National Guard called into Minneapolis

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lil devils x

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Because only 1 is can be feasible charged with 4th degree murder.

The other 3, It's hard to argue how much they were involved vs how much they were merely witnessed.

It would be a dangerous precedent to criminalise being a witness and not acting to prevent death as can you imagine that applied to the general public?

"Oh a robber came in with a gun and you didn't try to tackle them and stood by and witnessed it without stopping them killing a person you're not guilty".

I think the best that can be hope for is maybe dereliction of duty charges


In this case more undue force or Overzealous respond. It's also a time of unease where 1 officer have been killed already since the riots started. They're on edge but mostly it's been incompetent use of Non lethal rounds and attempts to frame that is some brutal deliberate response.

The other question is what justice?

The argument being made is the police officer who killed Floyd should be charged with 1st degree murder. Problem is 1st degree murder requires evidence of pre-meditation. So they either have to push the officer through a Kangaroo court (which wouldn't be justice) or they push it through a regular court and he gets let off because the premeditation can't be proved. 4th degree is their best chance of charging him.

Hell some people idea of Justice was apparently to go to his house and try to execute him...........

The are no clear "This is what justice will look like" standards everyone can agree on which is part of the issue here. Some people just claim to want justice from the system they believe has wronged them. Others claim they want justice for 400 years of government actions.


That's more private Doctors selling the tests from my understanding than much else.

A lot of celebs in the UK were getting tests via private doctors so it's likely the same in the USA.


Also worth mentioning the riots and fires are going to hurt the communities that are most vulnerable that are more minority ones (as long as the riots keep happening in minority communities)
There was a severe COVID-19 testing shortage in the US. You could only get tests at designated facilities and through " pop up testing sites", not your primary care physician. They set up the pop up testing and facilities in wealthy neighborhoods and did not provide those same resources to minority communities. In addition, Minorities were turned away from testing at hospitals at a higher rate than non minorities. Trump turned down the COVID-19 tests provided by WHO and instead wanted the US to make their own, then delayed it further by having to recall the faulty tests, and then once they had tests, they failed to secure testing supplies so sadly the US is STILL not being able to test as much as they need to be and are still turning people away from testing.


In addition, minority communities in the US lack basic access to primary care treatment to begin with due to the way the for profit insurance based system works in the US. So even when they are needing basic treatment for non COVID-19 related health issues, they do not have treatment options available to them at all. How this works in the US, instead however, is you can go to an emergency room to be stabilized, but then they give you a referral to a specialist for actual treatment. In order to see the specialist, if you do not have good insurance, the specialist can require full payment up front instead.

For example, my brother who did not have insurance prior to Obamacare, he had his thumb almost cut off on his right hand while working on an airplane ( he was an Airplane mechanic) and went to the ER, where they stabilized him but did not do the surgery required to be able to regain use of his thumb. When he went to the specialist they referred him to, the specialist said he would have to pay $10,000 cash up front for him to be able to do the surgery and then would need more if follow up surgeries were needed in the future. My brother could not afford to have the surgery due to this and lost the use of his thumb on his right hand permanently since he missed the window of time needed to act to save the nerves. He has been unemployed since this indecent and due to him being considered contract labor at the airplane hangar, he received no workers benefits as well and then the hanger itself closed later that year after the owner passed away. AT least since he was able to receive free healthcare under Obamacare , as I mentioned how he did this on another thread already, he has been able to receive basic access to medications and treatment, but it doesn't solve his many other issues that have forever changed his life over this incident. The problem now, that is even with Obamacare, we still have large cash copayments that still keep many services out of reach for the low income community. For example, even with the ACA, you can have to pay $800 before even being able to receive a test needed to begin treatment. That doesn't even include treatment, but just the tests to figure out the best action to take here. These are some of the issues that still need to be addressed in order for us to actually have universal healthcare in the US. Due to these issues and many other factors, most of the low income and minority communities do not have access to basic health services like other communities are provided.

The riots and fires are going to be impacting these communities worse than most, I already addressed that clearly earlier in the thread. However, the protesters should also not allow themselves to be bullied into silence by those who are committing these acts and should continue to try to be heard. I would never expect anyone to put themselves or others in danger, and really do hope someone can manage to get PPE to these people to help keep them safer, and hopefully they can actually utilize police resources on catching the actual perpetrators of the fires rather than wasting their resources against unarmed protesters that have nothing to do with that.

Other people starting fires and looting is not a reason for protesters to stop protesting. Public officials and police departments refusing to address their concerns is not a reason for the protesters to stop protesting. The government refusing to allow them access to PPE is not a reason to stop protesting. All of those things are just being used as an excuse to bully them into silence, and I do not blame them for not accepting it.
 
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CM156

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My work sent everyone in the office home today, because there's supposed to be protests in the city.

I will keep you all updated if anything burns down.
 

Trunkage

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Right, terminal is saying the system caused the violence. It's "inherent in the system". So long as the system exists, the violence exists, and if the system disappears, the violence disappears. These are the claims of anarchists and communists, who don't see the world the way most people do. The system they say is inherently violent is the Republic, it's capitalism, it's the very idea of police. Most people see government and police as a method to address their problems. Antifa sees them as the cause of the problems. That's what it means to say the violence is inherent in the system.
There is a big difference between society is inherently violent and there are a couple of outlier people that may need to be restrained. We may need to use force to make that happen. Part of the social contract is that we allow certain specialists to be able to use violence to enforce the social contract but under incredibly strict rules. Not because society is violent, but because everyone is not the same and we need to deal with them in different ways

And, to be clear, that means the system does have violence but also has checks and balances. My issue with your initial comment wasn't about the system, it was claiming that society is violent. Moat people are not
 

Trunkage

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So, are these the Quiet Americans Conservatives pundits (eg. Rubin) keep banging on about? Rising up to the trail of abuses?

Sorry, cheap shot some pundits who keep thinking all Americans are on their side just because they are 'Quiet.'
 

lil devils x

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And it looks like he was killed by police at his own business. The same business he often provided officers with free meals. ALL because police think it is a good idea to shoot into crowds instead of utilizing different measures to deescalate the situation. This protest in Lousiville is over Breonna Taylor being murdered in her home by police for a warrant for someone else who did not even live there who actually lived 10 miles away who was already in police custody before they even carried out this raid back in March and no officers being arrested for that either. Seriously how there have been no arrests made over that bumbling mess is beyond me.
 

Dalisclock

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Funny, when armed men and protestors were besieging the State House in Michigan he thought it was awesome and telling them to "Liberate". Apparently it's not funny anymore when it happens to him.

Piece of shit. Go hide in your rat hole until January.
 

tstorm823

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There is a big difference between society is inherently violent and there are a couple of outlier people that may need to be restrained. We may need to use force to make that happen. Part of the social contract is that we allow certain specialists to be able to use violence to enforce the social contract but under incredibly strict rules. Not because society is violent, but because everyone is not the same and we need to deal with them in different ways

And, to be clear, that means the system does have violence but also has checks and balances. My issue with your initial comment wasn't about the system, it was claiming that society is violent. Moat people are not
I 100% agree with all of this. I never meant to imply most people are violent, I just meant that violence is a human problem that all societies must grapple with, rather than caused by social structures. I just hope you understand that many of those who believe the rioting is justified would not agree with either of us here.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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There was a severe COVID-19 testing shortage in the US. You could only get tests at designated facilities and through " pop up testing sites", not your primary care physician.
Unless you're rich....

There has been a serious shortage a lot of places though because of issues with contamination in the supply chain and reliance on a small numbers of companies globally producing certain materials used.

They set up the pop up testing and facilities in wealthy neighborhoods and did not provide those same resources to minority communities.
Which is an issue though I'm guessing local governors had a big hand in that planning too.......


In addition, Minorities were turned away from testing at hospitals at a higher rate than non minorities.
Trump turned down the COVID-19 tests provided by WHO and instead wanted the US to make their own, then delayed it further by having to recall the faulty tests, and then once they had tests, they failed to secure testing supplies so sadly the US is STILL not being able to test as much as they need to be and are still turning people away from testing.
Which ones

The only 60% accurate tests

The contaminated tests

or the Anti body test that don't even work?

In addition, minority communities in the US lack basic access to primary care treatment to begin with due to the way the for profit insurance based system works in the US. So even when they are needing basic treatment for non COVID-19 related health issues, they do not have treatment options available to them at all. How this works in the US, instead however, is you can go to an emergency room to be stabilized, but then they give you a referral to a specialist for actual treatment. In order to see the specialist, if you do not have good insurance, the specialist can require full payment up front instead.
I've just had a terrible thought.............. what is this is Trump setting things up to announce some level of healthcare paid for by states. Maybe only say emergencyroom / ICU admissions but something. I mean that would be a hell of a nasty political move to have got this stirred up to turn round and do that......

The riots and fires are going to be impacting these communities worse than most, I already addressed that clearly earlier in the thread. However, the protesters should also not allow themselves to be bullied into silence by those who are committing these acts and should continue to try to be heard. I would never expect anyone to put themselves or others in danger, and really do hope someone can manage to get PPE to these people to help keep them safer, and hopefully they can actually utilize police resources on catching the actual perpetrators of the fires rather than wasting their resources against unarmed protesters that have nothing to do with that.
They should protest I'm all in favour but I'd say the moment rioting and looting starts raise hands and walk away. Come back the next day and start again it's not a sign of weakness to be willing to go home one day, it's a sign of strength to be able to get up the next day and come back once again and carry on.

The people causing the trouble see the protesters as human shield for their actions and their LARPINg about leading a revolution and taking down capitalism or whatever.

Other people starting fires and looting is not a reason for protesters to stop protesting.
I'd say again when it starts kicking off then it's reason to stop (for the day and come back the next day and the next day) so said bad actors can't use protesters as a shield and can't try to blend in or slip away using them. Deny them the cover and also it will then make it hard to pin their actions on the protestors.

Public officials and police departments refusing to address their concerns is not a reason for the protesters to stop protesting.
Problem is they can't address some of them under the present system and to address them would require reverting the system to almost frontier justice. They can't charge a person with a crime unless they can get the evidence for said crime or they meet the requirements to be charged with aid crime.

The government refusing to allow them access to PPE is not a reason to stop protesting. All of those things are just being used as an excuse to bully them into silence, and I do not blame them for not accepting it.
You can protest and be socially distant. Hell you can do a cyber protest as an option. thousands sending 1 email a day to the correspondence email for their senators etc or 1 letter a week to them will flood systems quite easily. It's easy to ignore what's outside the door. It's easy to not bother with the news and have the politicians who don't care just tune into entertainment stuff. It's harder when their work is impacted. When they're heaving to check through 500 emails to find that one they were expecting or figure out what to do with thousands of letters filling their office.
 

09philj

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An independent autopsy has concluded Floyd died of asphyxiation, and not of heart failure as concluded by the state autopsy. HMMMMMMM.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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An independent autopsy has concluded Floyd died of asphyxiation, and not of heart failure as concluded by the state autopsy. HMMMMMMM.
Good now 4th can possibly be upgraded to 3rd degree murder and it's a more solid possible conviction coming rather than a messy case of how much of it was the officers negligence vs how much an unfortunate set of health issues being set off.
 

Revnak

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An independent autopsy has concluded Floyd died of asphyxiation, and not of heart failure as concluded by the state autopsy. HMMMMMMM.
It’s done by the guy they bring out for every celebrity autopsy. Did Kennedy’s and also did the independent one on Epstein. He’s sort of a hack.
 

lil devils x

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Unless you're rich....

There has been a serious shortage a lot of places though because of issues with contamination in the supply chain and reliance on a small numbers of companies globally producing certain materials used.


Which is an issue though I'm guessing local governors had a big hand in that planning too.......





Which ones

The only 60% accurate tests

The contaminated tests

or the Anti body test that don't even work?



I've just had a terrible thought.............. what is this is Trump setting things up to announce some level of healthcare paid for by states. Maybe only say emergencyroom / ICU admissions but something. I mean that would be a hell of a nasty political move to have got this stirred up to turn round and do that......



They should protest I'm all in favour but I'd say the moment rioting and looting starts raise hands and walk away. Come back the next day and start again it's not a sign of weakness to be willing to go home one day, it's a sign of strength to be able to get up the next day and come back once again and carry on.

The people causing the trouble see the protesters as human shield for their actions and their LARPINg about leading a revolution and taking down capitalism or whatever.



I'd say again when it starts kicking off then it's reason to stop (for the day and come back the next day and the next day) so said bad actors can't use protesters as a shield and can't try to blend in or slip away using them. Deny them the cover and also it will then make it hard to pin their actions on the protestors.


Problem is they can't address some of them under the present system and to address them would require reverting the system to almost frontier justice. They can't charge a person with a crime unless they can get the evidence for said crime or they meet the requirements to be charged with aid crime.


You can protest and be socially distant. Hell you can do a cyber protest as an option. thousands sending 1 email a day to the correspondence email for their senators etc or 1 letter a week to them will flood systems quite easily. It's easy to ignore what's outside the door. It's easy to not bother with the news and have the politicians who don't care just tune into entertainment stuff. It's harder when their work is impacted. When they're heaving to check through 500 emails to find that one they were expecting or figure out what to do with thousands of letters filling their office.
*Trump is partially responsible for the unreliable and outright fraudulent tests even made it to the US market by not setting proper requirements at the FDA due to trump ordering them to wave all the requirements because he does not understand why those are necessary in the first place. He does not understand science so he dismisses what he does not understand. As other nations have done, he should have used the WHO tests as a stopgap until they had better tests available to the public. He failed to do ANYTHING during that time was the problem here and just allowed it to spread uncontrollably without testing or any measures in place to address it at all. He did not even stockpile PPE as other nations did, he acted like it was a hoax and did nothing.

*Trump never had a universal healthcare plan for the US, he wants to privatize it all and instead have " medical care for those who can afford it" only system and just have everyone else do without. His plan is to remove the Affordable care act and not replace it with anything. His " block grants" pool is a lottery system for the poor to receive extremely limited treatment, not an actual healthcare plan. Trump's hunger games type lottery for healthcare is not a solution here, it is terrifying. If you are not selected, you die. Even if you are selected, it doesn't mean you get enough care to survive.

*There isn't anything they cannot do under the present system. Just making the laws apply equally does not require changing the actual law here. They have laws to prosecute police officers under, they just need to apply the existing laws properly. Their exceptions to the law is the problem here, not the law itself. They have evidence, they just choose not to use it against police officers.

*Low income and minority communities often do not even have computers or high speed internet access at all. This was part of the problem in minority communities with being able to utilize online education during the shut down, forcing school districts to have to open facilities for them otherwise they would not have access at all.


Often we take for granted things we have easy access to, not everyone can even protest online as not everyone even has internet access. Internet access in the US is expensive and many cannot afford it at all.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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It’s done by the guy they bring out for every celebrity autopsy. Did Kennedy’s and also did the independent one on Epstein. He’s sort of a hack.
oh............damn..........


*Trump is partially responsible for the unreliable and outright fraudulent tests even made it to the US market by not setting proper requirements at the FDA due to trump ordering them to wave all the requirements because he does not understand why those are necessary in the first place.
I mean they'd still have hit the USA because they couldn't be tested before some of them arrived. Here in the UK we had issues because test that were ordered were checked before being deployed and found to be contaminated and not up to specification.

He does not understand science so he dismisses what he does not understand.
I think the problem is they seem to be trying to explain stuff to him that honestly is info he doesn't really need. It seems like he's trying to learn but is in far beyond his depths so he gets it wrong.

I mean some red tape can be got rid of with little impact on risk and others can't. The present vaccines being fast tracked into development are skipping some of the normal formalities or being allowed to skip them for various reasons.

As other nations have done, he should have used the WHO tests as a stopgap until they had better tests available to the public. He failed to do ANYTHING during that time was the problem here and just allowed it to spread uncontrollably without testing or any measures in place to address it at all. He did not even stockpile PPE as other nations did, he acted like it was a hoax and did nothing.
Well there may have been a PPE stockpile with a plan to buy more to replace it as it's used but there was a global shortage which means supply chain issues so stocks ran out quicker than planned.


*There isn't anything they cannot do under the present system. Just making the laws apply equally does not require changing the actual law here. They have laws to prosecute police officers under, they just need to apply the existing laws properly. Their exceptions to the law is the problem here, not the law itself. They have evidence, they just choose not to use it against police officers.
True but the demands are to charge the officers with charges that they know won't stick and will be thrown out very fast.

*Low income and minority communities often do not even have computers or high speed internet access at all. This was part of the problem in minority communities with being able to utilize online education during the shut down, forcing school districts to have to open facilities for them otherwise they would not have access at all.
Log onto wifi at some place that has it of they can and set an email via a smartphone. It's 1 per day.

On the subject of education it's an issue I will say though.

Often we take for granted things we have easy access to, not everyone can even protest online as not everyone even has internet access. Internet access in the US is expensive and many cannot afford it at all.
Fair point but as a possible idea going for a walk, logging onto an open network on the route and sending an email by smartphone (assuming people have at least that) then that could work.
 
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Dreiko

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I really don't get what the point of the autopsy is when we have the vid. Is it supposed to imply the maneuver they did on him was normal and fine and he just died cause he was sick so it's not their fault? Cause if that's the case that implies their maneuvers are only ok if they are done on healthy people, which is a wrong standard to admit to and could leave them open to lawsuits.
 

09philj

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Trump's decided what this situation really needs is martial law and the non-optional deployment of the army to states, which is about the worst possible thing he could have done.
 

lil devils x

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Trump's decided what this situation really needs is martial law and the non-optional deployment of the army to states, which is about the worst possible thing he could have done.
He only knows how to make things worse, and using the military against his own people is not surprising at all from this president even if this act has not been used in 200 years. We have a president that is so incompetent he thinks this is some how a solution to police brutality. In addition, legally he cannot deploy the US military against his own people unless the governors of those states request for him to do so. Just when you think he cannot be worse, he always manages to make things so much worse.


More people are protesting today simply because of what Trump has said than would have been otherwise, and his continued threats are just going to lead to larger protests rather than actually help with anything. All he knows how to do is agitate and escalate things further.
 

Agema

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Trump's decided what this situation really needs is martial law and the non-optional deployment of the army to states, which is about the worst possible thing he could have done.
Yep, well, that's what you expect from an authoritarian whose political base are right-wing authoritarians.

Let's face it, Trump has a massive, bulging, throbbing, necked-the-whole-Viagra-bottle hard-on for the opportunity to crack heads and smash people into line. It's a power fantasy: that's why he loves Putin, Erdogan etc. so much, because they can do that shit. Trump's obviously frustrated with checks, balances, constitutional separation of powers and so on. He wants to be king, to show everyone how powerful and awesome he is.
 
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