on points that others would miss - I found myself saying "Good thing someone else noticed!" more than once.

In conclusion, I'd say that if there is an overly-big reliance on jokes lately, it is more of the games' fault for not being good enough, which could be the start of a (long) discussion on whether Yahtzee deliberately reviews bad games, or are bad games the norm nowadays and it's not his fault.

I still enjoy the series, not out of any kind of devotion or anything, but because Yahtzee usually says what I'm thinking.
 

solidstatemind

Digital Oracle
Nov 9, 2008
1,077
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Hm. Somebody has been toiling away for a while now on their rant. Sad that it can be entirely refuted so easily: "ZP is entertainment, and it seems be succeeding in its objective, considering that the number of views keeps going up each week."

I really tire of the solopsistic nature of many of the whiners who post in the comments. I'm sorry that you feel that ZP has changed, or that it isn't 'as good as it used to be', or it became something different. However, that's a "you problem". I come here to laugh at the pithy and outrageous comments, and the videos still achieve that objective for me-- and the numbers would seem to argue that I'm not alone in that opinion.

This week, I particularly liked the bit about the 'extremely flat stripper pole', and thought that the observation that the supposed villians are basically doing what Lara is doing, just getting there first was insightful.

Oh, and bonus points for the sixer of Strongbow for the Kraken's housewarming party.
 

MonkeyPunch

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Feb 20, 2008
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NewClassic said:
tl;dr
I don't like watching ZP any more *sob* *sob*
so I'm going to get all philosophical on you guys about something that is just mindless fun
stop watching/watch something else?
 

mokes310

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Oct 13, 2008
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"...shorter than a documentary on French war heroes..." That bit made me laugh pretty hard.

Good review, pretty much explains why I haven't played a Tomb Raider game since TR2. As Yahtzee says, it's the same game, over and over and over and over and over and...
 

sunami88

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Jun 23, 2008
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The "Oooh look, a penny *SCHLORP*" just made my day.

I'm still giggling like a school girl. Thank you.
 

sky14kemea

Deus Ex-Mod
Jun 26, 2008
12,760
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ive lost faith in humanity too, but that was years ago, now i just stay in my room like a sad little hermit watching your vids XDD
i still like tomb raider, but i think thats because i still have memorys of my mum kicking ass on the old versions, and i wish she could start playing them again, but she doesnt like the new moves :(
 

PedroSteckecilo

Mexican Fugitive
Feb 7, 2008
6,732
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GIdub said:
NewClassic said:
tl;dr
I don't like watching ZP any more *sob* *sob*
so I'm going to get all philosophical on you guys about something that is just mindless fun
stop watching/watch something else?
The constant stream of ZP watchers who assault the otherwise peaceful forums every wednesday make it hard to ignore the effects of ZP. That and those of us who have been following for awhile, like all longtime fans of anything, are sad when things appear to be getting staid and samey when they were once fresh and exciting.
 

Baby Tea

Just Ask Frankie
Sep 18, 2008
4,687
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PedroSteckecilo said:
GIdub said:
NewClassic said:
tl;dr
I don't like watching ZP any more *sob* *sob*
so I'm going to get all philosophical on you guys about something that is just mindless fun
stop watching/watch something else?
The constant stream of ZP watchers who assault the otherwise peaceful forums every wednesday make it hard to ignore the effects of ZP. That and those of us who have been following for awhile, like all longtime fans of anything, are sad when things appear to be getting staid and samey when they were once fresh and exciting.
THANK you Pedro. I wanted to jump all over this comment, but I knew I couldn't do it positively (ESPECIALLY with that ridiculous 'tl;dr' comment). Some new people just don't get it. But you, sir Pedro (Yeah, I totally knighted you), are the calming voice of...calm.
 

The Sorrow

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Jan 27, 2008
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Eh, I see what NC's saying, and I would certainly love Yahtzee to use some of the old-fashioned esoteric vocabulary and surprising intelligence present in the classics, but Hell, it's still funny.
I still look forward to every Wednesday.
 

LordKraven

New member
Dec 24, 2008
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God knows if he is right or not, I havent played a Tomb Raider game sence the original playstation. But with even the games with that system were very similer to what he is saying.
 

Abedeus

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Sep 14, 2008
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Why do I have the feeling that NewClassic just copypasted his post, because it's hard to believe he watched a 5 minute review AND managed to write a post this long?

Admittedly, this video seems to like it's using a lot of "too obvious" jokes, and he manages to completely dodge the game review. Entirely. (Okay, maybe he touches on it a little, but for the length of the video, it's largely sketch comedy.)
This is one of the last paragraphs of the rant. How can you know if this video is using a lot of "too obvious jokes" if you, with any luck and super-human reflexes, would have finished watching the review the second you started writing a post? And that's, again, assuming you did watch it before you posted.

Want better reviews? Find him better games that come out in Australia. Or buy and send him one.

Also, I find it strange that someone is saying that "a review is getting staid and samey" when Yahtzee is reviewing a Tomb Raider game when the last one was merely a year and a half ago. If anything, the game is "staid and samey".
 

BlueInkAlchemist

Ridiculously Awesome
Jun 4, 2008
2,231
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Kudos to Yahtzee on giving us all of the bosom humor we were dined in his review of Tomb Raider Anniversary as well as some new bits - "Being a spider rocks!" made me giggle.

And Kudos to NewClassic for an interesting and well-delivered counterpoint to the mindless fanboyism that these threads usually devolve into. I don't necessarily see anything wrong with Yahtzee leaning more towards humor than reviews, but then again I'm the kind of person who can watch the sketches of Monty Python's "Owl-Stretching Time" episode and laugh myself breathless every single time I see them.
 

MonkeyPunch

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Feb 20, 2008
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Baby Tea said:
THANK you Pedro. I wanted to jump all over this comment, but I knew I couldn't do it positively (ESPECIALLY with that ridiculous 'tl;dr' comment). Some new people just don't get it. But you, sir Pedro (Yeah, I totally knighted you), are the calming voice of...calm.
If I "don't get it", why don't you expand on it for me, then.
As said, that convoluted-rant is just much too full of itself - it's like writing a Michelin guide on a hamburger.

PedroSteckecilo said:
The constant stream of ZP watchers who assault the otherwise peaceful forums every wednesday make it hard to ignore the effects of ZP. That and those of us who have been following for awhile, like all longtime fans of anything, are sad when things appear to be getting staid and samey when they were once fresh and exciting.
For starters just because people don't frequent the forum doesn't mean they aren't long time viewers too.
Anyways, you can't at all expect people not to comment like I just did. Posting your opinions in that fashion smack bang into a ZP episode thread is asking for trouble. Much smarter would have been to make another thread.
Posting his "views" like this, borders on trolling in my opinion. Sure post your views in your blog, as a story or in another thread, or what ever - but choosing this thread is just bad form.

Alone the fact that you are a long-time viewer of ZP would indicate that maybe this "samey" feeling you're getting is precisely gained from watching ZP for too long?
I've watched every ZP since Yahtzee threw them up on YT too, and I don't at all share you're feelings about the show. Sure some episodes are better than others... but that' bound to be the case. And if I did, I sure wouldn't choose a ZP episode to approach that matter.

People always know better - just that it's never the ones doing it.
If you really are getting tired of ZP, stop watching it. Dropping numbers in viewers are surely more of an incentive for anyone to change the show rather than an ill-placed rant like NewClassic's.
 

Heroic One

New member
Aug 29, 2007
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I didn't think they made these anymore. Hasn't every single game bombed horribly? How do these people keep getting money?
 

101998

New member
Jan 14, 2009
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101998 said:
Yahtzee is the Jezza of Video Games.
Jezza is the Jezza of Video Games. http://www.australiangamer.com/news/1510_jeremy_clarkson_declares_videogames_the_answer_to_world_peace.html
[/quote]

Great article, thanks for the link. <3 Jezza
 

cuddly_tomato

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Nov 12, 2008
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solidstatemind said:
Hm. Somebody has been toiling away for a while now on their rant. Sad that it can be entirely refuted so easily: "ZP is entertainment, and it seems be succeeding in its objective, considering that the number of views keeps going up each week."
Basically yes.

ZP is entertainment, and it is entertaining. People are still watching it and people still like it. So I really don't get Newclassics complaint. Can someone break it down for me?
 

raggymandan

New member
Jan 14, 2009
2
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0
Nice review!

I've been watching ZP for ages, but 2 day's ago I saw Charlie Brookers Screenwipe and any fan of ZP should watch this. It's like ZP but for TV, and like ZP it's seriously underrated, go youtube it!
 

AceDiamond

New member
Jul 7, 2008
2,293
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So right now we're at the point where people are going "I liked ZP before it got (more) popular", yes?

I mean seriously the game itself is badly repetitive and he's also pointed out a good point about Lara not exactly being a great protagonist (which is something a person with writing experience would gravitate towards discovering)

I'm not saying all disagreements with the more recent ZP eps are wrong, and I'm not saying Yahtzee is the critical version of Jesus Christ, but I am saying we may need to just remind ourselves it's just a show and we should really just relax.
 

HobbesMkii

Hold Me Closer Tony Danza
Jun 7, 2008
856
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Wouldukindly said:
"I'm MR BRAIN HAT" made my day.
Yes, that was brilliant.

Also, NewClassic's review just seemed shoehorned (I know it was. It'd be nigh on impossible to write all that and slip in the images in six minutes, and contains only one explicit mention of Tomb Raider). He probably wrote it after the Escapist Show came out so he knew it would be about Tomb Raider. Frankly, I think he was attempting to respond to prior reviews as compared to the Tomb Raider: Underworld, but needed a fresh review in order to make his point heard (which he accomplished, kudos to him). I'd say this ZP was a step back towards that original funny. That said, I have noticed that stagnating over the course of the run. But hey, that's a problem with writing the same thing over and over, inspiration starts to drain out of you. It's a common problem, and there's lots of ways to handle it. Most shows hire new talent or just work through it. Ricky Gervais purposely limited The Office and [/i]Extras[/i] to two seasons specifically because he knew he couldn't go for an extended run. Ronald D. Moore for Battlestar Galactica set down four seasons (I've heard he shot for five) as the complete arc. ZP doesn't have a storyline, so there's no readily handy point for Yahtzee to get off. He either has to keep going (I imagine it's steady money) or just end it (one Wednesday we wake up to find out it's over). It all depends on which one you'd rather see, I guess. Some lukewarm ZPs for every one great hilarious review, or no ZP at all.
 

000_00_00_00

New member
Jan 13, 2009
14
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0
I haven't played any Titties Mcgiggles games since I think about the third one, I think because three boobies though 50% more boobies it just too much.

Maybe the developers need to have a 'break' from her for a few years and actually come up with something entertaining, that way we have a chance to miss her boobies and they have enough time to think of something good for her to do.
 

Arcanum3000

New member
Sep 13, 2007
5
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0
Yahtzee, you ought to tree Tomb Raider Legend. It was actually surprisingly good, and I don't remember the camera being nearly as irritating as it was in Underworld demo. It also might make Underworld make more sense.
 

SYSTEM-J

New member
Aug 7, 2008
88
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NewClassic said:
Once upon a time, Zero Punctuation was a series that was more about game reviews with good humor and an active style the encouraged the viewer to be a part of the experience, laugh, and actually learn something about a game.
You went wrong there. By the criteria of any professional reviewer (who isn't writing New Journalism) Yahtzee has always been a terrible reviewer and ZP is a case study of How Not To Review. I've been writing web reviews (of music) for coming up to four years, I've had quotes and scores from my reviews used on official artist websites and promotional material and I've learned the long and slow way exactly what constitutes a good review. Yahtzee willfully breaks almost every rule I can think of in any given review.

Zero Punctuation has always been a comedy show that uses the framework of a review to house the laughs. Yahtzee admitted very early on that it isn't funny to praise something so he would focus on the negatives, a fairly blatant admission that laughs come first and the review comes second.

With that said, all your lengthy (and obviously pre-prepared) showpiece rant boils down to is "I no longer find him funny". Welcome to humour: maybe the most subjective thing humanity knows of. Yahtzee has an original and inspired visual/audio delivery format with a distinct style. Like any comedian, once he's found his style it's all about writing good jokes. At the end of the day, I'm still laughing at him and if you aren't that's more likely to be your issue than anything Yahtzee is doing wrong in a sense of craft.
 

Sylocat

Sci-Fi & Shakespeare
Nov 13, 2007
2,122
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GIdub said:
Anyways, you can't at all expect people not to comment like I just did. Posting your opinions in that fashion smack bang into a ZP episode thread is asking for trouble. Much smarter would have been to make another thread.
Posting his "views" like this, borders on trolling in my opinion. Sure post your views in your blog, as a story or in another thread, or what ever - but choosing this thread is just bad form.

Alone the fact that you are a long-time viewer of ZP would indicate that maybe this "samey" feeling you're getting is precisely gained from watching ZP for too long?
I've watched every ZP since Yahtzee threw them up on YT too, and I don't at all share you're feelings about the show. Sure some episodes are better than others... but that' bound to be the case. And if I did, I sure wouldn't choose a ZP episode to approach that matter.

People always know better - just that it's never the ones doing it.
If you really are getting tired of ZP, stop watching it. Dropping numbers in viewers are surely more of an incentive for anyone to change the show rather than an ill-placed rant like NewClassic's.
By your own logic, if you don't like NewClassic's rant, ignore it and don't post about it.
 

tustin2121

New member
Dec 24, 2008
79
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0
NewCastle just wanted attention really really badly. That is defiantly a copy paste and now we're giving him all the attention he wants by commenting on his post. So "Like a child putting the cat in a tumble dryer", let's stop giving him what he wants and pay no more attention to him.

Great Review. I'm still laughing at the credit comment "Laura Crofts's boobs are so big, right, that when she gives someone a titwank they have to be recovered with spelunking equipment." HA!! :D :D
 

Sabbad

New member
Apr 9, 2008
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0
GIdub said:
Posting his "views" like this, borders on trolling in my opinion. Sure post your views in your blog, as a story or in another thread, or what ever - but choosing this thread is just bad form.
No, you are wrong, and I say this despite my issues with NC's original post. This thread is, presumably, set up as a place for viewers to give feedback to the video they've just watched. There's no reason that constructive criticism doesn't belong there.

EDIT: And what's the inverted commas around "views" supposed to mean?
 

m_jim

New member
Jan 14, 2008
497
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Bravo, New Classic. My friend and I, both long-time ZP fans, have been talking about the decline of the series for quite a while. I think that you were fair in your assessment, and if anything not hard enough. While I'm sure that the faithful will see any slight against Yahtzee, their projection of what they could have been if they had talent, as reason enough for jihad, your chief criticism here rings true, even if you did write it in advance: he didn't spend any time talking about the bloody game.
 

DDragonfly1990

New member
Jan 14, 2009
2
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0
Good review, I think the Tomb Raider series is getting really old now and she's giving brits a bad name (especially when you get people like Angelina Jolie portraying her in dire film versions). I think that NewClassic maybe has something against Yahtzee, posting his own review about Zero Punctuation as soon as the video goes up... looks as if it was pre-written then edited after seeing Yahtzee's review then posted straight away.

Looking forward to the next review!
 

Baby Tea

Just Ask Frankie
Sep 18, 2008
4,687
0
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tustin2121 said:
NewCastle just wanted attention really really badly. That is defiantly a copy paste and now we're giving him all the attention he wants by commenting on his post. So "Like a child putting the cat in a tumble dryer", let's stop giving him what he wants and pay no more attention to him.
But I like Nuke, and I think his post DOES deserve attention. It's well written, and has some excellent points.

GIdub said:
If I "don't get it", why don't you expand on it for me, then.
As said, that convoluted-rant is just much too full of itself - it's like writing a Michelin guide on a hamburger.
Well if you didn't read it, as your original post suggests (And as this post basically proves), you'll find the rant (If you could even call it that) wasn't convoluted, or full of itself. It was a well written, thought out observation of the sliding that ZP has made from 'Reviewing with comedy' to 'comedy with maybe reviewing'. That's what you don't seem to 'get'. You also don't seem to get that negative and positive posts about the episode are welcome. Including Nuke's post. And if is TRULY is 'tl' and you really 'dr', then why post about it at all? You're trying to sum up something you know nothing about (Until you actually read it).

And you can call his post (Not rant) 'misplaced' if you like, but it's certainly being read more here then if it was on it's own thread. You said yourself you don't frequent the forums, and you certainly aren't alone. I would imagine a lot of fans-but-not-members scroll through the comments on the latest ZP to see people's reactions! And there is Nuke's post right on page one. That's dame good placement, if anything.

And the MODs do a dame good job around here, and obviously haven't found fault with it. Were it truly misplaced, they'd ban him, or put him on probation, or even delete the post! But they haven't done any of those things. That's because it's an articulate post with points to make (Contrary to 'tl;dr', which only shows you have no attention span).
 

Volucer

New member
Sep 4, 2008
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Actually, that is a good point, Lara does smash up priceless artifacts for no good reason, and kill endangered animals. She could have left the Kraken alive and made millions by "King Kong"-ing it.
 

PedroSteckecilo

Mexican Fugitive
Feb 7, 2008
6,732
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Sabbad said:
PedroSteckecilo said:
Posting his "views" like this, borders on trolling in my opinion. Sure post your views in your blog, as a story or in another thread, or what ever - but choosing this thread is just bad form.
No, you are wrong, and I say this despite my issues with NC's original post. This thread is, presumably, set up as a place for viewers to give feedback to the video they've just watched. There's no reason that constructive criticism doesn't belong there.

EDIT: And what's the inverted commas around "views" supposed to mean?
Um... I didn't say that...I think you misquoted. Gldub was the one who made that particular accusation.
 

BIGpanda

New member
Jan 13, 2009
179
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good thing I never played TB.

nice jokes, the game all and all sucks and now I'm a slave to opinion. cheers ZP and cheers Yahtzee.
 

Silveth

New member
Jan 14, 2009
2
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0
@NewClassic's Post



I'm not sure if this against the internet code or anything, but I really feel I should address a few things to you about your comment on the latest ZP. Note: I will state this now, I am not some sort of ZP fanatic. I, being a writer myself, just hate comments like yours.



Firstly, get off your high horse. I can't imagine what sort or conceited, or, more likely, self-conscious person it would take to premake a post (which you most certainly did, seeing as how no one could type all of that in six fucking minutes) about how much you are "dissappointed" or "long for what it used to be" and then go and plaster pictures and a banner sapping off the the Zero Puncuation name just to promote yourself. That's really fucking insanely low, man.



Secondly, and really, most importantly, who the fuck do you think you are? Most every entertainer of any sort, be it music, painting, acting, or what have you, will agree that the HARDEST job in the entertainment industry is COMEDY. Yahtzee is payed to make humorous videos, sure, but who gives you the goddamn right to ask more of him? Oh, how quickly we turn on those we use to look up to. Yahtzee's review of Silent Hill will testify that fans will indeed never be satisfied with anything they are given. How long has he been doing these videos? A year, maybe? And he's already old to you? I think it's really just an issue of a short attention span on your end than it is a fault of Yahtzee's. It's his fucking video, not yours. Go do it better if you think you can. I'd love to see it and laugh at how fucking terrible it is. It would be one thing to try and add constructive criticism to someone whose work you care about, but, pointing again to the fact that you obviously wrote out that whole diatribe first and edited in Lara's name afterwards, you clearly just don't like the guy. Or, even worse, maybe you just needed the attention, and I am just feeding the troll here.



In any case, I really do hope you look at your bullshit and realize that bitching on the internet like that is fucking asinine and needless. But, that's just me hoping. I, unfortunately, know there are more people like you out there who only think of themselves.



And to the rest of you agreeing with this asshole, bugger off, you needy bastards, and make something of yourselves other than whining internet douchebags.
 

Fordo

New member
Oct 17, 2007
131
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Spider tours...brilliant. I cannot count how many games I've played where that scenario can be explained by this one jab.

Great review.
 

The Tingler

New member
Oct 3, 2007
68
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Happy that Tomb Raider sold really poorly and most of Crystal Dynamics have been fired Yahtzee? It's all your fault!
 

binturong

New member
Jul 2, 2008
6
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I laughed more than I usually do at this episode of ZP but when it was over I found myself leaning back in my chair and sighing wistfully in admission that this is the way it's going to be for a long time. It's like we've been married for over a year now and like a good wife I still laugh at my husband's titty jokes but secretly wonder when he's going to get a real job.

That isn't fair to Yahtzee, really. ZP's charm has always been about pointing out the painfully obvious in overly-hyped video games when no one else seems willing to, and when it isn't doing that it's at least putting the whole industry under a humorous observational light. But the fact is that the entire gaming industry is in a lull right now and naturally that puts a damper on how many jokes you can make about it. After a year filled with Smash Bros. Brawl, MGS4, Fallout 3, Prince of Persia, GTA4, Spore and many others that I haven't even played because I just don't have that kind of money lying around, it's really difficult to get worked up about the upcoming year. It reminds me of our presidential campaign, which shovelled so much late-night joke fodder down our throats that when the president was finally elected, we had to loosen our belts and take a nap after having shot our comedy wads faster than you can say, "I can see Russia from my house." Now we have a new guy in charge and it's going to take a few months to settle down and figure out what's funny about him. He may turn out to be hilariously mockable but we just don't know yet.

So until we know what the economically slumping game industry is going to throw at us this year to make us prostrate to our digital overlords, we've got to put up with another few weeks of rehashed boobies from the likes of Tomb Raider Underworld. Ironic, since by now Lara must have enough gold artifacts in her basement to actually stabilize the US dollar.

Incidentally, I'm not a journalism student, I didn't write this thing up ahead of time and I'm not desperate for attention, so I feel a little out of place in this thread, but I still have an admiration for wordsmithing, and I always appreciate when someone gets right to the point instead of writing a 1,000-word essay that boils down to "Yahtzee sucks, ZP sucks, please don't flame me." And I've never understood why anyone has to justify liking or disliking something to anyone on the internet for any reason, since I'm pretty sure it's been scientifically proven that the internet has no taste. I understand we're in the age of information and everyone's opinion is a precious snowflake, but as Rep. Joe Baca (D-California) has proven, some people just shouldn't be encouraged to express themselves.
 

Baby Tea

Just Ask Frankie
Sep 18, 2008
4,687
0
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Silveth said:
*Snipped out the unnecessary cursing and paragraphs of 'not getting it'*
*Sigh*

Nuke was making a valid point, and that is this: ZP has gone from 'reviews with comedy' to 'comedy, with maybe reviews'. The entire point of the show has shifted! I'll quote Nuke himself:
NewClassic said:
I'd like to point out here that I'm not calling this video series bad. What it is has simply become something different.
Nuke isn't asking MORE of Yahtzee. He's asking for what Yahztee is suppose to deliver in the first place: A review.What we get, instead, is a pile of jokes that may or may not relate to the game (Or gaming in general) and possibly a review-esque type statement at the end.
Funny? Sure!
A review? No.

And I find it delightfully hypocritical that you ask by what right NewClassic has to criticize Yahtzee's work! I could spin that right around! By what right do you have to criticize Nuke's post? Well you both have the right, and it's called free speech. Were you to realize that, your entire second paragraph would be seen as, as the Greeks say, 'moot' and 'pointless'. Everyone has their opinion! You obviously have yours about Nuke and his post, I have mine about you claiming to be a writer, and Nuke has his about ZP.

If Nuke's post was a ridiculous as so many seem to claim, the MODs would take care of it. They do that. It's their job, and they are good at their job.
 

Zetona

New member
Dec 20, 2008
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NewClassic would have done better to rant in a new thread. He can't start a good debate with that rant in here.

The review was good, but I have this feeling that Yahtzee is ranting a bit more than usual about bad video games. He should calm down and review LittleBigPlanet, which I am surprised he hasn't reviewed yet. If he genuinely enjoys it, it will be the first genuinely positive review he's given in a while. If NewClassic is right about anything, it's that when Yahtzee reviews sequels these days, he spends too much time ranting about how the series should be ended.
 

Ace of Spades

New member
Jul 12, 2008
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I'm thankful that Yahtzee actually reviewed a game this time. Funny, as usual.
EDIT: Though on reflection, this wasn't much a review.
 

CB650

New member
Jan 14, 2009
1
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hardwarexpert said:
Been a long time viewer of Zero Punctuation and have never signed up to the Escapist until he mentioned Bristols!

I am from Bristol (UK) and most women born here have big breasts so I couldn't stop laughing when he referred to Lara's breasts as Bristols.

Good work as always Yahtzee!
Most woman from Bristol have large breasts?!?

Bristols is cockney rhyming slang for titties, Bristol Cities, nothing to do with the womenfolk of Bristol.
 

binturong

New member
Jul 2, 2008
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Zetona said:
He should calm down and review LittleBigPlanet, which I am surprised he hasn't reviewed yet. If he genuinely enjoys it, it will be the first genuinely positive review he's given in a while.
My guess is that's exactly why he hasn't done it. Although I think it could and should open the door to the "casuals vs hardcore" comedy closet, a raging debate that's as acrimonious as it is pointless, made all the more intense just for the fact that there aren't any good mainstream games to rage over instead.
 

Sabbad

New member
Apr 9, 2008
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PedroSteckecilo said:
Sabbad said:
PedroSteckecilo said:
Posting his "views" like this, borders on trolling in my opinion. Sure post your views in your blog, as a story or in another thread, or what ever - but choosing this thread is just bad form.
No, you are wrong, and I say this despite my issues with NC's original post. This thread is, presumably, set up as a place for viewers to give feedback to the video they've just watched. There's no reason that constructive criticism doesn't belong there.

EDIT: And what's the inverted commas around "views" supposed to mean?
Um... I didn't say that...I think you misquoted. Gldub was the one who made that particular accusation.
Ah, you are quite right, sorry for dodgy formatting. I'll edit the original.
 

The_Killing_Name

New member
Dec 29, 2008
41
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0
I totally agree with NewClassic, man
Yahtzee's just gone so downhill lately
At first, I liked his reviews, they were witty, and still told me much about the game
Now he just rants about crap games and how crap they are
He's basically become an old man.
 

Yahtzee Croshaw

New member
Aug 8, 2007
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Ignoring newclassic's rather blatant attempts to derail this thread.

Doesn't it seem odd that ZP said he wouldn't bother explaining gameplay then immediately ranted on the gameplay in this game?
 

Mrsoupcup

New member
Jan 13, 2009
3,487
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Tomb raider is long dead someone just needs to bury her.... in cement... on the moon... the nuke the moon... and take whats left... and throw it in the sun... and the halo 3 voice guy will say "overkill" hu, if like were like that you wouldn't need a slipnot.
 

Yahtzee Croshaw

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Aug 8, 2007
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The best part of that review, was how she "was mister brain hat!" I practically cried I laughed so hard. I was surprised Yahtzee felt so much sympathy for the "bosses"
 

Pastey Old Greg

New member
Jul 2, 2008
56
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Boy, I can't imagine how much biologists hate her. These are people that would trade their left nut to SEE a kraken, giant spider, or tiger, and she's putting a bullet in their skulls like there's no problem.
 

dejawolf

New member
Nov 5, 2008
5
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this review is udderly awesome.
seems like yahtzees batteries are all well charged up again!
 

Conqueror Kenny

New member
Jan 14, 2008
2,824
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Father Time said:
Ignoring newclassic's rather blatant attempts to derail this thread.
Derail it? From what? Nothing ever happens in these threads bar random arguments vaguely related to the episode and roughly 200 posts saying
"lol gr8 as usal"
Really what is there to derail?
 

Unimagined

New member
Jan 4, 2009
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danebot said:
The worst part is, you think it's worth reading, and that you're brillant! Thanks for your comments, but next time I want that kind of counter-opinion in my house I'll just invite a Jehova's witness in for coffee.
I'm an optimist, so I'm going to attempt to reason with you.

NewClassic CARES about ZP, and that's why he took the trouble to post what he did (pre-prepared or not). I think it's entirely reasonable to suggest he might even care more than many of us here. He's a fan of everything ZP represented. He's on Yahtzee's side. Like a coach asking a player to raise his game, it's because he ultimately believes it can be done. That's putting faith in Yahtzee.

If you consider the internet or this forum "your house" then I suggest you maybe open the door and leave it sometime. If you don't want a well thought out, balanced argument in the spirit of free speech then I suggest setting up residence within a dictatorship, and leave the internet well alone because you're going to be consistently disappointed with people and their differences.

I respect that you didn't agree with NewClassic's point of view but you could have at least tried to counter it with an appropriate level of thought and wit.
 

MonkeyPunch

New member
Feb 20, 2008
589
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Baby Tea said:
And you can call his post (Not rant) 'misplaced' if you like, but it's certainly being read more here then if it was on it's own thread. You said yourself you don't frequent the forums, and you certainly aren't alone. I would imagine a lot of fans-but-not-members scroll through the comments on the latest ZP to see people's reactions! And there is Nuke's post right on page one. That's dame good placement, if anything.
That's the whole point. It's "troll placement". It's like turning up in a thread about how wonderful PS3 graphics are and then having someone pop in with a mile-high post on how PS3 graphics are glitchy, or something similar.
Yeah, less people would have read it if it was not posted here... so what? Tough cheddar.
He's using Yahtzee's show's comments section to flog his rant to the masses and that's meant to appease me?

And the MODs do a dame good job around here, and obviously haven't found fault with it. Were it truly misplaced, they'd ban him, or put him on probation, or even delete the post! But they haven't done any of those things. That's because it's an articulate post with points to make (Contrary to 'tl;dr', which only shows you have no attention span).
It is articulate, but that doesn't make it any less misplaced or accurate.
On top of that, (which is what I said in both my other posts; he's taking something which is purely about humour, way too seriously.
It's almost as bad as the people who rant about how unfairly their favourite game was reviewed by Yahtzee and how the review was factually inaccurate... bla bla - you're taking his shows way too seriously.

In fact, SYSTEM-J put it in a much more moderate and diplomatic tone than I did [in fact in an all together "better" way - but hey, he's obviously a journalist :p), but is essentially speaking from my heart when he says:
With that said, all your lengthy (and obviously pre-prepared) showpiece rant boils down to is "I no longer find him funny". Welcome to humour: maybe the most subjective thing humanity knows of. Yahtzee has an original and inspired visual/audio delivery format with a distinct style. Like any comedian, once he's found his style it's all about writing good jokes. At the end of the day, I'm still laughing at him and if you aren't that's more likely to be your issue than anything Yahtzee is doing wrong in a sense of craft.
 

PhiMed

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Nov 26, 2008
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I know others have mentioned this, but "The gameplay is shorter than a documentary on French War Heroes." Tee hee.

Also, kudos to Yahtzee for his restraint in only showing his horrified face instead of Lara's buttocks during the "Oh, look, I found a penny! .... SCHLORP" portion. God knows I would've been more graphic. Guess that's why he's ZP and I'm not.
 

CrafterMan

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Aug 3, 2008
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NewClassic said:
I actually agree with you Mr New Classic, very good points, probably should make your own thread though! :) But I can see your motive after this stale review. I hardly laughed once.

-Joe
 

MikePhilbin

New member
Mar 15, 2008
50
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what? you mean they haven't sorted out that awful Tomb Raider (death drop, not jump, death drop!) multi-fingered control system from the original painful outing. did nobody play the original Prince of Persia yet?
 

estro_pajo

New member
Dec 15, 2008
34
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0
lol
NewClassic prepared a post, waited until ZP vid is published (f5f5f5f5f5f5) and then we came, the readers.
I've read the first third of the post and then I've skipped to the last sentence, because... he's apologising for his own post in the post in question for the two thirds of the length of his post.

I think this invalidates most anything he wrote there...
 

Baby Tea

Just Ask Frankie
Sep 18, 2008
4,687
0
0
GIdub said:
That's the whole point. It's "troll placement". It's like turning up in a thread about how wonderful PS3 graphics are and then having someone pop in with a mile-high post on how PS3 graphics are glitchy, or something similar.
No, it's not the same. Not even close. This thread isn't called 'How awesome is ZP?' It's a comment section about a show. Comments that can be negative or positive. Nuke is well within his rights to post on here as he sees fit, so long as it pertains to the topic. And it does! If it didn't, the MODs would have it removed. Simple as that.

GIdub said:
In fact, SYSTEM-J put it in a much more moderate and diplomatic tone but is essentially speaking from my heart when he says:
With that said, all your lengthy (and obviously pre-prepared) showpiece rant boils down to is "I no longer find him funny". Welcome to humour: maybe the most subjective thing humanity knows of. Yahtzee has an original and inspired visual/audio delivery format with a distinct style. Like any comedian, once he's found his style it's all about writing good jokes. At the end of the day, I'm still laughing at him and if you aren't that's more likely to be your issue than anything Yahtzee is doing wrong in a sense of craft.
You know what the problem is with SYSTEM-J's post? It's that he tries to sum up Nuke's post with: 'I no longer find him funny'. Which is wrong.

Did anyone actually read his post, or just the first line and assumed they knew it all?

Nuke is saying that the show has changed. It's not the same as it once was, from the subtle things (like the intro music) to the big things (Like everything else), it's no longer about reviewing games.
It's about ranting on games, with very little in the way of actual reviewing. The show is still funny, and Nuke himself says the series isn't bad (If you actually READ his post), but it's not the SAME. Where is the actual review? It's either hidden or non-existent in a mass of jokes that may or may not relate to the game, or gaming as a whole. That's the problem with ZP that Nuke has! The humour is generally the same! It's the content that's changing.
It's like if a webcomic about video games suddenly changed into a serious comic that only generally involves gamers (Sorry CAD). It might not be bad, but it isn't the SAME. What Nuke is asking for is what Yahtzee is supposed to be delivering: Reviews with his distinct comedy style. Not ranting about a crappy game (Or a game he perceives as 'crappy') with little to no 'review' involved.
 

Kuth

New member
Jan 14, 2009
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Usually a silent watcher but I have to comment on this, does it seem our dear Brit-Aussie seemed to tone down the speed of of his speech? I still liked it, but it seemed to go rather slow then the other ZP.
 

elpresidente

New member
Feb 10, 2008
43
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Well, this time I do not agree with Yahtzee - probably because he didn't play "TR: Legend", which was also a very good game, and without playing it you can't really understand the story in "TR: Underworld". Also, I think his girlfriend was in the room while he was playing, so maybe he couldn't enjoy Lara's assets.
The review was funny anyway, although Yahtzee sounded a bit too cranky for me. Ok, he's right about Lara braking ancient artifacts and killing rare species, but I can't think of any point in the series where someone regarded her as archaeologist. She's a tomb raider. Tomb raider with big boobs and nice ass.
I really enjoyed "TR: Underworld" and it didn't feel like a second job. It had amazing visuals, great sound, and didn't lag at all. And this is something I can't say for "Fallout 3" - the biggest disappointment this year, yet Yahtzee was rather merciful towards it.
 

Ophiuchus

8 miles high and falling fast
Mar 31, 2008
2,095
0
0
hardwarexpert said:
Been a long time viewer of Zero Punctuation and have never signed up to the Escapist until he mentioned Bristols!

I am from Bristol (UK) and most women born here have big breasts so I couldn't stop laughing when he referred to Lara's breasts as Bristols.

Good work as always Yahtzee!
Welcome to Cockney rhyming slang. Bristols = short for Bristol City = titty.

Best episode in a long time, if y'ask me.
 

dudeman0001

New member
Jul 8, 2008
503
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I would've preferred "LOL, My thinking cap!" instead of "I'm Mr.brainhat" but whatever his is funneh too
 

jebussaves88

New member
May 4, 2008
1,395
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You can't really blame NewClassic for posting when he did. If you really want to discuss something, why not post it where it'll garner the most attention. To be honest, I've been of the opinion that the series was going downhill. But then again, I never expected it to last this long. I hope Yahtzee finds a new endeavour to take his obvious talent to, but I think these videos are now nothing more than income as opposed to a work of passion, and therefore the quality will slip. Honestly, how long can you expect a guy to stay enthusiastic about his own internet video series, playing with Windows Movie Maker week-in week-out?
 

mark_n_b

New member
Mar 24, 2008
729
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danebot said:
ZP is fairly entertaining, but I don't understand why everything else on the escapist seems so unbearably unfunny.

EDIT: Are you kidding me up there with that copy-pasted text wall?

You have something you desperately want people to read, and yet you say nothing. You perched like a sniper waiting for the video to be released so you could soapbox in the first few posts on a site that is full of peple who enjoy the videos. The worst part is, you think it's worth reading, and that you're brillant! Thanks for your comments, but next time I want that kind of counter-opinion in my house I'll just invite a Jehova's witness in for coffee.
Compared to the strategy of doing a quick post to ensure a similarly high spot in the posts and then editing. The Escapist is not really a humour site (I say that because I see more and more pandering to dull witted comedy for traffic).

But for the point. This article is better left to the review section, Classic, especially when it is clear that you had it lying in wait. And because you do know better, the flame baiting is not cool. If this were anything but a ZP thread I'd suggest the mods should put you on probation for stirring up shit. BUt it is a ZP thread (*yuk yuk* he said tittie) so you earn much leeway. I will say that ZP is handled much more skillfully (and humorously) than Unskippable, and ending your review on a site required addition lost you some credibility.
whyarecarrots said:
Ahh at last, a truly moronic post deserving of a ban; something we can be truly and unamobiuosly satisfied with and not bod down the thread with discussions of why he was banned.
Your kidding me right? Firstly, It's a fair review article, let's be fair, Yahzee made his "girls with big boobies nerds don't have sex" thing for over half the review, which he has done before. Secondly, with almost 2000 Posts to his name, an escapist contributor, and not being a ZP tard post the chances of banning are nil. Don'tbe dumb, you don't get banned for expressing intelligent (if contrary) opinions on this site. Maybe if he posted something like "ZP is teh suxorz" 30 seconds after the movie was posted then your assesment would make sense.
 

SYSTEM-J

New member
Aug 7, 2008
88
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Baby Tea said:
You know what the problem is with SYSTEM-J's post? It's that he tries to sum up Nuke's post with: 'I no longer find him funny'. Which is wrong.

Did anyone actually read his post, or just the first line and assumed they knew it all?

Nuke is saying that the show has changed. It's not the same as it once was, from the subtle things (like the intro music) to the big things (Like everything else), it's no longer about reviewing games.
What's amusing is you clearly haven't read my post properly, or at least you didn't take any time to consider what I had to say. I know perfectly well what New Classic was saying, and what I did with my post was underline (and undermine) the incorrect assumption his entire post is built on.

ZP has certainly changed to an extent, as does every episodic series in just about every format, ever. I've made this same point before and it seems I will have to make it again: critics will always make the easy snipe about change. If a series alters the formula in any way, it's "jumped the shark", lost the original magic and so on. If a series does the same thing forever, it's gone stale, ran out of ideas, is just repeating itself and so forth.

The point I'm making, and which you've neatly ignored, is that New Classic obviously got ZP wrong in the first instance by mistaking it for a review show with jokes. It's never been that. It's comedy put within the framework of a review. There's an important difference. Saying "it's changed!" is meaningless because of the ambivalent attitude towards change I outlined above, and New Classic got the meaningful part wrong.
 

whyarecarrots

New member
Nov 19, 2008
417
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mark_n_b said:
whyarecarrots said:
Ahh at last, a truly moronic post deserving of a ban; something we can be truly and unamobiuosly satisfied with and not bod down the thread with discussions of why he was banned.
Your kidding me right? Firstly, It's a fair review article, let's be fair, Yahzee made his "girls with big boobies nerds don't have sex" thing for over half the review, which he has done before. Secondly, with almost 2000 Posts to his name, an escapist contributor, and not being a ZP tard post the chances of banning are nil. Don'tbe dumb, you don't get banned for expressing intelligent (if contrary) opinions on this site. Maybe if he posted something like "ZP is teh suxorz" 30 seconds after the movie was posted then your assesment would make sense
I was talking about the post that someone did get banned for, which simply said 'first'. The rant/article didn't exist when I posted.
 

ZeroRyoko1974

New member
Jan 7, 2009
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If Yahtzee interests really do include professional troll, he probably likes it when people waste their lives writing a discertation on why his reviews are bad.
 

KingPiccolOwned

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Jan 12, 2009
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Well that was fairly predictable. Also before I go I want to say that I have never bought nor will I buy any Tomb Raider game, so according to Yahtzee's quota I am the one person to make him regain his faith in humanity. :p
 

Baby Tea

Just Ask Frankie
Sep 18, 2008
4,687
0
0
Top Dollar said:
NewClassic said:
I'd like to point out here that I'm not calling this video series bad.
Yes you are. Saying that doesn't cancel out the rest of your rant.
Oy. No he isn't. He's saying it's changed. Just read a bit farther then what you quoted, and you'd see he said that himself.

SYSTEM-J said:
The point I'm making, and which you've neatly ignored, is that New Classic obviously got ZP wrong in the first instance by mistaking it for a review show with jokes. It's never been that. It's comedy put within the framework of a review. There's an important difference. Saying "it's changed!" is meaningless because of the ambivalent attitude towards change I outlined above, and New Classic got the meaningful part wrong.
It IS a review show with jokes! You said yourself that it's comedy within the framework of a review! You know what that means? That it's comedy WITHIN a review! Well shucks darn, that's what I've been saying. You didn't outline any difference, you merely stated: It's not a review with comedy! It's comedy in a review!

Well you sure showed me.

Yahtzee has mentioned before about 'reviewing' games and his 'reviews'. So if HE calls them reviews, what should we call them? Review frameworks injected with comedy?

But you're right, critics are quick to harp on change. But that's because it's sort of a 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' mentality. The original ZPs had the clever humour we enjoy today, but with an actual review in there.
That's what Nuke is looking for (And myself, and others), and that isn't too much to ask, seeing as it was done for so long that way anyways.
 

KingPiccolOwned

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Jan 12, 2009
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And he probably also enjoys it when other people waste their time by defending him like some brainless idiotic fanboy. You know the kind he hates so passionatly.
 

SYSTEM-J

New member
Aug 7, 2008
88
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0
Baby Tea said:
It IS a review show with jokes! You said yourself that it's comedy within the framework of a review! You know what that means? That it's comedy WITHIN a review! Well shucks darn, that's what I've been saying. You didn't outline any difference, you merely stated: It's not a review with comedy! It's comedy in a review!
I'd have thought the difference would be clear, but apparently not. The difference is what the emphasis is on. If it's a review show with jokes, the emphasis is on the review. People should tune in to watch essentially fair, informative pieces of consumer journalism that are intended primarily to help them with their purchasing decisions. Since Yahtzee quite deliberately avoids being fair, informative or even making journalism, this clearly isn't the case.

By contrast, if it's a comedy using the framework of a review, the emphasis is not on any of the criteria a proper review should consider but rather about making people laugh. In the latest episode, Yahtzee references Top Gear and Top Gear is a classic example of a show that uses the review format to generate laughs. In a recent episode, Clarkson did a "proper review" of a car after someone complained (just like you and your chum "Nuke" are) that Top Gear don't do proper reviews anymore. The sequence was broken up into different areas of analysis, but within the conventional motoring purchase criteria were questions like "Will it help me escape from baddies in a shopping centre?" The whole section was a joke, quite deliberately, and whoever wrote in had quite clearly Missed The Point.

That's the difference. If you really need it spelling out so clearly I can only assume two things:

1. You aren't really getting ZP in the first place, which throws into severe scrutiny your criticisms of the show.
2. You have little idea of what constitutes a good review, which undermines any praise you may have for ZP as a review show even if it was one.
 

Hipsy-Gypsy

New member
Jan 14, 2009
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I feel for you. Really I do. Jump + Forward = Get up onto the fucking platform NOT hump the Goddamn wall. >_<'
I never got used to it. Sweet Jeezus.
 

Sprogus

The Lord of Dreams
Jan 8, 2009
481
0
0
Only reason I would play a Tomb Raider game these days is to pretend that I'm a fashion model photographer. But other then that I enjoyed this weeks ZP as I usually do.
 

Epictank of Wintown

New member
Jan 8, 2009
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SYSTEM-J said:
Baby Tea said:
It IS a review show with jokes! You said yourself that it's comedy within the framework of a review! You know what that means? That it's comedy WITHIN a review! Well shucks darn, that's what I've been saying. You didn't outline any difference, you merely stated: It's not a review with comedy! It's comedy in a review!
I'd have thought the difference would be clear, but apparently not. The difference is what the emphasis is on. If it's a review show with jokes, the emphasis is on the review. People should tune in to watch essentially fair, informative pieces of consumer journalism that are intended primarily to help them with their purchasing decisions. Since Yahtzee quite deliberately avoids being fair, informative or even making journalism, this clearly isn't the case.

By contrast, if it's a comedy using the framework of a review, the emphasis is not on any of the criteria a proper review should consider but rather about making people laugh. In the latest episode, Yahtzee references Top Gear and Top Gear is a classic example of a show that uses the review format to generate laughs. In a recent episode, Clarkson did a "proper review" of a car after someone complained (just like you and your chum "Nuke" are) that Top Gear don't do proper reviews anymore. The sequence was broken up into different areas of analysis, but within the conventional motoring purchase criteria were questions like "Will it help me escape from baddies in a shopping centre?" The whole section was a joke, quite deliberately, and whoever wrote in had quite clearly Missed The Point.

That's the difference. If you really need it spelling out so clearly I can only assume two things:

1. You aren't really getting ZP in the first place, which throws into severe scrutiny your criticisms of the show.
2. You have little idea of what constitutes a good review, which undermines any praise you may have for ZP as a review show even if it was one.
This man, ladies and gentlemen, has it right. Yahtzee isn't out to make a review. He doesn't give scores, he doesn't do the things that EVERY SINGLE REVIEWER on the planet does. No. He uses a video game review as a platform for comedy and that's something he pulls off really well.

Sure, the show's changed. So what? All I've really seen from people complaining about ZP is how it's changed and, paradoxically, is exactly the same as it's always been and getting stale. Which one is it? The 'change' and 'stagnation' are really rather mutually exclusive.

As for NewClassic...that was tastelessly done. You have a problem with Yahtzee's reviews? Make your own thread. Post your review of his review or whatever there and don't leech off the thread made for the review. That's trolling at its finest because you -clearly- posted that here to try and get people worked up. Sure, this wasn't the best review he's made, but it still made me laugh. It did what it was supposed to do. It entertained.
 

thejaoodmaster

New member
Jan 9, 2009
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danebot said:
ZP is fairly entertaining, but I don't understand why everything else on the escapist seems so unbearably unfunny.

EDIT: Are you kidding me up there with that copy-pasted text wall?

You have something you desperately want people to read, and yet you say nothing. You perched like a sniper waiting for the video to be released so you could soapbox in the first few posts on a site that is full of peple who enjoy the videos. The worst part is, you think it's worth reading, and that you're brillant! Thanks for your comments, but next time I want that kind of counter-opinion in my house I'll just invite a Jehova's witness in for coffee.


I do think that he cares about ZP or otherwise he would not have posted in this thread. Also, it was smart of him to have created a post before in order that his ideas could receive the most views; i do not know how criticizing him for that is a valid point.

Admittedly, he does seem to be the OCD and the low-esteem type, covering all of his bases and "portending" other peoples' responses. In truth, if he was doing this out of simple desire to help further this show rather than egotism then 95% of what he said should be thrown out.

P.S. it is quite worth reading and he seems quite loquacious
 

Yahtzee Croshaw

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whyarecarrots said:
Ahh at last, a truly moronic post deserving of a ban; something we can be truly and unamobiuosly satisfied with and not bod down the thread with discussions of why he was banned.
Wait are you talking about your own post? I dont see where this statement could be true for anything but. I have to agree that ZP is still entertaining and all just not as much as it was back in the day. So nice job voicing your opinion in a truly idiotic way.
 

whyarecarrots

New member
Nov 19, 2008
417
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-V- Otix said:
whyarecarrots said:
Ahh at last, a truly moronic post deserving of a ban; something we can be truly and unamobiuosly satisfied with and not bod down the thread with discussions of why he was banned.
Wait are you talking about your own post? I dont see where this statement could be true for anything but. I have to agree that ZP is still entertaining and all just not as much as it was back in the day. So nice job voicing your opinion in a truly idiotic way.
I was merely commenting on the fact that the last few ZP threads have had a discussion on them about why the first few posts were banned; in this thread the first reply was banned for a reason, and thus no reason for a discussion on it.

And please, how have I voiced my opinion in a truly idiotic way; I voiced my opinion of the first reply of this thread in a manner appropriate for the post. In case you missed it it's been hidden by a mod so you have to click to show it, but I promise, it's there.
 

Ragnarok the Red

New member
Dec 10, 2008
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Epictank of Wintown said:
SYSTEM-J said:
Baby Tea said:
It IS a review show with jokes! You said yourself that it's comedy within the framework of a review! You know what that means? That it's comedy WITHIN a review! Well shucks darn, that's what I've been saying. You didn't outline any difference, you merely stated: It's not a review with comedy! It's comedy in a review!
I'd have thought the difference would be clear, but apparently not. The difference is what the emphasis is on. If it's a review show with jokes, the emphasis is on the review. People should tune in to watch essentially fair, informative pieces of consumer journalism that are intended primarily to help them with their purchasing decisions. Since Yahtzee quite deliberately avoids being fair, informative or even making journalism, this clearly isn't the case.

By contrast, if it's a comedy using the framework of a review, the emphasis is not on any of the criteria a proper review should consider but rather about making people laugh. In the latest episode, Yahtzee references Top Gear and Top Gear is a classic example of a show that uses the review format to generate laughs. In a recent episode, Clarkson did a "proper review" of a car after someone complained (just like you and your chum "Nuke" are) that Top Gear don't do proper reviews anymore. The sequence was broken up into different areas of analysis, but within the conventional motoring purchase criteria were questions like "Will it help me escape from baddies in a shopping centre?" The whole section was a joke, quite deliberately, and whoever wrote in had quite clearly Missed The Point.

That's the difference. If you really need it spelling out so clearly I can only assume two things:

1. You aren't really getting ZP in the first place, which throws into severe scrutiny your criticisms of the show.
2. You have little idea of what constitutes a good review, which undermines any praise you may have for ZP as a review show even if it was one.
This man, ladies and gentlemen, has it right. Yahtzee isn't out to make a review. He doesn't give scores, he doesn't do the things that EVERY SINGLE REVIEWER on the planet does. No. He uses a video game review as a platform for comedy and that's something he pulls off really well.

Sure, the show's changed. So what? All I've really seen from people complaining about ZP is how it's changed and, paradoxically, is exactly the same as it's always been and getting stale. Which one is it? The 'change' and 'stagnation' are really rather mutually exclusive.
System J and Epic Tank make excellent points here. What Yahtzee does aren't game reviews in a traditional sense, they are a topic for him to comment on comedically which he does to good effect. If you want a real, itemized review of a game head over to IGN or something (cue jokes about their lack of integrity here) or bum on over to GameFAQs and see what other gamers think about something following a precise breakdown of graphics, sound, gameplay, etc.

And like has been said before, you can't please everyone all the time. You'll never find a way to do something without pissing off at least a decent minority chunk of your demographic. If Yahtzee stays the same people complain about stagnation and formulaic-ness. If he changes it's "jumping the shark" or "abandoning what made the show so good". Either way you win, and either way you lose. Trying to please everyone is a pointless endeavor.

Hell I myself miss the unique song openings and closings the show had it's first 9 or 10 months, but I realize as time went on and Yahtzee became more and more popular the greater the risk of him getting in trouble for unauthorized copy infringement or just plain old running out of songs to use on a given review. So I understood why he revoked it.

What I think a lot of people don't see about Yahtzee's reviews is that when you tune in to watch them you AREN'T tuning into a G4 program segment reviewing a game or some such, you're tuning into a Comedy Central 4-5 minute standup comedy rant about it.
 

HuCast

New member
Aug 18, 2006
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Liked it much better than the last ones...the hits come much faster and harder-tons of quotable stuff-thanks a lot for this one, still lmao :)
 

twilinova07

New member
Nov 26, 2008
51
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0
another good episode this week. my favorite was the joke about the autistic camera

and thanks for pointing out how evil she kinda is. women role model my ass.
 

Mexicanbulge

New member
Jan 15, 2009
3
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0
I agree that i think zero punctuation has been slipping from the episodes of old, but i would put it to you that you are simpley becoming acclimatised to the humour.
Personally i have to say that i found this weeks episode extremely funny and a great return to form for yahtzee.
It included some of his best lines to date and made me watch it twice on the spot which no video has done since the super-smash-bros-brawl mailbag-respondance video.
Also i signed up, which i obviously havent done before.
My only quibble is that some of the time taken up with repeated titty points could have been used to have a longer go at the camera.
I reckon terrible cameras deserve more criticism as they can make and otherwise good game almost unplayable (see ninja gaiden 2).

All in all a great return to form yahtzee! Now don't slide back!
:)
 

thejaoodmaster

New member
Jan 9, 2009
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0
I would agree with Ragnorak on most of his points. Nonetheless, he shows how some people would spend literally hours defending an online icon( or a real, very funny person) who makes fun of fans like Ragnorak.
 

AceDiamond

New member
Jul 7, 2008
2,293
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Again I'm still not understanding this sort of "indie rock fan wangst" that's coming from people these days regarding ZP.

Wonder if we'll see "Yahtzee has sold out" t-shirts appearing on Cafe Press
 

spudpuffin

New member
Apr 27, 2008
24
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NewClassic said:

Zero Incentive - A NewClassic Rant on Zero Punctuation.

Like Lara, one thing Yahtzee seems to be showing signs of is simply tiring out. He's becoming old, not particularly interesting, and going towards stale in terms of humor and style. Once upon a time, Zero Punctuation was a series that was more about game reviews with good humor and an active style that encouraged the viewer to be a part of the experience, laugh, and actually learn something about a game.

More lately, not too unlike G4, Yahtzee's been slowing down, and now he's leaning a lot more on humor instead of game-content. Although this doesn't make it bad, it does make something of it that it is not. For the most part, Zero Punctuation is no longer about game reviews, and is now about gaming-related humor.

<img_inline caption="Simply put, Zero Punctuation
has become something it's not." align="left">http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a395/NewClassic/Forum%20Stuff/spy.jpg
Almost like it's a new show disguised in an old shell, I can't help but feel like Zero Punctuation is losing some of what made it better once upon a time. The loss of the clever song-choices at the beginning and end of the videos, the clever intelligent humor woven into the discussion of the games themselves, and actual review segments that really told the player more about the game than simply pointing out a series of flaws and making jokes about them. (Don't get me wrong, this was always present. But it feels stronger now, as if this is the main focus.)

I'd like to point out here that I'm not calling this video series bad. What it is has simply become is something different. As much as I'd like to encourage the video series, I'd rather say take a step back and look into it's roots. Some of the things that made Zero Punctuation so clever is rapidly becoming a thing of the past. Maybe I'm speaking only to myself here, but I'd like to think the series could return to what made it so strong to begin with.

Now, I'd like to take a moment to perhaps stave off some dissent before it gets to a point of argument rather than debate. I'm not here to attack Yahtzee. I feel like he could be doing better with this video series than he currently is, and I see no harm in saying as much.

Though if I were, I hope we would all understand how little it would accomplish. Small time curmudgeons like me won't reduce Yahtzee to tears, considering how little he cares about us. As small-time viewers , we're more here to provide traffic and watch something we enjoy, with the commentary being nothing other than banal time-wasting. Hopefully, we can get some discussion as to the very limited review-content of Yahtzee's latest ZP videos.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a395/NewClassic/Forum%20Stuff/washedup.jpg
To be honest, I'm not entirely sure what I'm accomplishing here. Fans of the series will, especially those currently watching each video with bated breath, are likely going to continue to be fans of the series regardless of what I have to say. Ultimately, though, my opinions are what individualizes me, as well as what is important. Like all comments on these videos, it really shows the power of opinions as a commentative medium. (Admittedly, a lot of these opinions completely mirror Yahtzee's, regardless of game or opinion.)

What would not surprise me is if this comment is received poorly. Maybe it's my cynical side talking, but I'd hardly believe that many people will appreciate this opinion; even only because it disagrees with Yahtzee. I've never really understood the almost crusader-like fervor that fans of the series attracts, and I find that no matter how often I watch the videos, there's always something about Yahtzee's opinion that I disagree with.

Not that small time critics like myself do well making posts like these, as they often wind up dead, or carrying on flame wars. And if you wanted my honest opinion, I'd suggest how little all of it matters because I don't think this series will just turn over and die. A lot of it is because that the series still has merit on its own. "Mankind Has Yet to Recognize My Genius" is and will always be a misnomer, because the term genius has so much of a subjective slant to it.

Admittedly, this video seems to like it's using a lot of "too obvious" jokes, and he manages to completely dodge the game review. Entirely. (Okay, maybe he touches on it a little, but for the length of the video, it's largely sketch comedy.)

Though he seems to hate the series, and yet jumps on this one simply because... I'm rather confused by the entire experience. Why? It doesn't make sense to me.

By and large, I'm not particularly pleased. I feel like this series could really return to how clever it once was, and recover that balance of subtlety and blatant humor that it once had. As time progresses, though, I feel like I'm only fooling myself into thinking that it could ever be that way ever again.

Maybe I'm just some cranky old gamer looking at something, and wishing it were more like something he enjoyed some time ago, instead of just occasionally alluding to it like it is now.

(Although, bonus points for the Unskippable ad at the end of the video. Good series, although it already has plenty of viewers.)
look m8 u need a girl were not here for comparisons to the "old days" were here for 4 minutes of a guy making semi-resonable arguments and nit picking that hilarious!
 

Anitoon

New member
Jun 18, 2008
11
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NewClassic said:

Zero Incentive - A NewClassic Rant on Zero Punctuation.

Like Lara, one thing Yahtzee seems to be showing signs of is simply tiring out. He's becoming old, not particularly interesting, and going towards stale in terms of humor and style. Once upon a time, Zero Punctuation was a series that was more about game reviews with good humor and an active style that encouraged the viewer to be a part of the experience, laugh, and actually learn something about a game.

More lately, not too unlike G4, Yahtzee's been slowing down, and now he's leaning a lot more on humor instead of game-content. Although this doesn't make it bad, it does make something of it that it is not. For the most part, Zero Punctuation is no longer about game reviews, and is now about gaming-related humor.

<img_inline caption="Simply put, Zero Punctuation
has become something it's not." align="left">http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a395/NewClassic/Forum%20Stuff/spy.jpg
Almost like it's a new show disguised in an old shell, I can't help but feel like Zero Punctuation is losing some of what made it better once upon a time. The loss of the clever song-choices at the beginning and end of the videos, the clever intelligent humor woven into the discussion of the games themselves, and actual review segments that really told the player more about the game than simply pointing out a series of flaws and making jokes about them. (Don't get me wrong, this was always present. But it feels stronger now, as if this is the main focus.)

I'd like to point out here that I'm not calling this video series bad. What it is has simply become is something different. As much as I'd like to encourage the video series, I'd rather say take a step back and look into it's roots. Some of the things that made Zero Punctuation so clever is rapidly becoming a thing of the past. Maybe I'm speaking only to myself here, but I'd like to think the series could return to what made it so strong to begin with.

Now, I'd like to take a moment to perhaps stave off some dissent before it gets to a point of argument rather than debate. I'm not here to attack Yahtzee. I feel like he could be doing better with this video series than he currently is, and I see no harm in saying as much.

Though if I were, I hope we would all understand how little it would accomplish. Small time curmudgeons like me won't reduce Yahtzee to tears, considering how little he cares about us. As small-time viewers , we're more here to provide traffic and watch something we enjoy, with the commentary being nothing other than banal time-wasting. Hopefully, we can get some discussion as to the very limited review-content of Yahtzee's latest ZP videos.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a395/NewClassic/Forum%20Stuff/washedup.jpg
To be honest, I'm not entirely sure what I'm accomplishing here. Fans of the series will, especially those currently watching each video with bated breath, are likely going to continue to be fans of the series regardless of what I have to say. Ultimately, though, my opinions are what individualizes me, as well as what is important. Like all comments on these videos, it really shows the power of opinions as a commentative medium. (Admittedly, a lot of these opinions completely mirror Yahtzee's, regardless of game or opinion.)

What would not surprise me is if this comment is received poorly. Maybe it's my cynical side talking, but I'd hardly believe that many people will appreciate this opinion; even only because it disagrees with Yahtzee. I've never really understood the almost crusader-like fervor that fans of the series attracts, and I find that no matter how often I watch the videos, there's always something about Yahtzee's opinion that I disagree with.

Not that small time critics like myself do well making posts like these, as they often wind up dead, or carrying on flame wars. And if you wanted my honest opinion, I'd suggest how little all of it matters because I don't think this series will just turn over and die. A lot of it is because that the series still has merit on its own. "Mankind Has Yet to Recognize My Genius" is and will always be a misnomer, because the term genius has so much of a subjective slant to it.

Admittedly, this video seems to like it's using a lot of "too obvious" jokes, and he manages to completely dodge the game review. Entirely. (Okay, maybe he touches on it a little, but for the length of the video, it's largely sketch comedy.)

Though he seems to hate the series, and yet jumps on this one simply because... I'm rather confused by the entire experience. Why? It doesn't make sense to me.

By and large, I'm not particularly pleased. I feel like this series could really return to how clever it once was, and recover that balance of subtlety and blatant humor that it once had. As time progresses, though, I feel like I'm only fooling myself into thinking that it could ever be that way ever again.

Maybe I'm just some cranky old gamer looking at something, and wishing it were more like something he enjoyed some time ago, instead of just occasionally alluding to it like it is now.

(Although, bonus points for the Unskippable ad at the end of the video. Good series, although it already has plenty of viewers.)
I agree with what this man is saying. If I compare the paper mario or mario galaxy review to his more recent videos I see a difference. n style, in his jokes. It's kind of dumbed down. BUT in this review I kind of understand why he didn't go in depth in this review. It's because he's right! All this game was, was a quick cash in of the franchise. And Yahtzee and myself hate that to a pulp. They did it to sonic, to mario and to crash bandicoot and using Lara's bong body is a sad marketing strategy. Back to yahtzee's new style...I don't know it just doesn't seem the same.
 

kommando367

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a little immature but still good, i was kind hopeing he would mention the games big glitches
(i've confirmed it has two glitches that make it unfinishible)
 

theSecondLaw

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Anitoon said:
I agree with what this man is saying. If I compare the paper mario or mario galaxy review to his more recent videos I see a difference. n style, in his jokes. It's kind of dumbed down. BUT in this review I kind of understand why he didn't go in depth in this review. It's because he's right! All this game was, was a quick cash in of the franchise. And Yahtzee and myself hate that to a pulp. They did it to sonic, to mario and to crash bandicoot and using Lara's bong body is a sad marketing strategy. Back to yahtzee's new style...I don't know it just doesn't seem the same.
When the games major selling point is a nice pair of polygons, its hard to NOT dumb it down.
 

niloony

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Why is michael atkinson still alive ?... (Australian internet censorship/game censorship senator)

@ The whole yahtzee is getting old thing
I've only been watching the series for about a month so i'm not effected by nostalgia like the rest of you. But i have watched every episode since then and there are some fantastic ones and a few medicore ones. Yet overall he has kept to the same style and on average they are still just as good. You can hardly blame an underworld review for being without much depth other than that of Lara Crofts cleavage.
 

the farkinator

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Yahtzee is a dedicated man with a mission, and I say more power to him. However, I think he needs to do something a little more intresting. I agree with some of NewClassic's terrifyingly long rant. While Yahtzee is still good, he needs to make more puns and such. I.E. get a little more entertaining. (maybe some fanboy baiting.)
 

Metalrocks

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had to register my self for this now.
i always like his reviews and agree with him (at least with the games i have played) but i think he talks TRU down. i din't die many times as he claims. sure the camera is a problem and the controls, i agree but in his review he talks more bad about it then reviewing it. yes, there are many parts out but i still think it has gotten better since cristal took over. at least you can finally play it with the mouse which wasn't before.
the levels are better looking then before. they look more realistic and believable.
big tits, yes, but still better looking then in the other titles and i agree strongly with her face. that was a good one.
what i can't understand why he complains about the dirt on lara.
there are few things he din't mentiont about the game, like about the athlet to make lara's moves realistic and about the music, sound.
TRU is not perfect but still entertaining and yes, you must have played legend to understand underworld better about lara's mother.

it is still a funny review but it could have used more infos.

PS. yes, i know, my spelling sucks. german is still my strongest language.
 

pothb

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Dec 12, 2008
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Yahtzee needs to review Legacy of Kain from Eidos/Crystal Dynamics. It's old though... too bad. As for Tomb Raider... never bought one, but I've played em. Not absolutely horrible but I don't get why she's popular (aside from looks, and huge breasts, obviously).
 

Yahtzee Croshaw

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When is Yahtzee going to review an RTS? That's like the only genre he hasn't given a good thrashing yet, and I'd say it could use one.
 

Baby Tea

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Sep 18, 2008
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Ragnarok the Red said:
Epictank of Wintown said:
SYSTEM-J said:
*Snipped. Basically saying: It isn't a review, it's comedy under the guise of a review
*Snipped. Agreeing with previous post
*Snipped. Another agreeing person
Well, I would disagree ("Of course!" They say).
A review doesn't have to be an in depth, all bases covering, ending in a 'score' type of format. Some (many) are, but those things aren't mandatory for a review. Two of you mentioned either IGN or G4 as the review example (Admittedly, the IGN mention wasn't entirely 'serious'), which leads me to believe that a review is only a review, for you, if it falls into that format.

I stand by the Yahtzee is reviewing with comedy. You can state that I've missed the 'point' (As you already have), but the change from the earlier episodes to the current ones is undeniable. You call it the changing, or the 'evolution' (if you will) of his 'style'. I call it Yahtzee veering away from what he was supposed to deliver: A comedic review.

Also, I don't think Yahtzee give his viewers the credit to catch on that it isn't a review, must comedy in the guise of a review (And after reading some of the comments on the various ZP, I don't blame him). So I wouldn't give him the credit that's he'd do something like that.
 

Lanowar

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I'm still unsure how they plan on redoing this for a new market? The game's had it's moment in the sun. 9 games, a comic book series, figures and 2 movies is a pretty good run more then most franchises but it got old and you can twig it all you like but I can't see them pulling a miracle from there hat, only another turkey.

The thing itself was fine, it's just a rant about a certain game he's just played. This is in theory how most reviews are and how I usually end up reviewing a game when a friend asks. Just enjoy the ride and realise that yes Underworld is just boobs and mud but no wrestling maybe that's what the re-tooling could be?
 

Syndarr

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Woohoo! I've been hoping and praying for ZP to review TRU for some time now. I was on the QA test team for this game, so I was eager to see how the end result of the last six months of my life would measure up in the eyes of the esteemed Mr. Croshaw. :D

I won't lie--I was actually sort of hoping he'd like it, even though I knew he probably wouldn't. You spend that much time playing the same broken game over and over, becoming intimately familiar with all of its flaws, and you start to say to yourself, "How could -anyone- like this game?" And yet, at the same time, you want to be reassured that it wasn't all for nothing. You want people to play it and not notice the bugs that have been staring you in the face for weeks, mocking you because you know they'll never get fixed.

Either way, I wasn't disappointed. Yahtzee actually touched on some points that bothered the hell out of me and most of the other testers--the urn-smashing, the unresponsive kraken, and the tourist spiders, to name a few. You fight giant albino tarantulas in the Mexican jungles, and then you fight the exact same giant albino tarantulas in the Arctic wastelands. How the hell does that make any sense? And the wall-humping thing was one of those irritating bugs that showed up late in the testing cycle, much too late to actually get fixed no matter how much we complained. Sigh. :p

All I can say is, I'm glad the game's original ending was cut. If you think Lara is evil NOW, there would have been absolutely no doubt of that after watching what used to be the final cutscene. XD
 

thejaoodmaster

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Lanowar said:
I'm still unsure how they plan on redoing this for a new market? The game's had it's moment in the sun. 9 games, a comic book series, figures and 2 movies is a pretty good run more then most franchises but it got old and you can twig it all you like but I can't see them pulling a miracle from there hat, only another turkey.

The thing itself was fine, it's just a rant about a certain game he's just played. This is in theory how most reviews are and how I usually end up reviewing a game when a friend asks. Just enjoy the ride and realise that yes Underworld is just boobs and mud but no wrestling maybe that's what the re-tooling could be?
No seriously bro, where did you learn your English? (There is just a slight, infinitesimal subtlety in English that makes sentence fragments unacceptable and keeps twig from meaning tweak.)
 

jtee810

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Feb 28, 2008
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Just what I was thinking all along. Its bad enough that they keep churning out the same game over and over again. I have an idea, make a good Laura Croft game or KILL HER OFF. Keep up the good work Yahtzee.
 

yemathums

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I'm confused as to whether the review said Top Gear was bad or not, but in either case it's amazing, and should be loved by all. Just like these reviews!
 

Vorpals

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Ok, I liked this review, but my main nitpick is that half of the review consists of Yahtzee complaining about the fact that Lara has huge breasts, but the good part is that he leads it into something more meaningful.

Overall good review.
 

AskDrFreeman

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Many thanks and well done, Yahtzee - my sons and I make a point of watching all of your reviews, and you never disappoint. Brilliant stuff indeed...
 

Toiboi

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Dude I havent played one of these games since i was 12 why are they still making them lol
 

thejaoodmaster

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Toiboi said:
Dude I havent played one of these games since i was 12 why are they still making them lol
Dude lol, I have a six pack too, ROFL . I mean, I should also take a picture of it and post it online. LMAO then maybe my self esteem will rise. Or I might even get some web cam sex lolz.

Jk buddy, jk
 

Velios

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Haha "I'm mister brain hat"
BrightDeathFriend said:
Nice one Yahtsee! I like how you think that a game should have more value to it than just a game character's breasts! ...game devs obviously think that people are morons if a woman with big boobs who gets wet and dirty would make people buy a game!
On another forum I visit that's all they would talk about when they spoke of this game, her breast and ass. I could only laugh at the pimpled faced kiddies and shake my head in shame.
 

SirSchmoopy

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Baby Tea said:
THANK you Pedro. I wanted to jump all over this comment, but I knew I couldn't do it positively (ESPECIALLY with that ridiculous 'tl;dr' comment). Some new people just don't get it. But you, sir Pedro (Yeah, I totally knighted you), are the calming voice of...calm.
I'm only quoting this to tell you your avatar is awesome.
 

Metalrocks

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lol. i knew too he woul'nd like it. only because it has the title tomb raider, does not mean it's bad right away. it mide be same in a way but there are far more worser games out there then tomb raider.
 

Yahtzee Croshaw

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So what happened to the custom music at the beginning and the end of the clips? Has that been yanked or what? (copyright issues?).
 

Metalrocks

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Akalabeth said:
So what happened to the custom music at the beginning and the end of the clips? Has that been yanked or what? (copyright issues?).
it's not easy to find always the right music. i was really wondering how long he can pull this through. so i was not surprised to hear only one music. to be honest, i don't care.
 

Silveth

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@Baby Tea:

It's sad that you didn't *get* my post either.

My point was that this show is made by Yahtzee, and no one else, and it's his job to make us laugh and write a good review. How is it fair for us to bash him when he can't do that? What right to we have to expect him to make us laugh? None at all, and that was my point. That, and that NC is pathetic human being for premaking that diatribe.

Anyway, why do you defend him so? If you apparently don't like ZP anymore then get off this site and stop trying to prove you're right to everyone. Oh wait, this is the internet, nevermind, let's argue for eternity then.
 

Thirdman

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Vlane said:
Pretty good review to be honest but I still don't understand the "Lara == Bong" comparison.
I didn't get that either, maybe she's got a big arse. I never played them, I bought one of the games, once... and it crashed too much to play.
 

Doug

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Thirdman said:
Vlane said:
Pretty good review to be honest but I still don't understand the "Lara == Bong" comparison.
I didn't get that either, maybe she's got a big arse. I never played them, I bought one of the games, once... and it crashed too much to play.
Its more she's overly thin, but still has a pair of big breasts and a pert arse.

i.e. Not a real person (sorry to smash the illustion guys ;))
 

Danglybits

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Very entertaining and I have attempted to play the TR series too but I just couldn't stand the controls or the combat so I quit. The design of the character aside I didn't mind Lara on the PS because she seemed like a lady that sort of knew her stuff and her voice and accent were convincing and fairly real (if I'm wrong I'm sorry, its been a long ass time) but now I feel like they've added this desperate breathy-ness to the voice that says, "I'm totally hot for you; come play with me." I feel like every time gamers try to convince people that we aren't all totally sex starved, socially inept male kids looking for masturbation fodder it's kind of undermined by this kind of crap. The box art doesn't even feature her face, just a middriff and some titties.

But I kind of disagree with Yahtzee saying that they're trying to preserve her original design because I think that if anything they're adding a lot of Angelina Jolie to the mix as well.
 

Mooseman

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Its not just male boob wanting men buying it. My girlfriend has it and loves the game.... Although maybe therres something there i should worry about. hah
 

likalaruku

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lol. Guess the old girl wasn't up to learning any new tricks. Not any good ones anyway.
 

ROFLross

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I was going to rent this game to see how it was, I guess I don't have to now.
Thanks for helping me save money.
 

Metalrocks

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likalaruku said:
lol. Guess the old girl wasn't up to learning any new tricks. Not any good ones anyway.
well, one is new. you can use your guns wile hanging around or standing on a pole. that made things easier.

@roflross
you still can download the demo.
 

Baby Tea

Just Ask Frankie
Sep 18, 2008
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SirSchmoopy said:
I'm only quoting this to tell you your avatar is awesome.
I wuv you Rob. Put me in a show (How many times do you hear THAT?). It could be a pointless plug for the shirts! But I digress.

Silveth said:
My point was that this show is made by Yahtzee, and no one else, and it's his job to make us laugh and write a good review. How is it fair for us to bash him when he can't do that? What right to we have to expect him to make us laugh? None at all, and that was my point. That, and that NC is pathetic human being for premaking that diatribe.

Anyway, why do you defend him so? If you apparently don't like ZP anymore then get off this site and stop trying to prove you're right to everyone.
Why is it that people think when Nuke said 'ZP has changed', they automatically think he's saying 'ZP is bad'? There is a pretty big difference!
You said yourself it's his JOB to write a good REVIEW. Well I would agree 100%. What Nuke is saying is that there isn't anymore 'review' part! It's just rants and jokes about the game, gaming, or gamers in general (If games at all) that might tie into a barely review-esque line at the end. That's the problem he, myself, and many others have with the 'new' ZP. Nuke even said specifically that the show isn't bad. It changed. And that change is the source of guff. We would like reviews again. Not animated rants based on jokes that run on for too long.

And I defend Nuke because none of you know him. Everyone doing the front-line attacking on his post is a new member to the forums, who obviously has no idea who Nuke is. Unlike many of the new members, I'm not here for ZP. I think it's funny that someone would actually say 'if you don't like ZP, get off this site.'
The Escapist has FAR more to offer then simply ZP. And that's what I'm here for! I'm here for the forum community (And Unforgotten Realms...I wuv you Rob), and the people here-in. I've gotten to know Nuke, among many others, over the time I've been here and know that Nuke isn't this spotlight seeking egomaniac everyone (And by 'everyone' I mean 'the ZP fanboys who foamed at the mouth when reading one word of Nuke's post') says he is.
I'm not here to prove that either Nuke, or I, am right. Though I would say the change from the earlier ZP and the new ZP is pretty undeniable. I'm defending him because almost 100% of every negative comment about Nuke's post has completely misread, misinterpreted, glanced over (Assuming they know what he'll say), and/or missed the point of his post.
That, and Nuke is a stand up guy, a good writer, and a strong contributor to the Escapist forums and site as a whole.
 

Labyrinth

Escapist Points: 9001
Oct 14, 2007
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Silveth said:
If you apparently don't like ZP anymore then get off this site.
Hi. I'm from Escapist. I've never posted before in a Zero Punctuation thread, and don't watch the videos very often. In fact, you could say that while I chuckle at ZP, I'm not a fan. Certainly not a rabid one.

I'm also a part of a much larger community which in fact shuns the comments on Zero Punctuation because we much prefer actual conversation. We lurk in regions such as the User Reviews, Roleplay and Off Topic sections. There's even a part for Gaming Discussion for the so inclined. The Escapist is much bigger than you think. If you don't like that, feel free to leave the site.

In response to comments on Nuke Lassic's review, I would like to say that he has a point. While the earlier production was not as slick as the later ones, it was more game based. Tangent jokes, while amusing, aren't such good things for the content level.
 

Schizzy

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At the risk of being branded an outcast, here goes:

I absolutely did not a laugh at anything in this episode. I really wish I could, but I just couldn't.

Like one said, they can't all be winners.
 

Omega87

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danebot said:
EDIT: Are you kidding me up there with that copy-pasted text wall?

You have something you desperately want people to read, and yet you say nothing. You perched like a sniper waiting for the video to be released so you could soapbox in the first few posts on a site that is full of peple who enjoy the videos. The worst part is, you think it's worth reading, and that you're brillant! Thanks for your comments, but next time I want that kind of counter-opinion in my house I'll just invite a Jehova's witness in for coffee.
Oh my god, most definately qouted for truth. 100% agree.
 

LisaB1138

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I adore Yahtzee, but this "review" disappointed me greatly. It was not a review so much as it was one long breast and ass joke. I don't think he played the game very far, certainly not far enough to know that there weren't any boss fights.

I mean, his complaint that "we all know what the gameplay is" could be said about *any* sequel this year, yet these games got skewered for specific gameplay issues, not generically washed with the "it's Tomb Raider; let's all hate on it" brush.

I was actually looking forward to this review. After Yahtzee's extreme restraint in pulling out the breast jokes in his Soul Caliber 4 review (despite being accosted with breasts five times the size of Lara's and far more uncovered,) I had hope that perhaps he might avoid trite and overused comments regarding the franchise and treat the game as a *game* and not as a standup routine worthy of an off-strip, side-room Vegas comic. Clearly my hope was misplaced.
 

Sir_Chumley_Warner

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Hmm, I'm surprised he didn't mention about filling every room you come across with some kind of water via the magic of ancient fluid inducing timing puzzles. Curious.
 

Stabby Joe

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Ah yes, Tomb Raider, while not on the same level as Sonic, the popularity has slipped big time.

Loving the Jason connection by the way!
 

LisaB1138

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Sir_Chumley_Warner said:
Hmm, I'm surprised he didn't mention about filling every room you come across with some kind of water via the magic of ancient fluid inducing timing puzzles. Curious.
That's because you only did it in ONE room. And I don't think he played the game that far anyway.
 

Fire Daemon

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Dec 18, 2007
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Silveth said:
None at all, and that was my point. That, and that NC is pathetic human being for premaking that diatribe.

Anyway, why do you defend him so? If you apparently don't like ZP anymore then get off this site and stop trying to prove you're right to everyone. Oh wait, this is the internet, nevermind, let's argue for eternity then.
I would have you know that this is not Yahtzee's website and that there is actually a large number of people who come to this website for other reasons then Zero Punctuation. In fact I do believe that there are a large number of people who no longer watch ZP or, maybe, never have. Looking around at the Escapist, even at the page around a ZP video, it is clear that the website is more than just ZP. There is the articles at the bottom of the page, two Escapist show advert, two Planetside War adverts and links to all the different features, news, columns and the forums at the top of the page. I fail to understand how one who composes himself intelligently, such as yourself, is able to so narrow mindedly ignore all these things and think that the Escapist is "Yahtzee's website". At the end of each ZP there is his website address for you to go and check out, why do you all still think that The Escapsit is for ZP and nothing else. The stupidity is astounding, I still can't believe that people would be so narrow minded.

I would also have you know that Newclassic is not a pathetic human being. The fact that you label him as such because he expressed his opinions is frankly nothing sort of disgusting. A human is able to disagree with others and to voice his opinions without being labeled as pathetic, if anything having the guts to post his opinions to the fans of ZP makes someone much more than pathetic, in my mind anyway. The fact that you think of someone as pathetic because they disagree with you on the quality of a video is the most idiotic thing I have seen in a long time. Is it to hard to argue with people without resulting to name calling?

Now, you thinking that him pre-making that rant is pathetic also does not make much sense. I read the early draft of that rant (I even pointed out a missing letter) and the majority of it had little to do with the actual review then ZP as a whole. He didn't criticize this weeks review with a pre-prepared rant, he criticized ZP with a pre-prepared rant. Seeing as how the general consensus is that the rant will be better suited for it's own thread why is it wrong that he wrote this before this weeks ZP aired? If he wrote the rant in a separate thread before this one aired would be such a big deal? No it would not and I don't think this anything to do with comment etiquette (if such an absurd notion exists). I think the reason you think the reason you think posting a pre-prepared rant is pathetic is because that post does not agree with your tastes. Frankly, I think that, that is pathetic.

The Escapist is often described as "The last bastion of sanity on the Internet" and this has always been something that I have disagreed with. While I did disagree with that statement I always felt like this is a nice and friendly place, a place where everyone is generally nice to everyone else. However looking over this thread it seems that I may have been wrong. I've always thought that even those that fight and suck up in the ZP thread are genuinely nice people and that if they wanted could become the friends of everyone else that stays away from the ZP thread. Hell, I've even defended you lot at some points. For a while I used a ZP avatar as a very small protest against the pre-conceived notion that everyone with a ZP avatar is an idiot and a fanboy. But looking over this thread, especially at the snarky comments such as yours, I can't help but feel like this belief has been a lie, as if this place isn't as nice as it once was. Maybe I was foolish to thing that Neclassic's rant will be well recieved but I don't think I was foolish to expect him not to be insulted personally.
 

fisk

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"Funny, funny, humor"???? Its neither funny, nor a humor, there is nothing "english" either! If someone (apparently a lot) gets horny watching variety of attributes and items being abused and stuck everywhere by a tiny little triangle, representing someone's sexual past present or dreams - thats what funny is..or at least it was..

ZP is everything but game reviewer, and I don't get the people who dislike him, why get so mad, considering the essence of his work..
 

Cahlee

New member
Aug 21, 2008
530
0
0
spudpuffin said:
NewClassic said:
look m8 u need a girl were not here for comparisons to the "old days" were here for 4 minutes of a guy making semi-resonable arguments and nit picking that hilarious!
Let me explain to you why there is a comment section. So people who watch Yahtzee can comment on and/or discuss what they've seen. NewClassic isn't bashing it, he's simply putting forth his opinion in a well constructed and reasonable manner.

This isn't the the praise section. If you really enjoy Yahtzee and think that everything he does is dusted with gold and made of rainbows then I can respect that. Good for you. Now, do everyone else a favour and give them the same courtesy.
 

Galletea

Inexplicably Awesome
Sep 27, 2008
2,877
0
0
Omega87 said:
danebot said:
EDIT: Are you kidding me up there with that copy-pasted text wall?

You have something you desperately want people to read, and yet you say nothing. You perched like a sniper waiting for the video to be released so you could soapbox in the first few posts on a site that is full of peple who enjoy the videos. The worst part is, you think it's worth reading, and that you're brillant! Thanks for your comments, but next time I want that kind of counter-opinion in my house I'll just invite a Jehova's witness in for coffee.
Oh my god, most definately qouted for truth. 100% agree.
I'd just like to point out the obvious here. It's a comments page, not a praise page. NewClassic's rant is as valid as your opinion, just more eloquent. And I agree with him. Yahtzee might still be funny, but I'd prefer to hear a little about the actual game.
Edit. Ninja'd. Bugger. With exactly the same comment though, so great minds and all that ;)
 

SYSTEM-J

New member
Aug 7, 2008
88
0
0
Baby Tea said:
Well, I would disagree ("Of course!" They say).
A review doesn't have to be an in depth, all bases covering, ending in a 'score' type of format. Some (many) are, but those things aren't mandatory for a review. Two of you mentioned either IGN or G4 as the review example (Admittedly, the IGN mention wasn't entirely 'serious'), which leads me to believe that a review is only a review, for you, if it falls into that format.

I stand by the Yahtzee is reviewing with comedy. You can state that I've missed the 'point' (As you already have), but the change from the earlier episodes to the current ones is undeniable. You call it the changing, or the 'evolution' (if you will) of his 'style'. I call it Yahtzee veering away from what he was supposed to deliver: A comedic review.

Also, I don't think Yahtzee give his viewers the credit to catch on that it isn't a review, must comedy in the guise of a review (And after reading some of the comments on the various ZP, I don't blame him). So I wouldn't give him the credit that's he'd do something like that.
I don't personally believe that a review should give a score, should cover all possible areas of analysis and even should be in depth. I've written concept reviews in my time. I'm talking more about the underlying journalistic principles of the reviewer. Journalism has its own code of ethics and standards and videogames journalism is no different, with special categories of ethics and standards unique to the medium. Yahtzee takes a sledgehammer to them. In fact, he quite deliberately goes against certain standards (and even makes light of that in some reviews) for comic effect, which is possibly why he calls himself a "professional troll". I'm not simply talking about him being a bad journalist, I'm talking about him deliberately and conscious going against journalism to generate laughs.

I didn't really understand your last paragraph, so I'll have to guess what it's supposed to say. I don't think Yahtzee is the type to dumb down for the masses and make apparent what he's doing. This is the guy who referenced Proust's "À la Recherche du Temps Perdu" as a throwaway gag, a reference that would probably have a lot of gamers reaching for Wikipedia. Again, the "professional troll" line indicates he knows he's going to wind up a lot of people by turning what is ostensibly a review into a hilarious diatribe that abuses the format, and by having mailbag showdowns (incidentally, his review of SSB: Brawl was a classic example of How Not To Review A Game) he basks in the ire he creates, rather than clarifying "These aren't proper reviews you know, so don't get angry on account of me".

To be perfectly honest, I think this is a bit moot. While the quantity of jokes has increased of late, the quantity of review hasn't even gone down that much. I watched three or four older reviews and contrasted them with three or four from the last two months and the change is hardly pronounced. The main difference in the humour/comedy axis is that these days he'll vary the formula by throwing in something that is mostly comedy and little review. He did so this week because TR: Underworld gives him very little to say. Believe me, as a reviewer the scourge of your existence is the generic, mediocre product that is a nightmare to write a review about because there's nothing to say. Jeremy Clarkson actually quit the old, serious Top Gear for exactly this reason. Finding something to say each week about something utterly unexceptional and unoriginal is a nightmare.

I think this whole issue can be summarised by what someone said above: having watched the entire series for the first time, he found some mediocrity and some brilliance but no real drop in quality. After over a year of weekly episodes, the likelihood is that the critics have just got bored of ZP, plain and simple. Trying to dress that up as objective critique of craft with a strategically placed rant is cute but misguided. I think I've read at least one "not as good as it used to be" and one "return to form" post in every single ZP discussion thread for the last six months of videos. Sometimes the "return to form" was on an episode I thought was very mediocre, sometimes the "not as good" video was one that I had rewatched out of enjoyment. Sometimes the complete opposite. The only real difference with New Classic's post (apart from the cat picture) is that he bases it on what I consider a completely false assumption, and I think I've given plenty of justification for calling it false in the last few posts. If you don't agree after reading this post, I don't think you're going to agree at all.
 

Blind0bserver

Blatant Narcissist
Mar 31, 2008
1,454
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0
Silveth said:
My point was that this show is made by Yahtzee, and no one else, and it's his job to make us laugh and write a good review. How is it fair for us to bash him when he can't do that? What right to we have to expect him to make us laugh? None at all, and that was my point. That, and that NC is pathetic human being for premaking that diatribe.

Anyway, why do you defend him so? If you apparently don't like ZP anymore then get off this site and stop trying to prove you're right to everyone. Oh wait, this is the internet, nevermind, let's argue for eternity then.
First of all, where the criky fuck do you get off calling an obviously well-versed and well respected member of this community that you've never even met before that he's a "pathetic human being".

With the initial outrage out of the way, we can move on. You need to realize something, bub. This thread we're in is a "comments page", the novel concept of which is that you write comments in it. Most of those "comments" usually amount to worthless dribble and one sentence posts (I've counted at least five people who have only said "I'M MR. BRAIN HAT!"), but its a comment section nevertheless. Considering that NewClassic's points are valid, they're well explained, and he isn't trying to convert anyone over to his way of thinking, then this isn't even an issue. The only reason you give a damn is because he said something that is in disagreement with your beliefs.

Second, it is very much Yahtzee's job to make us laugh and write a good review. Key word there is "job". He gets paid for it, he has merchandise because of it, and he's received internet stardom as a result of it. We, as the target audience, have every right to comment on his work any way we damn well choose.

Oh, and one last thing: this is not Yahtzee's website. The Escapist is an online magazine that has existed for several years before ZP showed up and it's going to go on existing long after it's gone. There's far more to this place than just Yahtzee, and if you venture out of the dank cave that is this comment's page you might see a few things that may catch your eye. In the meantime, if you can't be bothered, maybe you should take your own advice and get out. If your only going to show the people here disrespect we don't want you here.
 

Therumancer

Citation Needed
Nov 28, 2007
9,909
0
0
Well this has been up for a day already which makes my response a bit late.

In general I think Yahtzee is right. Lara Croft might want to retire from games and start making hard core XXX rated kink movies. I mean honestly, the selling point has so far been the sex appeal of the character. Sure in the beginning the series was revolutionary and lauded with praise for a potential it never was able to reach.

Honestly I think the bad camera in games like this is a design desician and shows part of the flaw of the genere. Without those "leaps of faith", horrendously badly designed "perfect timing" jumps and other things the game just wouldn't be very challenging. It's one of those situations where it seems bad design became a defining feature of the game series.

Honestly I've found that imitators like "Uncharted" have continued this way of doing the genere, as I spent as much time trying to guess where I was supposed to go (ie where to jump next in a sequence), than I did actually progressing through the game it seemed.


So basically they might as well just use Lara Croft's sex appeal in the most obvious forum for it: animated sex movies. I mean honestly those aspects of the character are aguably the ones that worked the way they were supposed to from the very beginning. >:)



In response to the other comments:

I think Yahtzee has achieved enough of a fan base right now where not everyone is going to be happy with everything he does. As the number of people watching him grows, so will the negative feedback. Just like in nearly anything game related I expect eventually his criticism will be overwhelmingly negative. To some extent the more stinking bile thrown at something online (ie the more people who care enough to say something) the more successful it is.

It should also be noted that Yahtzee has received criticism from the very beginning that he was a humourist and not an entirely serious reviewer. This includes me incidently. To some extent I think he shifted a bit in tone due to what he felt the fans wanted. However he is still a bile spewing comedic reviewer, and arguably one of the more entertaining prescences for game geeks on the Internet. ZP certainly livens up my week, and I've actually found myself looking forward to it.

My biggest concern is that Yahtzee will burn out and ZP will disappear. I mean it will happen eventually (he's only human) but I hope it occurs later rather than sooner.

>>>----Therumancer--->
 

Goff256

New member
Jan 15, 2009
1
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0
Disclaimer: This is in fact my first post, despite the fact that I've been watching for a while. I know that means most of you will just ignore it, so I figured it would be a good idea to just put this up here to save you all the trouble.

It seems the topic of discussion is the purpose of Yahtzee, which I think he points out very clearly. I'm sure everyone here watched the Halo 3 video, so I think I will point out one thing. "All of the other reviews have put me in an awkward position...." which is him calling himself a reviewer. He then goes on, in the "Mailbag Showdown" to state that he sees a review as more than some numeric thing. -That- is why he doesn't do things like average. I think he used the word review a few times in there, too. He calls himself a reviewer, says he's reviewing things, which generally means he's a review.

Now the next question is really "What makes Yahtzee great?" I would say that it's his ability to A) make relevant jokes B) review while doing A and C) ... .... well, there really isn't a C, but you get my point. He reviews games, makes jokes, people laugh. He -just- makes jokes and some people laugh. Other people make huge posts like NC did. And I know you can't please everyone, but when you have a winning formula -stick with it-. Anyway, those are just my two cents.

Of course, my post will be generally ignored, distorted, or otherwise used to somehow say that I dislike ZP. People will tell me to "gtfo", or simply tell me I "don't get it", so I guess this was all a waste of time. I just felt like it needed to be said.

That aside, this wasn't actually funny. I mean, I laughed a couple of times, it had it's moments. Overall, though, this seemed to lack the sort of charm that drew me to this video series in the first place. It isn't -bad-, it just isn't what it used to be.
 

Taranaich

New member
Jul 30, 2008
57
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0
I guess it's kind of predictable Yahtzee would devolve into one big cavalcade of breast & bottom jokes chasing each other like Benny Hill characters to the tune of Yakety-sax, but a lot of them fell flat because:

a. Lara underwent a full cup-size reduction for Legend (which was picked up as a news story in itself by many gaming and non-gaming media), in an offensively transparent attempt to play down accusations of sexism and feminine objectification. Unfortunately the fact that they keep her ludicrously long legs, waist and cupie-doll features undermines their effort since she's clearly meant to be a cartoonish figure and not a realistic representation of a female. They should have either kept her cartoonish proportions and extended it to other characters a la Team Fortress, or made her entirely realistic. Thus all the "big boob" jokes fall kind of flat when you realise the Lara of Legend & Underworld is a modest C-cup now.

b. The "boobs on the cover" jabs would've made a lot more sense if LARA'S TORSO WASN'T OBSCURED BY THE TITLE, which Yahtzee even illustrates, calling attention to his own nonsense. Look at the cover, you can barely see her tits! I'd say it's her midriff, hips and thighs that are more the cause of excitable teens' cold sweats in this case than her barely-seen chest.

c. ... They're just tits, Yahtzee. They're a normal part of the female anatomy. Why not criticise other games for showing impossibly muscular men on the cover with gigantic guns and rippling biceps or giant robots blowing stuff up on their covers? They're just as transparent as sticking a buxom babe on the cover. Besides, a preoccupation with Lara's figure is playing right into Crystal Dynamic's hands - a review that makes no mention whatsoever of Lara's appearance would've been refreshing, and it would've shown that their attempt to provoke discussion and attention had failed. It takes attention away from the stuff that matters - the gameplay.

d. "Anything more than a handful is a waste" is completely true - a girl with large breasts being with a guy who has such a myopic appreciation of them is a tragic waste. The spelunking joke: Jesus, if you think LARA's tits are big I dread to imagine what you'd think about Fuko, Merilyn Sakova or Milena Velba. Small reference pools in your porn, Yahtzee.

Yes I did make an entire humourless post about amble bosoms. I make no apologies for it, for the subject is very dear to me. Anyway, disregarding the boobs:

The criticism of Lara being an evil nutcase: when was this a point of contention? Lara was always a deeply troubled anti-hero motivated by greed with a death wish, she was never a heroic protagonist in the traditional cliche sense. That's what makes her interesting. It's as silly as criticizing God of War because Kratos is a freaking psychopath: that's point of the character. She steals stuff from ruins because she's a collector of fine artifacts, she kills rare animals because the Croft Family are English aristocrats who probably have a history of big game hunting, she kills her competitors because she's not quite right in the head. I'd take her callousness to endangered species and merciless approach to rival tomb raiders over her silly WOT AVE OI BECUM hand wringing in Legend any day. She isn't Indiana "It Belongs in a Museum" Jones, she's Lara "It Belongs In My House Displayed Between Excalibur And My Mounted Tyrannosaurus Head" Croft.

Finally, the fact that the games are just the same with a change of scenery: while progress and evolution is always a good thing, sometimes if something works well (or at least competently), it's better than ditching it for something that fails. Tomb Raider, for me, was always about exploring awesome ruins, soaking up the atmosphere and solving neat puzzles. The fact that the combat-heavy games away from ruins like Angel of Darkness failed indicates this is a major selling point for the series. It's more akin to those Flight Simulator games, except with a story, and set in fantastic ruins. Thus Tomb Raider always has a special place in my heart.
 

Baby Tea

Just Ask Frankie
Sep 18, 2008
4,687
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SYSTEM-J said:
I don't personally believe that a review should give a score, should cover all possible areas of analysis and even should be in depth. I've written concept reviews in my time. I'm talking more about the underlying journalistic principles of the reviewer. Journalism has its own code of ethics and standards and videogames journalism is no different, with special categories of ethics and standards unique to the medium. Yahtzee takes a sledgehammer to them. In fact, he quite deliberately goes against certain standards (and even makes light of that in some reviews) for comic effect, which is possibly why he calls himself a "professional troll". I'm not simply talking about him being a bad journalist, I'm talking about him deliberately and conscious going against journalism to generate laughs.
Just because he goes against certain practices and standards, doesn't mean it's any less of a review. It might be, when seen from a writer's perspective, a piss poor actual 'review', but a review it still is. So whether he's reviewing for laughs or for trolling purposes (Or both), he's still reviewing.

SYSTEM-J said:
I didn't really understand your last paragraph, so I'll have to guess what it's supposed to say. I don't think Yahtzee is the type to dumb down for the masses and make apparent what he's doing. This is the guy who referenced Proust's "À la Recherche du Temps Perdu" as a throwaway gag, a reference that would probably have a lot of gamers reaching for Wikipedia. Again, the "professional troll" line indicates he knows he's going to wind up a lot of people by turning what is ostensibly a review into a hilarious diatribe that abuses the format, and by having mailbag showdowns (incidentally, his review of SSB: Brawl was a classic example of How Not To Review A Game) he basks in the ire he creates, rather than clarifying "These aren't proper reviews you know, so don't get angry on account of me".
I'd say the fact that he didn't say that only solidifies my point that these videos are, indeed, reviews. He calls them reviews himself! And whether or not they are done 'properly' is irrelevant. Whether poor or stellar, they are still reviews.


SYSTEM-J said:
Believe me, as a reviewer the scourge of your existence is the generic, mediocre product that is a nightmare to write a review about because there's nothing to say. Jeremy Clarkson actually quit the old, serious Top Gear for exactly this reason. Finding something to say each week about something utterly unexceptional and unoriginal is a nightmare.
Then don't review it! If it's SO beneath him, review something else! I agree that wading through the mundane can suck, but even in his year-end show he said there were plenty of popular games he glanced over. Review those, then! Review one that's interesting! If he is indeed a 'professional troll', you think he'd do the games that actually had a solid fanbase (Gears of War, perhaps), rather then one we all figured would suck (TR) just so he could waste 3 minutes on boob jokes.


SYSTEM-J said:
The only real difference with New Classic's post (apart from the cat picture) is that he bases it on what I consider a completely false assumption, and I think I've given plenty of justification for calling it false in the last few posts. If you don't agree after reading this post, I don't think you're going to agree at all.
Well I don't think you've given 'plenty of justification'. While your responses have been far better written and thought out then many of the other nay-sayers, I don't consider the 'assumption' that ZP is actually a review of sorts (However unorthodox) to be false.
It appears we'll have to agree to disagree.
 

SYSTEM-J

New member
Aug 7, 2008
88
0
0
Baby Tea said:
Just because he goes against certain practices and standards, doesn't mean it's any less of a review. It might be, when seen from a writer's perspective, a piss poor actual 'review', but a review it still is. So whether he's reviewing for laughs or for trolling purposes (Or both), he's still reviewing...

I'd say the fact that he didn't say that only solidifies my point that these videos are, indeed, reviews. He calls them reviews himself! And whether or not they are done 'properly' is irrelevant. Whether poor or stellar, they are still reviews...

...Well I don't think you've given 'plenty of justification'. While your responses have been far better written and thought out then many of the other nay-sayers, I don't consider the 'assumption' that ZP is actually a review of sorts (However unorthodox) to be false.
It appears we'll have to agree to disagree.
I think you're speaking on behalf of New Classic a little too much here, and deviating from the point he was making. All of these replies are stating the same thing: ZP is, in some respect, a review show. Which I was never denying and was never the issue. As I've said, the issue is that of emphasis. New Classic says this:

For the most part, Zero Punctuation is no longer about game reviews, and is now about gaming-related humor.
The point he's making is that the emphasis of ZP has shifted away from the reviews and towards the humour. The point I'm making is that ZP always emphasised the comedy over the review. In short, New Classic's mistaken assumption is not that ZP is a review show of some form, but that ZP was (and should still be) about the review first and foremost.

Then don't review it! If it's SO beneath him, review something else! I agree that wading through the mundane can suck, but even in his year-end show he said there were plenty of popular games he glanced over. Review those, then! Review one that's interesting! If he is indeed a 'professional troll', you think he'd do the games that actually had a solid fanbase (Gears of War, perhaps), rather then one we all figured would suck (TR) just so he could waste 3 minutes on boob jokes.
It's not about it being beneath him, but rather about it being boring to talk about. And what makes you think a game being popular makes it any more interesting to talk about? One of his closing credits captions said that every time he began to review Far Cry 2, something more interesting came along. It's hardly as though Tomb Raider is an unsuccessful franchise- it wouldn't be up to eight sequels if people weren't buying them in large numbers.

Also, as I've already said, having a review with almost no review breaks up the routine a bit and gives us something different. Listening to Yahtzee go through the motions over a mediocre game like GOW2 that he obviously doesn't care about is less interesting than four minutes of well-observed humour about the exploits of one of gaming's ultimate icons.
 

Hamster at Dawn

It's Hazard Time!
Mar 19, 2008
1,650
0
0
Loved the lactose intolerant hindu and the autistic kid hooked up to an IV of sherbet. That's pure comedy gold right there.
Great start to 2009!
 

Chickenlittle

New member
Sep 4, 2008
687
0
0
Hamster at Dawn said:
Loved the lactose intolerant hindu and the autistic kid hooked up to an IV of sherbet. That's pure comedy gold right there.
Great start to 2009!
Funny, if he was on an actual comedy show, he wouldn't last 5 episodes.
 

acebrainbuster

New member
Oct 13, 2008
44
0
0
lura croft sucks in general no matter what sure i was amazed and astonished the first game and i never really cared about the boob factor the ***** needs to die every possible death shes given to he enemys and get aped or something at least that would be a funny ass joke
 

sniper0501

New member
Jan 15, 2009
91
0
0
I'm a big Zero Punctuation fan and this wasn't Yahtzees worst video but apparently everyone who disliked it wished to voice that opinion and i'm fine with that it's just the fact people who like it have to disagree with the people who don't.....It's your opinion and people shouldn't judge you because of it.
 

antipunt

New member
Jan 3, 2009
3,035
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0
This review is gonna piss of a lot of TR fans lol

but it's so true. Lara's boobs are like giant pink elephant boobs flaoting around in everyone's mind
 

PedroSteckecilo

Mexican Fugitive
Feb 7, 2008
6,732
0
0
antipunt said:
This review is gonna piss of a lot of TR fans lol

but it's so true. Lara's boobs are like giant pink elephant boobs flaoting around in everyone's mind
I didn't know there were any Tomb Raider fans devout enough to be annoyed at someone saying the series sucked. Most Tomb Raider fans are like the saner Sonic fans, they acknowledge that the series is basically dead and play the new games purely for the sake of brand loyalty and nostalgia.
 

BlueInkAlchemist

Ridiculously Awesome
Jun 4, 2008
2,231
0
0
Let's not forget that this is from a man who, as a young Internet gutter-snipe, told us Why It Would Kick Arse To Be Lara Croft [http://www.fullyramblomatic.com/essays/lara.htm].
 

VMerken

New member
Sep 12, 2007
130
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0
I agree. Lara is evil. The sort who's first problem solving technique is blazing the guns. She does it with such glee and enthusiasm, it's touching really.

The thing which is bothering me the most, however, is the actual Underworld game. Or rather, what it continues to be. Crystal Dynamics has pretty much taken away what I held most dear in the TR series (the sense of exploration, vast non-linear locales) and is continuing to do so with a vehemence similar to the one which eventually got Eidos to hit an immovable, infinitely big brick wall.

Graphically, there are some very pretty things in there and to be honest, some of them blew me away with the creativity behind them. Music's also still there - a Crystal Dynamics staple I don't want them to shy away from. But, that's not enough to be what once was Tomb Raider. You were supposed to be this archaeologist Indiana Jones wannabe who fought and explored her way through enormous scenery, alone. Tons of stuff could get you killed: the creatures, the traps, miscalculated jumps, etc. Action and consequence.

Now, you're parkouring along a linear path, with the background elements you need to "use" brightly coloured so that there's no mistake as to where you have to go. You've become immortal, since checkpointing and continuing is overly generous - not to mention fully restores Lara's health. Why are there still "medkits", even? Oh yeah, as with the treasures and relics which are strewn along the road: to give some sort of "impression" that there are items in this game.

Also, you're no longer alone, apparently. Apparently, Lara needs someone "at home" to talk to from time to time. And boy, what deep, interesting characters and dialogues they are. Absolutely unforgettable and a serious boon to Lara's quest, helping her out in every possible way. For me however, they help kill the sense of solitude, they help kill the game.

So yeah, I agree with this opinion piece.

I wonder if Crystal Dynamics will ever rediscover what made the originals work so well. Come on - don't get all Bethesda Game Studios on us.
 

-Rykan-

New member
May 3, 2008
5
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0
Ahem, excusé moi! I've just done an undergraduate degree in archaeology, with a dissertation on Archaeology in the Media, and I did in fact point out,

"The common view of the action hero archaeologist is actually a bad one. It may sell tickets and increase viewing figures, but the representations are usually distorted, and could encourage looting and general detrimental behavior. Indiana Jones is incredibly popular, but far from the perfect example of an archaeologist ... and Lara Croft ... These are the popular representations. Fortunately the representations on television are starting to balance this out. The documentaries and series are showing an ever increasingly more accurate view of archaeology ..." blah, blah, boring archaeology stuff.

So don't worry, the field has been notified ;)


Also, I have more than a handful, I don't mean to be wasteful :(
 

Sir_Chumley_Warner

New member
Dec 25, 2008
24
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0
Taranaich said:
I guess it's kind of predictable Yahtzee would devolve into one big cavalcade of breast & bottom jokes...

...Thus Tomb Raider always has a special place in my heart.
I completely agree, this review lacked the finesse of his usual reviews and a new take on it would have been refreshing and has a lot of potential to be funny. Still, you can't win 'em all eh? I decided not to quote the whole thing though so as not to clog up the page.
 

Omega87

New member
Dec 20, 2008
22
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0
galletea said:
Omega87 said:
danebot said:
EDIT: Are you kidding me up there with that copy-pasted text wall?

You have something you desperately want people to read, and yet you say nothing. You perched like a sniper waiting for the video to be released so you could soapbox in the first few posts on a site that is full of peple who enjoy the videos. The worst part is, you think it's worth reading, and that you're brillant! Thanks for your comments, but next time I want that kind of counter-opinion in my house I'll just invite a Jehova's witness in for coffee.
Oh my god, most definately qouted for truth. 100% agree.
I'd just like to point out the obvious here. It's a comments page, not a praise page. NewClassic's rant is as valid as your opinion, just more eloquent. And I agree with him. Yahtzee might still be funny, but I'd prefer to hear a little about the actual game.
Edit. Ninja'd. Bugger. With exactly the same comment though, so great minds and all that ;)
So you would rather I reposted my entire rant in which essencially I say the same thing as this fellow here? Or just use the qoute button? If I just wanted to praise him i'd mention how pretty his eyes were, or how much his hairstyle rocks. Instead I just wanted to point out the truth and validity of his previous statement.