Zero Punctuation: Webcomics

[Mr. Smiles]

I've said it it before: Tim Buckley is a tool, immature, jerk, whatever. But giving that as a reason that CAD sucks is the same as saying GNR sucks because Axl Rose is a jerk.

There is one major difference between Axl Rose and Tim Buckley, that being that Axl has talent. Yes, he's a bigoted, cop-biting, douchebag, but he can write music like nobody's business. The same can NOT be said about Buckley. Buckley sucks as an artist (as has already been pointed out) and can't write webcomic script to save his life. That coupled with the fact that he's an egotistical doucher outside of his comic makes him a no talent dick, as opposed to Axl who is a talented dick.

 

[Luthorcrow]

CAD and Penny Arcade are what you get in the waiting room to Hell. How anyone can waste precious moments of their lives reading that dreck. These comics are on the level of Garfield or Family Circus. Not funny, not clever.

 

[El Mexicutioner]

I've said it it before: Tim Buckley is a tool, immature, jerk, whatever. But giving that as a reason that CAD sucks is the same as saying GNR sucks because Axl Rose is a jerk.

Your right. CAD sucks all by itself. =P

 

[mark_n_b]

I read an earlier post describing yahtzee's problems with CAD and was a little disappointed to see that this weeks vid was, in places, a verbatim regurgitation. This was not my favorite zero punctuation.

That being said, I still enjoyed it, I still found it understandable and true, and my opinions of CAD are not super high. I don't hate the dude or his site or think he deserves any less than what he's got. But I don't find the artwork exceptional (I would even suggest it is devolving to a degree), I don't find it funny (though he does have an informed perspective), and I don't like his choices in the attitude he puts forward(never mind the forums, his FAQ moves from standard to dickish in regular intervals, if you don't want to linkshare or see my webcomic, delete the email, lose the FAQ entry, and stop being an ass about it), and I thought the miscarriage thing was a bad call... I am charitably assuming that this came from a real life experience or core belief, I do not care to look into the matter any more, so I won't say it was in poor taste... But, seriously, wrong soapbox for this message.

Having researched this issue enough in my opinion I am returning to my previous state of NOT being a CAD reader.

Yahtzee's opinionated posts are always just that, opinionated. But they are honest and justified opinions, and opinions I tend to agree with. In the end, Buckley releases a strip multiple times a week and follows a business model. This is what puts him on the PA level. Unfortunate that the comic isn't (in my opinion) better, I might actually read it.

 

[PurpleRain]

I don't hate CAD. I read it every so often. I don't see this big hate rant on it. I could understand if people pentented this anger against... hmm, lets say the KKK, for a sec. I don't find anything wrong with CAD. I like Penny Arcade equally, and I'm a huge XKCD and Concerned fan too. Sigh, this is pointless.

 

[Tempdude0]

I find it annoying that some people say that, no matter how funny some people may find it, CAD is not, in fact, done well. What annoys me about this is, again, its a personal point of view, an opinion and nothing more. Webcomics aren't cars, there's no base standard for what makes it "good" beyond what YOU feel makes a webcomic good. I like CAD, its not the best webcomic I've ever read, but its ok, and I think the miscarriage arc was done well, if not completely tastefully. Some people will say I'm wrong and there is no way to believe its good, even if people like it, but to that I say this: Fuck You.

Because there aren't established meathods of detirmining the quality of writing beyond ones enjoyment of it. Nooooo, it's all OPINION maaan. If you don't like it, it's what you feeeeeel duuuude, ya know? I hate that argument because it means everything, EVERYZING! is good if people like it. You can like something and it still be bad. Don't worry, we all have guilty pleasures. The main thing is to just be able to admit that you like something that isn't really that good.

What is it with you people and having to justify your love of something? Why must it be good and deep and well written to be the object of your affections? Where does it say "If people like it, it's good"? Good grief, a little objectivity here please?

No, Dumbass, it means what one person thinks makes good writing is not necessarily the same thing. And, if you'd read what I wrote properly, you would realize as opposed to it being EVERYTHING is subjective, I just feel things like webcomics are more up to personal opinion.

Its like this, one critic may say some author is a good author, and his book is written well, but another disagrees and says it was tasteless and done badly. You read the book, and find you enjoy it. Now obviously, since you and the second critic have a difference of opinion, the content which makes something good or worth reading is different for you.

So no, people don't necessarily like something DESPITE how bad it is, they actually think its good, because their view of what makes something good is DIFFERENT.

Could you clarify that first statement? It looks as though you're agreeing that webcomics are subjective, yet you're saying something about blah blah blah...I can't even get what you're trying to say here. You relate the writing to being unlike a car in that there is no baseline for good writing. Yes, yes there is. I'm sorry if you don't understand this. Twenty chapters doing what could be done in a single paragraph is bad writing, hence the ire from even fans of Tolkien over "The Silmarillion." This isn't a "I don't like fantasy because I can't get into magic. It's too deus ex plot-point." argument, this isn't a "I can't get into sci-fi because the writers take too much liberty with what's possible in the future." This isn't even something moderately complex, this is the basics. The characters are flat and evoke no emotion. Ethan is a sociopath, Lucas is an yes man asshole, and Lilah is a girl who is inexplicably in love with a man who butters toast and throws it at the wall for no goddamn reason. That's the depth of their characters. You may like them, just like some people like Garfield. This doesn't mean the writing is good. (Though Jim Davis has my eternal respect, that crafty bastard.) I'm not berating you for liking it YOU TWAT, I'm berating you because certain aspects of writing ARE subject to being called good or bad without personal taste interfering. Hence objectivity.

For the record, what about webcomics makes it the only thing subjective? People like hummers, cigarettes, and other people stepping on their genitals. All these can pretty much be called "bad" yet people enjoy them. What makes them different, oh god of logic? What separates them from the subjective nature of webcomics, you paragon of wit and knowledge?

Oye...People and their golden calves.

I think Yahtzee makes a great point and though it does take a shot at a LOT of webcomics, I think it's a necesarry bullet graze to try and make more people aware of the monotone writing and character/plot design that seems to plague most webcomics today. Too often do we see video-game based webcomics that are quick to jump on the latest PA or , no offense, Yahtzee's reviews, and draw up a witty four panel basically saying the same thing we've all heard. As a reader and avid artist, I would appreciate it more if someone went out, actually played the game, much like Yahtzee or the guys behind Penny Arcade, and THEN presented their thoughts. Even if those thoughts are contradictory to popular opinion at least you're being an original writer and not a two-bit hack.
For example: I thought Portal was an amazing game, but the fan-hype that followed shortly after almost robbed Portal of some the qualities that made it good. That's right, fans can ruin a game/ t.v./movie series very easily. We get that the cake is a lie, you don't have to repeat it every time someone mentions baked goods like you're some kind of malfunctioning speak-n-spell.
See? That wasn't so hard.

The depressing part of that is that there are so many better lines in Portal than that one.

Even if I believed that CAD was the greatest slight against the English language and art ever concocted in the halls of mediocrity, I would still hold Mr. Buckley in a far higher esteem than you lot. I will always praise the person who tries and fails over the mindless masses that ridicule him for his failure. That failure can be taken for what it is and be criticized , such as Yahtzee did with CAD's drama debaucles, but the most wretched people on this Earth are those who engage in such a hypocrisy as to think less of a man for his failures.

I hate him not because of his failures, but because of his actions as a person. I also think less of people who fail specifically because they instigated their failure. If a runner attempts to win a race but decides to shoot himself in the foot halfway through, he has lost my respect. Buckley did this by jumping back and forth between the "drama" and the "humor". Had he attempted to see it through I may have thought him a 'tard for attempting such a serious subject in a humor comic and more so a subject so beyond his skills as a writer to do well, but I would have respected the attempt at doing something deeper than his normal shtick. I wouldn't have LIKED it, but at least he's trying to do something a bit different.

By the way, on the subject of bad gaming comics, I invite everyone to read Powerup Comics [http://www.drunkduck.com/Powerup_Comics/].

After reading that, you may think "Wow, this is terrible. Why would anyone make that? Why would anyone like that?"
The answer: Its badness is on purpose. The authors are DELIBERATELY trying to make a terrible gaming comic. That's why it's flat-out hilarious.

Ah, powerup comics...I love those guys, though it's definitely an "in the mood" kind of read. That level of satire is too high for regular reading.

I don't hate CAD. I read it every so often. I don't see this big hate rant on it. I could understand if people pentented this anger against... hmm, lets say the KKK, for a sec. I don't find anything wrong with CAD. I like Penny Arcade equally, and I'm a huge XKCD and Concerned fan too. Sigh, this is pointless.

Find the post about the denigration of the medium, it should clear up any nagging questions you may have about why people hate it with the white hot intensity of a thousand suns. If not, check out any of the WALL OF TEXT posts. There's plenty of them from a bunch of different people and all of them should help fill in the gaps.

 

[mark_n_b]

purple rain, there isn't a hate for CAD, really just the topic of conversation.

Poor taste saying we should focus our time on solving issues of world racism (KKK) rather than post to this thread. I know you didn't quite mean it like that, but it comes off that way.

You like CAD? Enjoy CAD then. Fine. I like VGCats, but I will say that Ramossair (however the hell you spell it) is a quality "hit or miss"er and posts every Monday like I have a third testicle (No offense to anyone who may suffer an actual medical condition that has resulted in a third testicle).

I think CAD is more dull than funny or informative. How is that a hate rant? And how is that any more pointless than you saying you love all of your web comic children equally?

 

[John Freeman.]

Getting off the "Yahtzee sucks/CAD sucks!" train for just a second, would anyone else buy that Gears of War "put one foot forward" shirt if Yahtzee offered it?

It's not even funny, and most people wont get it,,
But thats the whole idea!

3 shirts please,
=D

 

[TerraMGP]

The man is just nitpicking now... Seriously If this pointless pandering and hatemongering just to seem like a jerk keeps up I really am considering just giving up on this whole thing. Considering ZP fits into the whole "Web comic/Net cartoon" niche quite nicely I would say that in and of itself is hypocritical, especially considering his humor in most cases is very much the same. It really takes away from the funny when he acts like a jerk for the sake of acting like a jerk and its just another sign of a pattern he has been going down. Now I admit web comics are not for everyone, thats fine. Most people are not going to like OOtS or Penny Arcade or other such but really when the man just keeps bashing people for things he does himself. I admit that the whole MGS4 one was debatable and thats part of why I gave up (nobody would listen/understood) but we are talking about a man who not only works in the SAME VENUE but has the SAME SENSE OF HUMOR.

I know I am going to get slammed for this but the fact is the pot is calling the kettle black. A man making net cartoons which are already more or less stop frame progression by nature (Similar to a long net comic with poor as hell animation being played pannel by pannel) and the fact that he makes similar observations...

You know what? at this point I am willing to guess he is just waiting around for people to call him out on this.

 

[TerraMGP]

I hate my fathers laptop and the double posts it causes.

 

[MercFox1]

Most people are not going to like OOtS or Penny Arcade or other such but really when the man just keeps bashing people for things he does himself.

You know, I just learned of OotS through this thread, and it's freaking awesome. The most verbose comic I've ever read, but there's something to be said for the story that Rich has crafted.

http://www.giantitp.com/index.html

 

[PurpleRain]

I don't hate CAD. I read it every so often. I don't see this big hate rant on it. I could understand if people pentented this anger against... hmm, lets say the KKK, for a sec. I don't find anything wrong with CAD. I like Penny Arcade equally, and I'm a huge XKCD and Concerned fan too. Sigh, this is pointless.

Find the post about the denigration of the medium, it should clear up any nagging questions you may have about why people hate it with the white hot intensity of a thousand suns. If not, check out any of the WALL OF TEXT posts. There's plenty of them from a bunch of different people and all of them should help fill in the gaps.

So? If people hate it, then why do they have to rant about it? It may not be the best, but it's certainly not killing anyone inside. It's just one of those things, if you don't like it, stop looking at it. It's not hard. I don't like Ginger so I never eat it. I don't complain about how much I hate it. I've never gotten that with people and that's the point I was trying to make.

purple rain, there isn't a hate for CAD, really just the topic of conversation.

Poor taste saying we should focus our time on solving issues of world racism (KKK) rather than post to this thread. I know you didn't quite mean it like that, but it comes off that way.

You like CAD? Enjoy CAD then. Fine. I like VGCats, but I will say that Ramossair (however the hell you spell it) is a quality "hit or miss"er and posts every Monday like I have a third testicle (No offense to anyone who may suffer an actual medical condition that has resulted in a third testicle).

I think CAD is more dull than funny or informative. How is that a hate rant? And how is that any more pointless than you saying you love all of your web comic children equally?

(blinks)

 

[kiss_my_solid_snake]

as a pointless de-lay here's a forum...of ZP...yes
if you dont like it then wtf dont click
its that obvious

www.zeropunctuation.proboards80.com

hey i got the vids from this site w/ embedding so dont hassle me bout tht :]

Edit: sry I don't have ths vid up yet...for some reason it won't load. Oh well, when I get on another comp.

 

[Tempdude0]

The man is just nitpicking now... Seriously If this pointless pandering and hatemongering just to seem like a jerk keeps up I really am considering just giving up on this whole thing. Considering ZP fits into the whole "Web comic/Net cartoon" niche quite nicely I would say that in and of itself is hypocritical, especially considering his humor in most cases is very much the same. It really takes away from the funny when he acts like a jerk for the sake of acting like a jerk and its just another sign of a pattern he has been going down. Now I admit web comics are not for everyone, thats fine. Most people are not going to like OOtS or Penny Arcade or other such but really when the man just keeps bashing people for things he does himself. I admit that the whole MGS4 one was debatable and thats part of why I gave up (nobody would listen/understood) but we are talking about a man who not only works in the SAME VENUE but has the SAME SENSE OF HUMOR.

I know I am going to get slammed for this but the fact is the pot is calling the kettle black. A man making net cartoons which are already more or less stop frame progression by nature (Similar to a long net comic with poor as hell animation being played pannel by pannel) and the fact that he makes similar observations...

You know what? at this point I am willing to guess he is just waiting around for people to call him out on this.

Or you're a twit. I remember you from that damnable MGS debate. Perhaps I should start beating my head against the wall that is your poor debating in the hopes that people will once again start making well reasoned arguments once you've left.

Eh, screw it. I've got nothing better to do.

The "humor" isn't all that similar. I don't see Yahtzee pointing out the game "Alone in the Dark" takes place alone and in the dark har he har he har, except perhaps to say how stupid that is. That's not even a joke, it's an observation, and going even further it's a blatantly obvious one. It'd be like chuckling at someone calling the sky blue. "Ye gods, it IS blue, truly you are a laugh riot."

That little paragraph as an aside, what things do he and Buckley have in common? Aside from both working with games and humor of sorts, I fail to see any other parallels.

Quick reference to the MGS thing again, we all understood, we just thought you were a pillock, even the people on your side...I see that happening again. Well, assuming more people with an ounce of debating skills pop up.

Again, nifty, they aren't really the same "venue", but I don't care enough to go into the differences. As for the humor, in what way are they the same? Here, Cosby and Mitch Hedberg. Both talked about drugs and yet their comedy really isn't that similar.

I...That's like saying Disney is equatable to Marvel Comics. Way to not understand differences in mediums. Next you'll be telling me swimming is kind of like professional boxing, both have movement and one is fluid while the other is IN fluid. I swear, that single paragraph is so nonsensical I can't even describe it's level of absurdity appropriately.

I don't hate CAD. I read it every so often. I don't see this big hate rant on it. I could understand if people pentented this anger against... hmm, lets say the KKK, for a sec. I don't find anything wrong with CAD. I like Penny Arcade equally, and I'm a huge XKCD and Concerned fan too. Sigh, this is pointless.

Find the post about the denigration of the medium, it should clear up any nagging questions you may have about why people hate it with the white hot intensity of a thousand suns. If not, check out any of the WALL OF TEXT posts. There's plenty of them from a bunch of different people and all of them should help fill in the gaps.

So? If people hate it, then why do they have to rant about it? It may not be the best, but it's certainly not killing anyone inside. It's just one of those things, if you don't like it, stop looking at it. It's not hard. I don't like Ginger so I never eat it. I don't complain about how much I hate it. I've never gotten that with people and that's the point I was trying to make.

purple rain, there isn't a hate for CAD, really just the topic of conversation.

Poor taste saying we should focus our time on solving issues of world racism (KKK) rather than post to this thread. I know you didn't quite mean it like that, but it comes off that way.

You like CAD? Enjoy CAD then. Fine. I like VGCats, but I will say that Ramossair (however the hell you spell it) is a quality "hit or miss"er and posts every Monday like I have a third testicle (No offense to anyone who may suffer an actual medical condition that has resulted in a third testicle).

I think CAD is more dull than funny or informative. How is that a hate rant? And how is that any more pointless than you saying you love all of your web comic children equally?

(blinks)

My point was...You didn't go back and read it, did you? All it would have taken is to go to each page and ctrl-f the word "denigration" or "denigrates" or "standards" or "medium" and you would have stumbled upon it. I took the time to read what you had to say, could you at least extend the same courtesy?

Uh, to summarize mark_n_b, the idea is that stating dislike of something is tantamount to your statements proclaiming your enjoyment of it. Both are relatively pointless in that they don't add to the discussion, yet one is seen as worse than the other for some reason. Essentially, he's calling everyone who has posted the "don't like it, don't read it." argument and all those similar hypocrites.

At least that's what I'm getting out of it...I'm now sad that I didn't make that statement first.

 

[Kovash86]

Most people are not going to like OOtS or Penny Arcade or other such but really when the man just keeps bashing people for things he does himself.

You know, I just learned of OotS through this thread, and it's freaking awesome. The most verbose comic I've ever read, but there's something to be said for the story that Rich has crafted.

http://www.giantitp.com/index.html

Oh yeah it is quite verbose, especially when Roy or V start blathering away, but for basically being stick figures those are some of the most expressive character models I've ever seen, it is also fairly well written.

TerraMPG: ZP isn't a webcomic in any way, that's like calling X-play a comic for gaming nerds, sure they do similar things but they fill in completely different niches one makes fun of games the other judges them from a rather elitist point of view, it just happens that this judgment is freaking hilarious. By reading CAD you will never know if you may or may not like a game because it will never express enough about a game unless that game is so awesome you only need to say a handful of words about it to get across how awesome it is. By watching ZP you will know fairly quickly (at least within 4 minutes) on whether or not the game is worth taking a look at, for example I played SSBM for the spectacle and the silly combat, I would do the same for SSBB because I now know that the very same spectacle and goofy combat styling is still there.

 

[trlkly]

Meh. lots of comics go through Cerebrus Syndrome [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CerebusSyndrome]. I don't see what the big deal is.

 

[Fisher_King]

Can you show me conclusive evidence that there are, in fact, no ball's in his mouth at this time?

I cannot show conclusive evidence that unicorns do not, in fact, exist or that Saddam Hussein did not, in fact, ever have any WMDs.

In fairness, some of the criticism at him has nothing to do with his comic. Much of it comes from the fact he comes across as an egomaniac OUTSIDE of the comic.

I wasn't aware that you or anyone else who posts on these boards knows Buckley personally.

Considering what made Buckley popular was essentially trolling games, I don't think it really is much different than what posters are doing here. Last time I checked Buckley doesn't create the games he seems to enjoy mocking. Sure, he does it with colorful pictures, but it really isn't any different than what is happening here.

I'm trying and am succeeding at the things I want to do in life and I choose to mock things I have no desire to do. You're stating the same tired argument that Buckley likes to use: "Lets see you do better." I don't have to be great at something to recognize when something else is bad.

1)Making a webcomic that has gaming humor is not equivalent to trolling or ridiculing a man for no other reason than you don't like his webcomic/website. Furthermore, (I am fairly certain, although not sure) Buckley does not resort to unwarranted, juvenile personal attacks of game developers. And even if he did, that gives you no excuse to be as sophmoric as he.

2)That you are "suceeding at the things you want to do in life" is complete heresay.

3)My argument is very different from "Let's see you do better." You can criticize something that you think is crappy all you want. Like I said, I do not wish to stifle any critcism of his webcomic. My argument is that there is no justifiable reason to personally attack him because you don't like his webcomic.

I hate him not because of his failures, but because of his actions as a person. I also think less of people who fail specifically because they instigated their failure. If a runner attempts to win a race but decides to shoot himself in the foot halfway through, he has lost my respect. Buckley did this by jumping back and forth between the "drama" and the "humor". Had he attempted to see it through I may have thought him a 'tard for attempting such a serious subject in a humor comic and more so a subject so beyond his skills as a writer to do well, but I would have respected the attempt at doing something deeper than his normal shtick. I wouldn't have LIKED it, but at least he's trying to do something a bit different.

I was not aware you knew him personally. (I feel like I'm repeating myself at this point)
Also the analogy is flawed. A runner who shoots himself in the foot in the middle of a race clearly has no desire to succeed. Buckley made a genuine attempt to create a dramatic narrative. A more apt analogy would be if a champion runner injured himself playing football, a sport he should not be playing if he wants to continue to be successful as a runner. You can criticize him as a professional athlete, because clearly playing football is not the best decision to make if you're training for a race, but you have no reason to criticize him as a person. Similarly, Buckley can be criticized as an artist but, contrary to popular belief/practice, online message boards are no place for personal attacks.

[Edited for spelling]

 

[Lemah]

not funny to me. Negativity upon negativity upon negativity. I mean, your stuff is always cutting in one way or another, and I know there are SO MANY people out there who love to just sit and laugh at making fun of others. But personally, I like to laugh, or be educated. I do find this series to be very original and I do enjoy most of them, but not this one.

 

[Seamus8]

Some of the old newpaper comics did this way back in the day, try to be funny one week and the next have the characters diagnosed with alzhiemers/cancer/gunshots/dies in car wreck.

Crankshaft, Winkerbean, Better or Worse, to name a few.

 

[Iori Branford]

GARBLEFARBLEWANKETYDUM

I missed the part where he trumpeted the almighty godliness of his own work.

And I suppose him being in that trough of shit with the other webcomic "artists" was because he has a neck-deep scat fetish or something.