National Guard called into Minneapolis

[tstorm823]

We've had this conversation before multiple times in the old forums. Awful funny how for as important as details seem to be, that maxim only seems to apply to details conducive to the argument.

Because we also found execution of surrendered troops morally acceptable so as to not endanger supply lines or retask combatants to military policing. We found saturation bombing, incendiary and cluster bombs, morally acceptable, as well as deliberate targeting of civilian populations and residential sectors. We found atomic bombs morally acceptable.

We found mass incarceration of Nazis and suspected Nazis morally acceptable, which you might argue is part and parcel of denazification, justice, and transitioning Germany to a post-war government. Sure, until you consider the Morgenthau plan was the full, forcible, deindustrialization of Germany, and the quiet part of the plan said out loud by its opponents was that meant depopulating Germany by approximately half through human trafficking, forced labor as "reparation", and planned starvation. Yet, under the Marshall plan and in the face of a burgeoning Cold War, we marched many of those same Nazis out of prison camps and right back into the government buildings they staffed before the war.

It's little wonder why that might have been the case. After all, the US didn't jail our Nazis, Nazi sympathizers, and Nazi profiteers at war's end -- we appointed them to the highest positions in the country, and elected them to office up to and including President. We named airports and schools after them.

Seventy years of that shit, yet somehow "Antifa" wasn't really a thing until bad orange man? Fifeen years' of rendition, torture, indefinite detention, extrajudicial killings, militarized policing, and warrantless mass surveillance, the latter half of which many of those now calling themselves "Antifa" defended because we had a black, but more importantly Democratic, President?

Somehow it seems to have quoted me with lil devils words.

 

[Eacaraxe]

Somehow it seems to have quoted me with lil devils words.

Or I could have just screwed up and quoted the wrong post, like a donkey. Either way, I said my peace about "Antifa" in the United States.

 

[ObsidianJones]

I'm breaking my 'no post during my work week' rule...

Not all violence is immoral. Not all violence is moral either.

The Antifas of today aren't the Antifas that were anti-fascist when Nazism was on the rise. If you want to fight against Nazism or fascism, go ahead. Problem is, for Antifa, their definition of Nazi or fascist tends to be much broader than what we'd usually use. Like, just this weekend, I heard over the radio that the Australian chapter of Antifa treats Scott Morrison as a fascist. I mean, seriously? Centre-right is Antifa's designation of fascist?

And even that aside, Antifa's done plenty of damage. I think that's undeniable at this point.

Do you know which setting I would one hundred percent agree with you?

If Antifa was in Canada right now. Or Sweden. Or places where systematic brutality of citizens does not happen and is not allowed by the populace.

But antifa is antifascist. Why are they in America?

Fascism

If one can read that definition and say that hasn't applied to Black people in this country for generations... well, one hasn't been paying attention to how Black America has been faring in their entire tenure here. America is hands down a dangerous and deadly place for Blacks to be, in all walks of life. If I have to live my life thinking about where I can enter for fear of my life, this is not the land of the free and the home of the brave. It is for some, but it's limiting in all fashions for others. To ignore that is a lie. And to tell me it's not true is to deny not only the decades of my life, but the lives of others who have enough. I had to shorten my God Given First Name because it's Swahili and my customers will go on a damn rant because they got another 'foreigner'.

I can't even WORK and be free enough to do that.

And that's just the citizenry. The Government is just unbelievable.

Beyond morals, let's talk brass tacks. Everything that any sentient lifeform deals with. Let's talk about Survival. There is a greater power, a greater force, one with more numbers, training, and firearms than I can ever accumulate in my life time. I tried talking with them, it went to deaf ears. I tried reasoning with them, and it went on deaf ears. Pleading, begging, protesting... deaf ears. I'm still getting the same treatment. And not only am I getting the same treatment, my fellow 'citizens' shrug and say that's the way life is and allows it to happen.

I'm supposed to turn away any force that will try and stick up for me? That will rally around me and fight with me?

We're alone out here. We don't get to be picky about who takes up arms to stand with us.

 

[Agema]

Oh look, I found what you aren't hearing in 30 seconds.

Yes, because you specifically looked for it because you have a point to make. But that's not actually how people tend to read the news, is it?

 

[tstorm823]

Or I could have just screwed up and quoted the wrong post, like a donkey. Either way, I said my peace about "Antifa" in the United States.

To respond to part of the previous post, it isn't just a thing now the "orange man bad". Black bloc has existed for decades. It just doesn't accomplish anything, because when people stand for anarchy or against capitalism, people rightly ignore that crap as best they can. And Antifa the name traces back to pre-WWII Germany, it's plenty old itself.

What makes Antifa specifically insidious is that it is a lie, and it was always a lie. Antifaschistische Aktion in the 1930s was just as dishonest a name as it is now. They aren't specifically anti-fascist, they're specifically communists. There were plenty of anti-fascists in the Weimer Republic who weren't communists and supported liberal democracy. If the original Antifa hadn't been trying to upend Germany just as much as the Nazis were, Hitler likely would have never happened. Conflating the support of communism with the opposition to fascism breeds both more communists and more fascists. I know this, Antifa knows this, they're doing it on purpose. Their goal isn't putting down Nazis, their goal is overthrowing liberal democracy.

 

[tstorm823]

Yes, because you specifically looked for it because you have a point to make. But that's not actually how people tend to read the news, is it?

If you aren't specifically looking for something before stating your opinion, you're doing it wrong. You can't trust whatever the news has managed to get to your ears and run with it without verification. You have to know that's just spreading ignorance.

 

[Agema]

If you aren't specifically looking for something before stating your opinion, you're doing it wrong.

You don't quite get the point I'm making.

This is about the way it is going to be generally perceived, and the created perception is all about Antifa. That's what I mean when I say I've read the news, and all I really get the impression of is "blame Antifa". The fact that in the weight of commentary some people are sometimes a little more careful about distributing accusations only really comes out with specific consideration. (Even then, it's worded to convey the figurative impact "ANTIFA and other groups", even despite a lack of proof of how much Antifa itself is involved.) But most people aren't going to think about that and look carefully, are they?

Thus "Antifa" is manufactured into a generic term for violent (leftist) disorder, rather than a group which traditionally has specific aims. It's a simple enough smear tactic.

 

[Eacaraxe]

To respond to part of the previous post, it isn't just a thing now the "orange man bad"...Their goal isn't putting down Nazis, their goal is overthrowing liberal democracy.

Perhaps this perceived disconnect might be resolved by explaining exactly the position I'm coming from. That last part is what I support -- I make no bones about it, I'm a democratic socialist. My perception of and personal experiences to date of "Antifa" as understood right now, is it's mostly terminally-online Johnny-come-latelies who have been whipped into a Trump-deranged frenzy by corporate media, and intersectionalitied themselves into nothing resembling organizational competence, let alone leverage positions or capitol to effect policy without external "aid" (read, co-option).

The writing on this is already on the wall. The Democratic party has already once again thrown BLM under the bus, and is working overtime to undermine support for protest, and co-opting public opinion, to push for non-reforms with token performative gestures. Hell, Biden's pushing now harder than ever as a key plank to increase police funding for perennially proven-ineffective programs. Why is it right now, in the face of a global pandemic, national unrest unparalleled since Vietnam and civil rights, and impending and irreversible climate change, the Democratic party feels more empowered than ever to not just abandon pretense of change, but double down on doing nothing?

I am without doubt that, should Biden win, most of these people will shut right up and go right back to work as the media and network of parasocial relationships upon which they solely rely for identity leaps at the opportunity to once again manufacture consent for the same nihilist policies that persisted long before, throughout, and assuredly long after, the Trump administration. The Justins and Ketchups will once again reign as the media-approved face of left activism, and they will go right back to being the target of late-night talk show monologues.

TLDR: when I hear the words "general strike" spread to that of a consensus position, backed by guarantee of direct action, and unswayed by the mewlings of feckless elected officials, I'll believe there's even an iota of earnestness buried beneath the geologically-scaled layers of bullshit.

 

[Avnger]

Their goal isn't putting down Nazis, their goal is overthrowing liberal democracy.

A little bit of an ironic criticism from a supporter of the current president.

 

[Satinavian]

Personally i don't have a good opinion of Antifa. All people i know that use the Antifa-label for themself are left leaning anarchists. Some did admit to having taken part in black block activities (and at least one wanted to convince me to join, illustrating fights with the police in bright colors). While they certainly were against neonazis, there were as opposed to capitalism as well. And quite a bunch followed some very strange left wing conspiracy theories justifying all kinds of violence.

There are not as bad as certain Neo-Stalinists i had the unpleasentness of interacting with briefly, but overall i still see Antifa as a violent deluded bunch of troublemakers, not as some force of good.

Of course, Neonazis are worse.



Now, the organisation level of Antifa is not that high. It is reasonable to suspect that there are big local differences.

 

[tstorm823]

You don't quite get the point I'm making.

This is about the way it is going to be generally perceived, and the created perception is all about Antifa. That's what I mean when I say I've read the news, and all I really get the impression of is "blame Antifa". The fact that in the weight of commentary some people are sometimes a little more careful about distributing accusations only really comes out with specific consideration. (Even then, it's worded to convey the figurative impact "ANTIFA and other groups", even despite a lack of proof of how much Antifa itself is involved.) But most people aren't going to think about that and look carefully, are they?

Thus "Antifa" is manufactured into a generic term for violent (leftist) disorder, rather than a group which traditionally has specific aims. It's a simple enough smear tactic.

The name "Antifa" is already a manufactured title to avoid association with specific aims. The whole point of being named "antifa" is to deflect from the explicit push for communism. "Antifa" as a title is picked specifically to say "we're just against fascism, that's all it is", when the goals are very much communism, but the general public won't defend that. Thus, anti-fascist. To push back and call out what it really is, that's not a smear tactic. That's stating the truth.

 

[Houseman]

They should just name themselves "the good guys". Nobody would ever disagree with "the good guys"!

 

[Agema]

The name "Antifa" is already a manufactured title to avoid association with specific aims. The whole point of being named "antifa" is to deflect from the explicit push for communism.

Well, there you show how little you know right out of the blocks. Antifa much more comes from anarchist politics - hence the black in their logos and flag - and anarchists have a long history of rivalry with communists right from the days of Bakunin and Marx. The diverse nature of political beliefs (not all are even left-wing) in Antifa members is well documented.

Secondly, until perhaps relatively recently in the USA with Trump, you'd be lucky to ever see Antifa without a right-wing rally for them to counter-protest, because that was very much their thing. I'm sure Antifa individuals went on plenty of other demos too, but at an institutional level Antifa is not known for activity at (for instance) bog standard anti-capitalist demonstrations.

 

[tstorm823]

Well, there you show how little you know right out of the blocks. Antifa much more comes from anarchist politics - hence the black in their logos and flag - and anarchists have a long history of rivalry with communists right from the days of Bakunin and Marx. The diverse nature of political beliefs (not all are even left-wing) in Antifa members is well documented.

Secondly, until perhaps relatively recently in the USA with Trump, you'd be lucky to ever see Antifa without a right-wing rally for them to counter-protest, because that was very much their thing. I'm sure Antifa individuals went on plenty of other demos too, but at an institutional level Antifa is not known for activity at (for instance) bog standard anti-capitalist demonstrations.

You really don't seem to understand how this works. Everyone except communists hate communism. The communists know this, so they pretend to be something else. That's the game being played on you.

Edit: the black flag is concealing a red flag. You can't miss that imagery. Black is a front, red is what they are.

 

[Breakdown]

the black flag is concealing a red flag. You can't miss that imagery. Black is a front, red is what they are.

Maybe they're Republicans in disguise.

 

[tstorm823]

Maybe they're Republicans in disguise.

As a Republican: Republicans aren't that clever.

 

[Sneed's SeednFeed]

They should just name themselves "the good guys". Nobody would ever disagree with "the good guys"!

America already took that name sadly.

 

[Revnak]

Maybe this should be locked if it’s gonna just be used to parrot bizarre takes on history and politics rather than talk about the ongoing brutality this was supposed to be about.
Edit- here’s a fun one, have even one of you motherfuckers been to a protest?

 

[Seanchaidh]

There were plenty of anti-fascists in the Weimer Republic who weren't communists and supported liberal democracy.

Apparently not enough to, y'know, do anything about it.

 

[Buyetyen]

Maybe this should be locked if it’s gonna just be used to parrot bizarre takes on history and politics rather than talk about the ongoing brutality this was supposed to be about.
Edit- here’s a fun one, have even one of you motherfuckers been to a protest?

I confess, I have to not gone to a protest yet. In my defense, I've also spent the last couple of weeks dealing with some... medical misfortunes.