Biden team faced "tirade" at meeting with Chinese over America's poor human rights record in "Diplomatic humiliation"

[tstorm823]

I’ll not speak for anyone else, but if my saying the Chinese are committing the same acts of genocide as the US sounds like a defense of China I think that says a lot about how you feel about genocide when the US does it.

The US isn't doing the same acts of genocide as China. You're defending China by saying that. The US government is not harvesting organs from specific ethnicities, or holding people in solitary confinement until they renounce their religion. Your deflection is both "whatabout"ing, and more importantly inaccurate.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

The US isn't doing the same acts of genocide as China. You're defending China by saying that. The US government is not harvesting organs from specific ethnicities, or holding people in solitary confinement until they renounce their religion. Your deflection is both "whatabout"ing, and more importantly inaccurate.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/09/25/ice-is-accused-sterilizing-detainees-that-echoes-uss-long-history-forced-sterilization/

 

[Revnak]

The US isn't doing the same acts of genocide as China. You're defending China by saying that. The US government is not harvesting organs from specific ethnicities, or holding people in solitary confinement until they renounce their religion. Your deflection is both "whatabout"ing, and more importantly inaccurate.

Except it absolutely is, has, and does.

Edit: also, in what world is it whatabouting when it’s the fucking topic of the entire thread? The whole point is that China went on a tirade about US human rights abuses, to which my initial statement was that they’re both guilty of largely the same crimes and therefore that criticism is meaningless.

Edit2: if you’re interested in the “forcing people to renounce their religion,” North American native re-education schools did that for over a century.

 

[tstorm823]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/09/25/ice-is-accused-sterilizing-detainees-that-echoes-uss-long-history-forced-sterilization/

The accusation of overused hysterectomies that piece introduces itself with turned out to be false. And then most of the article is about how people with less implied racial animosity were more often advocates for sterilizing people in the given circumstances. How any of that compares what's happening in China is beyond me.

Edit: also, in what world is it whatabouting when it’s the fucking topic of the entire thread? The whole point is that China went on a tirade about US human rights abuses, to which my initial statement was that they’re both guilty of largely the same crimes and therefore that criticism is meaningless.

Exactly, it's literally the topic. Why is China saying these things? Because the entire world is condemning them for genocide, and they're playing the "what about the US?" card, and you're playing along with them. And your facts are still wrong.

Edit2: if you’re interested in the “forcing people to renounce their religion,” North American native re-education schools did that for over a century.

Schools run by not the government, inspired by ignorance rather than by the absolute demand for power.

 

[Revnak]

Exactly, it's literally the topic. Why is China saying these things? Because the entire world is condemning them for genocide, and they're playing the "what about the US?" card, and you're playing along with them. And your facts are still wrong.

You actually can condemn two bad things it isn’t fucking hard. You can refuse to choose sides between two very clearly comparable issues, a thing you choose to do regularly. The disagreement is that you don’t think the US is as guilty or bad because the empty justifications and plausible deniabilities it expresses ring true to you, but I personally reject those of both if the result (genocide) occurs regardless.

Schools run by not the government, inspired by ignorance rather than by the absolute demand for power.

They desired influence over their immortal souls, didn’t they? That’s a kind of power. The small tyrants and pedophiles (because of course they regularly raped and beat children at these schools) of hundreds of native re-education schools weren’t merely ignorant, and that same excuse could be made regarding the “Maoist idealism” of Chinese attempts at re-education.

Also, I made sure to say NA. Guess what close US ally and puppet had such schools open and running into the late 90’s with explicit government oversight? Canada’s certainly in NA. And the BIA schools in the US were hardly any better than more explicitly religious reservation schools, which the US government also supported and made possible in the first place through the creation and enforcing of reservations.

 

[Seanchaidh]

Native re-education schools, like what China is doing, are genocide.

This depends on the specifics. For instance, there's a big difference between bilingual education and outlawing people speaking in their native language. And there's a big difference between an intent to extinguish a culture and an intent to curb the influence of a specific political ideology (which is to say, Wahhabism).

The Chinese approach to Xinjiang appears to be more like Japanese internment than native reeducation, though it differs from both in that it has not targeted the entire population or an entire age cohort. It also seems to be a(n over)reaction to a problem that the United States caused. A problem that the United States answered with targeted and not-so-targeted assassination.

There is of course something terrifying about a government that can exert power in the way that China is doing because if it can do this then it is certainly capable of genocide. But this is true of a lot of governments.

It will seem that I've only said that if you insistently refuse to look at sources, yes.

When I find that your sources don't support your conclusions, yes, I'd much rather you articulate an actual argument yourself.

The absolute irony of decrying others for "credulously believing whatever war propagandists say", before then parroting the official party line from state-capitalist censors.

The official party line from leaked documents..? Your idea is that the party's presumably secret instructions to its agents in Xinjiang are also propaganda meant for wide consumption? I'm pretty sure I'm doing the opposite of what you're alleging: I'm taking New York Times anti-Chinese propaganda at face value. What they're describing is a lot of things, but it is not genocide.

We're in the topsy-turvy world when you of all people are prioritising the party line over the testimony of surviving victims.

Testimony that says what, exactly? How does this testimony contradict?

How does one justify a "deradicalisation program" that encompasses every member of an ethnic/ religious group?

I'd invite you to compare the numbers of the Uygur population with the numbers of incarcerated. You may find that while both are large numbers, they are not the same. Indeed, the NYT article outlines the leaked documents' instructions on answering various questions from Uygur people about the status of their family members rather than arresting them.

How does enforced sterilisation fit into that?

From what I've gathered, fitting IUDs is also what China does to Han women that have exceeded its two or one child policy. Is China genociding Han Chinese as well? I'm going to go out on a limb and say that form is not the same thing as essence.

 

[Revnak]

This depends on the specifics. For instance, there's a big difference between bilingual education and outlawing people speaking in their native language. And there's a big difference between an intent to extinguish a culture and an intent to curb the influence of a specific political ideology (which is to say, Wahhabism).

The Chinese approach to Xinjiang appears to be more like Japanese internment than native reeducation, though it differs from both in that it has not targeted the entire population or an entire age cohort. It also seems to be a(n over)reaction to a problem that the United States caused. A problem that the United States answered with targeted and not-so-targeted assassination.

There is of course something terrifying about a government that can exert power in the way that China is doing because if it can do this then it is certainly capable of genocide. But this is true of a lot of governments.

Bullshit. I’ve zero confidence that’s the case and the literal language of most laws passed to enforce/allow this system enables much more and much worse than a “soft” version of Japanese Internment.

 

[Seanchaidh]

Bullshit. I’ve zero confidence that’s the case and the literal language of most laws passed to enforce/allow this system enables much more and much worse than a “soft” version of Japanese Internment.

Your reflexive distrust may turn out to be correct, but I don't know.

 

[tstorm823]

You actually can condemn two bad things it isn’t fucking hard.

You can condemn two bad things without declaring them equivalent, which is equally not hard, yet you refuse to do so.

You can refuse to choose sides between two very clearly comparable issues, a thing you choose to do regularly.

You constantly insist that dissimilar things are equal because it's somehow important to you that the US in every aspect count as at least tied for worst. Which is nonsense.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

The accusation of overused hysterectomies that piece introduces itself with turned out to be false. And then most of the article is about how people with less implied racial animosity were more often advocates for sterilizing people in the given circumstances. How any of that compares what's happening in China is beyond me.

Last I checked it wasn't false, the nurses there said they were unneeded, and forced sterilizations are in fact defined as genocide.

 

[tstorm823]

Last I checked it wasn't false, the nurses there said they were unneeded, and forced sterilizations are in fact defined as genocide.

The accused doctor and hospital had records. Two hysterectomies had been performed. A few more migrants claimed they had procedures done without proper permission due to language barriers, but that's neither about unnecessary now overly performed procedures. Nothing else came of it, no evidence of mass hysterectomies was ever provided.

 

[Revnak]

You can condemn two bad things without declaring them equivalent, which is equally not hard, yet you refuse to do so.

You constantly insist that dissimilar things are equal because it's somehow important to you that the US in every aspect count as at least tied for worst. Which is nonsense.

They are though. And I genuinely don’t even think the US is the worst in all domains where it has overlapping influence. Assuming we’re in a truly multipolar system at this point, I’d argue Russia has more baggage in the limited spaces it has influence due to not even bothering with excuses, which is a bad sign.

 

[Gergar12]

India Wants to Copy American Vaccines. Biden Shouldn't Fall For It.

India's petition to suspend Covid-19 vaccine patents would set a dangerous precedent, writes Howard Dean.

www.barrons.com

In defense of Howard Dean, Biden, and establishment democrats they are right. The idiots on the progressive side who like the new religious nuns, and priests, are always talking about morality, but never realism, and pragmatism want us to send our best vaccine/RNA research to India, and in theory, China when China gets ahold of it via stealing it from a country in the Global South. This is batshit crazy.

We are not going to sent RNA research for India for free, at best if they invest in multiple carrier battle groups and a US military base in India to sink Chinese trading vessels going to the Persian gulf I would agree to it. Edit: In case of a future war with China.

Also if you say I am being selfish, fair point. If you say I am racist, I have literally supported and called for more H1-B visas, and more immigration to the US. Square that circle.

Yeah, I was super wrong. Give the vaccines to everyone, and anyone that wants them(I want to go much further than that, but even if I was a policymaker I couldn't). The semi-conductor shortages are annoying AF. Without enough semi-conductors, we have fewer PS5s, which means fewer games, and also fewer RTX graphics cards. Oh, and I don't want this disease to be a great filter where we die before reaching space travel and becoming a space-based empire due to disease mutations.

And if countries in the global south could build more semi-conductor factories, and send some aerospace engineers over to the US, that would be nice too.

This pandemic is driving me insane. No good open-world games, a few good animes, long Disney plus content droughts.

 

[Seanchaidh]

This pandemic is driving me insane. No good open-world games, a few good animes, long Disney plus content droughts.

Damn.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

The accused doctor and hospital had records. Two hysterectomies had been performed. A few more migrants claimed they had procedures done without proper permission due to language barriers, but that's neither about unnecessary now overly performed procedures. Nothing else came of it, no evidence of mass hysterectomies was ever provided.

More immigrant women say they were abused by Ice gynecologist

More than 40 women submitted testimony claiming abuse, alleging they underwent invasive and unnecessary procedures

www.theguardian.com

I think 40 is bigger than 2. I haven't found anything that agrees with what you're saying, just piles of testimony from inmates there saying they were pressured or forced to be sterilized, which again, is in fact genocide. And as a lot of these articles point out, this is only the latest in American forced sterilization facilities that target minorities. This is an ongoing problem, for at least a century.

I'm just going to stand by what I said far earlier in the thread: A victim of western imperialism came out to tell everyone how bad western imperialism actually is and everyone goes "nah bro, have you seen China?"

 

[tstorm823]

More immigrant women say they were abused by Ice gynecologist

More than 40 women submitted testimony claiming abuse, alleging they underwent invasive and unnecessary procedures

www.theguardian.com

I think 40 is bigger than 2.

40 is bigger than 2, but 40 women didn't sign onto a petition claiming they had hysterectomies. 40 women signed onto a complaint about subpar and/or aggressive and uncomfortable gynecological care, with the hysterectomy story in the news as corroboration of their claims. This is the legal petition in question that ultimately made it to court. Hysterectomy comes up 17 times if you search for the term. Of those 17, 3 are from general references to the whistleblower filing, 10 are in reference to 3 women who were allegedly recommended hysterectomies by the accused doctor but never had the procedures, and the remaining 4 were in reference to a woman who was given diagnostic procedures that were unnecessary because she had a total hysterectomy done years prior to being detained by ICE. That's honestly the most jarring complaint of them all, and in my skimming of the general statements at the top, the only specific procedure I saw mentioned as being performed was unneeded ultrasounds done as standing orders with or without individual justification.

So I'm not defending the doctor's honor, he could be a really crappy doctor, he could be a genuine abuser deserving of retribution. But if you wade through all that, do you know how many of the women on that class action suit had hysterectomies performed by that doctor? Zero. This event was big news, everyone heard about the hysterectomies, testimonies were gathered, investigations were done. Some women on the filing were deported in the meantime, and the lawyers filing the suit tracked them down in other countries to get them onto the filing. And after all that, there are (unless I am mistaken), precisely zero women on the filing who had hysterectomies performed in ICE custody.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

40 is bigger than 2, but 40 women didn't sign onto a petition claiming they had hysterectomies. 40 women signed onto a complaint about subpar and/or aggressive and uncomfortable gynecological care, with the hysterectomy story in the news as corroboration of their claims. This is the legal petition in question that ultimately made it to court. Hysterectomy comes up 17 times if you search for the term. Of those 17, 3 are from general references to the whistleblower filing, 10 are in reference to 3 women who were allegedly recommended hysterectomies by the accused doctor but never had the procedures, and the remaining 4 were in reference to a woman who was given diagnostic procedures that were unnecessary because she had a total hysterectomy done years prior to being detained by ICE. That's honestly the most jarring complaint of them all, and in my skimming of the general statements at the top, the only specific procedure I saw mentioned as being performed was unneeded ultrasounds done as standing orders with or without individual justification.

So I'm not defending the doctor's honor, he could be a really crappy doctor, he could be a genuine abuser deserving of retribution. But if you wade through all that, do you know how many of the women on that class action suit had hysterectomies performed by that doctor? Zero. This event was big news, everyone heard about the hysterectomies, testimonies were gathered, investigations were done. Some women on the filing were deported in the meantime, and the lawyers filing the suit tracked them down in other countries to get them onto the filing. And after all that, there are (unless I am mistaken), precisely zero women on the filing who had hysterectomies performed in ICE custody.

You didn't read it enough. It's a clear list of evidence of at least one doctor forcing hysterectomies on people. Fuck's sake you ctrl+f'd so you know damn well twice it comes up on a woman who was prepped for surgery and told they were going to take out her womb until the COVID test came back.

This is what others are talking about when they say you defend western genocide. You are literally defending western genocide. China being a bunch of hypocrites doesn't make you not a hypocrite over this.

 

[Revnak]

I’d like to point out how the “sift through the details excusing one or two acts/dismiss multiple arguments over an error in one” sort of shit is the exact same defense that I’ve seen for China quite regularly in regards to everything you’re all complaining about. They’ll point to examples of terrorist attacks or “cultural differences,” argue that some act of heinous, collective, racially motivated punishment is comparable to one against an individual of the majority race in a very extreme circumstance, say that only x of y people can actually be “proven” to have suffered z, etc.

If anything has cleanly demonstrated my argument saying we’d do the same thing here if facing the same issue, splitting hairs about forced hysterectomies has. Watching a lawyer repeatedly ask the same experts the same question he knows they’ll say no to so the audience might infer the real answer is yes so another cop can get away with murdering a black man has. Seeing half our media parrot those lies so common people upset about the abuses of our system might think it was justice has. This is all America has ever fucking been, a country for plausibly deniable Nazi motherfuckers to con a mass of people too busy and isolated to give a fuck.

You are two men made of logs accusing one another of having a splinter. The world would be better off if both were set alight.

 

[Kae]

I’d like to point out how the “sift through the details excusing one or two acts/dismiss multiple arguments over an error in one” sort of shit is the exact same defense that I’ve seen for China quite regularly in regards to everything you’re all complaining about. They’ll point to examples of terrorist attacks or “cultural differences,” argue that some act of heinous, collective, racially motivated punishment is comparable to one against an individual of the majority race in a very extreme circumstance, say that only x of y people can actually be “proven” to have suffered z, etc.

If anything has cleanly demonstrated my argument saying we’d do the same thing here if facing the same issue, splitting hairs about forced hysterectomies has. Watching a lawyer repeatedly ask the same experts the same question he knows they’ll say no to so the audience might infer the real answer is yes so another cop can get away with murdering a black man has. Seeing half our media parrot those lies so common people upset about the abuses of our system might think it was justice has. This is all America has ever fucking been, a country for plausibly deniable Nazi motherfuckers to con a mass of people too busy and isolated to give a fuck.

You are two men made of logs accusing one another of having a splinter. The world would be better off if both were set alight.

Yes fuck the USA.

On the topic of Nazis, I would like to remind everyone that this isn't the first time that the USA has committed genocide against my people, they in fact invented the gas chambers that inspired the Nazis to create their own to deal with my people and I would very much recommend that you bunch of ignorant fucks read about the 1917 Bath Riots in El Paso Texas, so considering the recent rise of fascist rhetoric and that neither Democrats nor Republicans seem to be interested in ending this bullshit I'm expecting it to get worse, and they're very obviously preparing to give it another go, I mean for fucks' sake the concentration camps are already there, and they're clearly not only going after Latinos this they're going to target the Muslims too, that's why they keep dehumanising them in the media.

More immigrant women say they were abused by Ice gynecologist

More than 40 women submitted testimony claiming abuse, alleging they underwent invasive and unnecessary procedures

www.theguardian.com

I think 40 is bigger than 2. I haven't found anything that agrees with what you're saying, just piles of testimony from inmates there saying they were pressured or forced to be sterilized, which again, is in fact genocide. And as a lot of these articles point out, this is only the latest in American forced sterilization facilities that target minorities. This is an ongoing problem, for at least a century.

I'm just going to stand by what I said far earlier in the thread: A victim of western imperialism came out to tell everyone how bad western imperialism actually is and everyone goes "nah bro, have you seen China?"

I am still watching, I just stopped replying because I can't reply without insulting them, which to be fair should be allowed since they literally are arguing over the genocide of my people, but TBH, the drafts I did type were extremely rude, to be fair most people in this thread are ignorant chauvinist pigs without the slightest clue of what their talking about and so far removed from these issues they can't even empathise, not helped by the fact they keep comparing issues and suffering as if it was a fucking card game and with horribly incorrect information, which is extremely dehumanising and makes it even harder for them to empathise with the people their talking about, but they're too stupid to realise that.

 

[tstorm823]

You didn't read it enough. It's a clear list of evidence of at least one doctor forcing hysterectomies on people. Fuck's sake you ctrl+f'd so you know damn well twice it comes up on a woman who was prepped for surgery and told they were going to take out her womb until the COVID test came back.

This is what others are talking about when they say you defend western genocide. You are literally defending western genocide. China being a bunch of hypocrites doesn't make you not a hypocrite over this.

The woman you're referring to was referred to the doctor with heavy menstrual cramps. He suggested surgery right away, and repeatedly to her, but attempted to treat it with a lesser procedure that she had already experienced prior in her life. She continued to see him, as she was still having issues, and they scheduled the surgery. She signed a consent form that she says she wasn't allowed to read. The procedure didn't happen that day due to covid results, but it also didn't happen any day after that. She was encouraged to have the procedure by multiple people, including the doctor. Before being deported, she was taken aside, and told she should have the procedure before being sent out of the country, and she declined.

To me, all of that sounds like the doctor was trying to treat her ailments. Hysterectomies aren't that extreme, something like 1/3rd of all women in the US have one during their life. It's a very common procedure for people with exactly the symptoms she expressed. She had a month of consistent pain and bleeding that she blames on malpractice, but it also could have been worsening symptoms that justified surgery. She was encouraged to have the procedure by ICE and medical professionals, and was clearly allowed to say no. She felt she wasn't allowed to read the consent form she signed, and perhaps they didn't give her full opportunity for proper consent, but there's nothing showing that the doctor knew she wasn't consenting seeing as she signed the form, and after that incident she told them she didn't want that and they never rescheduled the procedure. She feels she was deported for talking to someone about the pressure to have a hysterectomy, but she was in ICE custody, she was going to be deported regardless. And in that context, someone telling her to have the procedure done before deportation sounds a lot more like they were advocating for her, trying to hold off deportation long enough to get a necessary procedure done while they could still provide it for her, rather than toss a sick woman over the border and wash their hands of it.

If this was the least evidence of forced hysterectomies, if she was among many women who had hysterectomies against their will, I would not offer so generous an interpretation, and believe she was being mistreated. But that's the most evidence of it happening. A woman who was repeatedly encouraged to have a procedure that is a common treatment for symptoms she genuinely had, and who was repeatedly allowed to decline, is the strongest evidence available that anyone was forced to have a hysterectomy. There is no evidence in that filing of a single person being forced to have a hysterectomy, and the closest it gets is a woman who probably should have had a hysterectomy and didn't.

I read it plenty. It's not a clear list of evidence of forced hysterectomies. It doesn't even claim to be that. Why are you sticking to the click-bait headline version of events when the truth, presented by victims legal advocates, is place in your hands?