National Guard called into Minneapolis

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Sneed's SeednFeed

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(5) I have no idea what you wrote in that last paragraph, but Marx was not against central planning - quite the opposite. Marx thought that centralised capitalist states would be more efficient and would consequently be more economically prepared to handle a socialist mode of production, as it meant that its productivity would be developed to such an extent that one can easily include social welfare and autonomous councils without fear of the democratisation of the factories and the supply chains causing problems in case of a disaster. It's more the nature of the revolution that he changed his mind on before and after the Paris Commune -- initially he supported a concept of a mass domination of the Proletariat (referred to as a Dictatorship in Blanqist terms) towards the Bourgeoisie because according to his analysis, the system under capitalism, even with welfare still is a situation where the Bourgeoisie control the state to enact their class interests as a Dictatorship (worker's parties, for example, when elected still have to submit to the demands of big business and capital circulation if they want to be elected, since as we've seen countless times before, the bourgeoisie can and will deploy terror when this happens (Chile, Bolivia, Brazil, Nicaragua, etc.) and even then, whilst within a bourgeois state apparatus, a worker's party is subject to its machinations and its structure if it is not going into politics with the explicit goal of dismantling capitalism since parliamentarianism under capitalism is a structure that in his view, is built up to support capitalism through the politico-legal apparatus and the alienation of political power to voting rather than striking and direct action).

(6) What is defined as value in Marxian terms is not simply the underside of currency, but the literal process of production itself. Labour power creates value through production - commodities contain a use value, which is directly created by labour. When it's sold off however, a commodity's value is defined in terms of its social value - it's exchange value to be precise, which is determined by the laws of the market in terms of what abstract worth it represents relative to other commodities (the classic example - 30 yards of linen = 1 coat, the former has little to no value to anyone but a skilled tailor, which is a primarily use value that is also mediated by its exchange (quality of the linen, speed of transportation, etc.), yet a coat has a defined and separate use value where it is measured up against other coats (its sturdiness, craftsmanship, dictates of fashion, warmth, etc.), yet on the market, 30 yards is worth as much as 1 coat, despite them being completely different - this is the fundamental grounds for exchange value, one can be exchanged for the other regardless of their use value, despite being different objects, but on the level of social exchange, they are worth the same -- they possess the same social value). The Marxian argument is that the worker creates the commodity using the tools they are provided by the capitalist, the owner of the factory, which they own through their access of capital. When a commodity is sold off, it's surplus value, that of the exchange value + the use value - the wage paid for the labour is always pocketed by the capitalist. This is not in terms of pure currency, since currency is tied to its own caprices and fluctuations, but in terms of the actual material value that is produced and exchanged. Everything else cannot be properly explained by me in these forum posts without becoming very arduous in itself, and something I'd advocate actually reading into. To that end, I recommend the Marx and Engels Reader by Robert Tucker. Rest assured that most questions regarding the circulation of capital, worker's co-ops, social democracy, etc. are addressed in the texts here.


(7) Marxism is not about 'asking people for things' neither. The maxim is 'From each according to his ability, to each according to their need'.
 

tstorm823

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I think if a "regular person" sympathises with neo-Nazis because some protesters cause some damage sometimes, then they're not exhibiting sound judgement and aren't what I would call a "regular person".
Instinctively, I'd say the same about communists sympathizers, but I know better than to assume the average person is immune to extremism.
 

Sneed's SeednFeed

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Of course they try no matter what, but that doesn't mean it works well. When the boogeyman doesn't exist, a neo-nazi can flail about claiming the left wants chaos and destruction all he wants, and regular people are going to go "wow, what a nutjob." When the chaos and destruction actually arrives, and people on the left say "yeah, we support that" it becomes infinitely more difficult for regular people to identify the nutjobs.
If somebody thinks that the racism and fascism that antifa demonstrate against is quantifiably less or equally real than the theory that the jews, blacks and communists control the world through satanic cabals then that's someone already with a loose grip upon reality and reason to begin with. One can debate how concrete such fascism and racism is, and that's why there's entire social fields to its study, because we've historically seen and participated in fascism and racism of one degree or another. Neo nazis meanwhile still claim that jews control the world, much like how Christians in the middle ages were convinced that jews hunt christian women to consume their blood. Notice the discrepancy in boogeymen.
 

Silvanus

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Instinctively, I'd say the same about communists sympathizers, but I know better than to assume the average person is immune to extremism.
I'm assuming nothing of the sort. But somebody doesn't turn to political extremism merely in response to protests by groups they don't like. Extremism is a product of a huge weight of cultural & personal baggage and disconnection from the democratic systems.

The average person can be subjected to those pressures, and the average person can be victim to various efforts to subtly mislead or groom them. But the average person does not view a protest-- in which some property damage was done, but relatively little damage to health and wellbeing-- and swing to political extremism out of sheer contrarianism. Not unless they're being misled by extremist recruiters, or have exceptionally poor judgement.
 

tstorm823

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The average person can be subjected to those pressures, and the average person can be victim to various efforts to subtly mislead or groom them. But the average person does not view a protest-- in which some property damage was done, but relatively little damage to health and wellbeing-- and swing to political extremism out of sheer contrarianism. Not unless they're being misled by extremist recruiters, or have exceptionally poor judgement.
What do you think happens when people take a "with us or against us" stance? What do you think happens when people claim those who say nothing are just as guilty as Nazis? When someone starts demonizing people the inevitable consequence is that they humanize the demons. You tell a man he's just like a Nazi enough times, he'sless likely to decide that he was evil the whole time and more likely to question what you have to say about Nazis. Deliberate divisive rhetoric is exactly that: divisive. You can't divide the world in two and expect the people in the center to only move one direction.
 

happyninja42

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What do you think happens when people take a "with us or against us" stance? What do you think happens when people claim those who say nothing are just as guilty as Nazis? When someone starts demonizing people the inevitable consequence is that they humanize the demons. You tell a man he's just like a Nazi enough times, he'sless likely to decide that he was evil the whole time and more likely to question what you have to say about Nazis. Deliberate divisive rhetoric is exactly that: divisive. You can't divide the world in two and expect the people in the center to only move one direction.
So the reaction people are having to the current situation is now the problem? Because it sounds a lot like you are blaming the group who is responding to current societal pressures, for causing the societal pressures they are reacting too. That's some amazing circular logic to turn the blame back on the ones who have tired of putting up with the original shit in the first place.
 

tstorm823

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So the reaction people are having to the current situation is now the problem? Because it sounds a lot like you are blaming the group who is responding to current societal pressures, for causing the societal pressures they are reacting too. That's some amazing circular logic to turn the blame back on the ones who have tired of putting up with the original shit in the first place.
I am blaming some of the people responding to current pressures for causing other pressures with their rhetoric. Offering the benefit of the doubt to the people you seek to convince avoids the trap and costs nothing.
 

CaitSeith

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Let's suppose that the issue above is solved. Would Antifa disband? I'd venture that the answer would be no.
I'd venture that the answer would be yes. Antifa isn't homogeneous nor have an uniform ideology; those factors make it very likely for the group to shrink down once the current issue is solved. I mean, did France become anarcho-communist after WWII?
 

SupahEwok

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I'd venture that the answer would be yes. Antifa isn't homogeneous nor have an uniform ideology; those factors make it very likely for the group to shrink down once the current issue is solved. I mean, did France become anarcho-communist after WWII?
There was a sizeable movement in France that wanted it to. One of the big reasons for the Marshall plan was to restore functional economies before the pressures of destitution swayed public opinion to communism too much.
 

Silvanus

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What do you think happens when people take a "with us or against us" stance? What do you think happens when people claim those who say nothing are just as guilty as Nazis?
I think the former statement is pretty much a common rhetorical statement, employed by supporters of pretty much any movement in some form or another. You're as likely to hear it from right or left, and it doesn't present any particular reason to tone-police one group more than any other.

I think the latter statement doesn't actually come up very often outside of a fringe internet discourse, and doesn't have any noticeable impact. I've seen people complaining that people say that much more than I've actually seen people saying it.

When someone starts demonizing people the inevitable consequence is that they humanize the demons. You tell a man he's just like a Nazi enough times, he'sless likely to decide that he was evil the whole time and more likely to question what you have to say about Nazis. Deliberate divisive rhetoric is exactly that: divisive. You can't divide the world in two and expect the people in the center to only move one direction.
I don't think people are actually being "told they're just like a Nazi" very often. Again, outside of a fringe internet discourse, perhaps. It isn't a meaningful phenomenon in national politics.

On an admittedly petty side-note, I find it a little ironic to read somebody who tends to defend the POTUS to condemn "deliberate divisive rhetoric". That's the man's wheelhouse.
 

Seanchaidh

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Wow, weird, a death attributed to "antifa" turned out to be a right-wing idiot. Shocking.


A former friend of Carrillo’s — Justin Ehrhardt, who served in the Air Force with him before retiring — said Carrillo’s Facebook posts point to a right-wing extremist group that includes former and active military members. In particular, Carrillo was sharing memes about the so-called “Boogaloo” movement that considers itself a libertarian anti-government citizen militia that is preparing for the next American civil war. Last week, the FBI arrested three adherents to the Boogaloo movement in Nevada, charging them with inciting violence with Molotov cocktails and other explosives at protests over the death of George Floyd.
Those damn commies, amirite?
 
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tstorm823

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On an admittedly petty side-note, I find it a little ironic to read somebody who tends to defend the POTUS to condemn "deliberate divisive rhetoric". That's the man's wheelhouse.
I criticize that crap all the time. If there weren't so many blatant lies about the man, I wouldn't be defending him at all.
 

Secondhand Revenant

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I am blaming some of the people responding to current pressures for causing other pressures with their rhetoric. Offering the benefit of the doubt to the people you seek to convince avoids the trap and costs nothing.
That's a nice way to frame an accusation at others. Spin blaming some people for supposedly pushing them into it into merely giving some people the benefit of the doubt. I am sure it costs you nothing at all to make this generous assumption that just happens to back your attack on others.
 

tstorm823

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That's a nice way to frame an accusation at others. Spin blaming some people for supposedly pushing them into it into merely giving some people the benefit of the doubt. I am sure it costs you nothing at all to make this generous assumption that just happens to back your attack on others.
The criticism works both ways. I've told Republicans that their partisan rhetoric is recruitment for Democrats. That every word out of their mouth that can even be inferred as racist pushes public opinion toward communism. it just so happens there's nobody to say that to here. There are, however, communists, and those who sympathize with them, not realizing the inevitable consequences of their words.
 
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Secondhand Revenant

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The criticism works both ways. I've told Republicans that their partisan rhetoric is recruitment for Democrats. That every word out of their mouth that can even be inferred as racist pushes public opinion toward communism. it just so happens there's nobody to say that to here. There are, however, communists, and those who sympathize with them, not realizing the inevitable consequences of their words.
Doesn't matter. In this particular argument it isn't just a matter of a generous assumption. There's no one here you're giving the benefit of the doubt. In this instance you're using it to push your position, and saying it has no cost to do so. Seems disingenuous when it's not about cost but whether your purported consequences are a real thing.
 

tstorm823

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Doesn't matter. In this particular argument it isn't just a matter of a generous assumption. There's no one here you're giving the benefit of the doubt. In this instance you're using it to push your position, and saying it has no cost to do so. Seems disingenuous when it's not about cost but whether your purported consequences are a real thing.
So the only problem is my opposition to the popular opinion of this space? That's what it is? As long as I agree with you here, it doesn't matter why or how, you wouldn't find it disingenuous?
 

Revnak

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ObsidianJones

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What's wrong with that, at least in my view, is that, again, Antifa's definition of fascism is far more broad than what's usually used. So in a world where no fascist government existed, and democracy existed for all, I have to ask, what would Antifa do? My own answer is that it would keep fighting against "fascists." And considering that Antifa is pretty much a mixture of anarchism and communism, pretty much everything on the political compass is right wing of them. FFS, I'm right wing of them, yet left of centre.
In a world without crime, would we have the police? In a world free or injury or illness, what would the medical profession be? Or, why hasn't the Poleraters, enemy of the political mindset of the Dark Moons of Mars disbanded on the account that the political mindset of the Dark Moons of Mars doesn't exist?

Well, they haven't disbanded because they don't exist, but that's really the issue here. A point arguing the validity of the future continued existence of a political movement that counters current polices IF said policies were no longer to exist is as grounded in reality as me talking about the Poleraters. That situation isn't here. We live in now, where fascism does have its grips on certain segments of American citizens now.

You fear a possible future where Antifa is not quelled even if fascism is erased. I fear this current future if more people don't react to an outrage like it's actually an outrage.
 
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Houseman

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You fear a possible future where Antifa is not quelled even if fascism is erased
The TSA and the Patriot act still exist. How many terrorist attacks have they prevented? Do you think they should be kept around, or that they've overstayed their welcome?
History has made it clear that powers rarely stop and dissolve once they've achieved their original goals.

Focusing on the here-and-now and ignoring the future consequences is naive.

It's like paying the Mafia to guard your shop from thieves.
 
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Avnger

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The TSA and the Patriot act still exist. How many terrorist attacks have they prevented? Do you think they should be kept around, or that they've overstayed their welcome?
History has made it clear that powers rarely stop and dissolve once they've achieved their original goals.

Focusing on the here-and-now and ignoring the future consequences is naive.
Because a bunch of teenagers and 20-somethings larping around in black airsoft gear is EXACTLY the same as the TSA and Patriot Act.

 
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