Conflict between Palestine and Israel escalates

[Hawki]

You haven't stopped being absurd.

And you haven't stopped giving non-answers.

[Citation needed]

In the very post I'm responding to, you advocate for it via the US.

I guess it's just time to make shit up!

Again, it's your own post, and your own proposal for deportation via the US.

So... they are from where they are, basically.

Arabs.

ARABS.

ARABIA.

What, you think the Arabic conquest of the Levant in the 7th century never happened? That there was never any process of Arabization?

I've proposed giving Hamas more accurate weapons so they can properly fight back against a Jewish Supremacist regime without indiscriminate rocket attacks when that regime breaks truces and ethnically cleanses neighborhoods. I'd rather Fatah win if we're just looking at the goals of the organizations, but it's kind of a shambles. Hamas is the one that is fighting back.

Hamas's goal isn't defensive, it's making all of the land an Islamic state. If you want to give Hamas more powerful weapons, feel tree to talk to Iran and Qatar (among other sources), but you're still implicitly supporting the goal. I'll also point out that the last time the US funded Islamic jihadists, it didn't end well for the US.

If you're talking about Fatah, Fatah's absolutely more preferable to Hamas in that it isn't openly genocidal, and is willing to accept a two-state solution. Both Fatah and Israel have had plenty of leadership failures, but Fatah is a preferable alternative to Hamas, including Palestinians (unless you're into the whole de-Christianization, beheading, firing squad, totalitarianism thing).

Why would a Hamas victory necessarily result in anyone having to leave Palestine who doesn't want to?

I've explained why in this thread, and this very post.

Hamas's goal, AT BEST (this is giving Hamas the benefit of the doubt, which is benefit that's dubious), is a single Islamic state with Jerusalem as an Islamic capital. That hasn't ended up well for the Jews in any country in the region (it hasn't really ended well for anyone who isn't Muslim, but that's a wider issue).

I support them going wherever they like that isn't stolen from someone else, and with ample resources provided by my own government (USA) to make it a smooth transition in cases where the leaving isn't voluntary.

So, basically, you want the US to facilitate the removal of around 8 million people by force.

Sure man, whatever floats your boat.

This is despite the fact that so many are basically genocidal racists.

Genocidal racists are the group you support, so don't give me that BS.

Where do all the Palestinian refugees displaced by Israeli ethnic cleansing go now?

I've already listed every possible solution to the issue I've come across, and none are perfect, even if some are worse than others. The absolutely perfect solution would be a single, secular state where the two groups could live in peace, but that's an impossibility. So, keeping in mind the facts on the ground, I'd want either a two-state solution, or a three-state solution, with Jerusalem returned to the original plan for being administered by the UN. At the very least, a Palestinian state of some kind would help facilitate the ability to return, plus ending Israel's occupation (alternatively there's the three state solution). Make it 1967 borders, make it 1947 borders, heck, redraw the borders if that's what it takes. Hardline Jews don't get all of Judaea, hardline Arabs don't get all of Palestine. Some Palestinians will never be able to get their homes back outside the West Bank, just as some Jews will never get their homes back in the West Bank and in the wider region, but it's preferable to the situation as it stands.

Hardly perfect, but it's better than your solution (dare I say, a final solution) of removing the problem by simply removing one group entirely. That goes to Hamas as much as every Zionist fuckwit who wants a giant ethnostate.

Ceasefire annouced.

(Something, quote system is messed up).

I've seen Hamas claiming victory as well.

Really, it's beside the point. If you think any of this is going to change the realpolitik of the situation, you've got more faith than me.[/QUOTE]

 

[tstorm823]

If you're talking about Fatah, Fatah's absolutely more preferable to Hamas in that it isn't openly genocidal, and is willing to accept a two-state solution. Both Fatah and Israel have had plenty of leadership failures, but Fatah is a preferable alternative to Hamas, including Palestinians (unless you're into the whole de-Christianization, beheading, firing squad, totalitarianism thing).

There's not point trying to have this argument. Seanchaidh supports whatever group is most explicitly anti-US, because the US is synonymous with capitalism, and that is the only issue on the entire planet worth caring about.

 

[Hawki]

There's not point trying to have this argument. Seanchaidh supports whatever group is most explicitly anti-US, because the US is synonymous with capitalism, and that is the only issue on the entire planet worth caring about.

Probably true, but that aside, I find it astounding in regards to the amount of attention Israel gets compared to other countries.

That's not to say that Israel isn't worthy of criticism (it absolutely is), but nothing gets people out on the streets like an anti-Israel protest. I'm wary of making this argument, because bad deeds in Country A don't excuse bad deeds in Country B, but there's something about Israel that really, REALLY pisses people off. Like, right now, the Myanmar coup is still ongoing, and over 800 people are dead, but there were no street marches for that. Some small protests, maybe, but nothing that fills the streets like the Israel-Palestine conflict. Even in the context of occupation, we hear nary a peep about Morocco, or Tibet, or Chechnya, or Ukraine, or anything else.

That said, if the left has an unwavering hatred of Israel, the right seems to have an unwavering support of it as well, so there is that I guess.

 

[tstorm823]

That said, if the left has an unwavering hatred of Israel, the right seems to have an unwavering support of it as well, so there is that I guess.

These are not unrelated. The left has an unwavering hatred of Israel because the right supports it, and inevitably the opposite is also true, cyclically. If either side in America started to argue in force that Crimea really should be part of Russia, it would equally become a political football, that for some reason would then spread the entire globe.

 

[dreng3]

Seeing as al-Aqsa was just stormed by israeli police it seems like the trouble might not be entirely over yet.

 

[Dreiko]

I don't think the left hates Israel, it's just a segment of the SJW arm of the left that just wants to virtue signal so they seek oppressed groups to support. It just so happens that this time you have two historically oppressed groups going at it so they're playing the intersectionality bingo and tallying who has more oppression points and supporting the winner, which in turn ends up making them bigots who are against an oppressed group in the process.


See, the whole idea is that you can be oppressed while oppressing someone, simultaneously, and enumerating how much each side has earned in victim points is not a correct way of going about interacting with the world.

Nobody is all good or all evil, nobody is pure and nobody is tainted fully, and tackling such complex issues with this sort of mentality where the palestinians are holier than thou despite the fact that if they had won the war in the 60s the jews would have met a much worse fate than they did in the subsequent years just doesn't produce a realistic solution and comes off as bigoted.


Basically whoever wins is evil, because for them to have won there had to have been a loser. There's no right or wrong in this thinking, virtue lies with loss and defeat and failure. Such a mindset clearly doesn't lead to success and progress.

 

[Agema]

Seeing as al-Aqsa was just stormed by israeli police it seems like the trouble might not be entirely over yet.

Oh my lord. Seriously??

They could hardly try harder to undermine the ceasefire. That or they've decided that Hamas will honour the ceasefire, so it gives them excuse to trash the mosque without inciting much reprisal.

 

[dreng3]

Oh my lord. Seriously??

They could hardly try harder to undermine the ceasefire. That or they've decided that Hamas will honour the ceasefire, so it gives them excuse to trash the mosque without inciting much reprisal.

Or they want Hamas to retaliate since apparently the ceasefire didn't really include any concessions from Israel. That way Hamas could be painted as a group that will immediately go back on their words.

And besides, I don't think the conflict has lasted long enough to ensure that Bibi will remain in power, and thus out of prison.

 

[SilentPony]

So do Israelis seriously have NO sense of irony or sinking gut feelings when they storm places of worship with grenades, dragging men and women out screaming to be hung? No like...racial flashbacks or elderly grandmothers ready to tan their hides when they get home?
Or is this the Firefly Reavers and that one survivor where the only way to cope with such trauma and violence is to become that violence?

 

[Seanchaidh]

I've already listed every possible solution to the issue I've come across, and none are perfect, even if some are worse than others. The absolutely perfect solution would be a single, secular state where the two groups could live in peace, but that's an impossibility.

No, it isn't. It's only an impossibility as long as Israel remains in control.

Again, it's your own post, and your own proposal for deportation via the US.

If one person steals the land of someone else, "settles" it, then in the process of making right that harm and returning the land back the party that settled the land would have to move. Do you disagree? Is this "ethnic cleansing" or is it returning land to its rightful owner?

I've explained why in this thread, and this very post.

You haven't explained why you think it is necessary, not even close-- unless your reasoning is normally extremely flimsy and this is just the best you can do. You've only asserted why you think it would happen based on a shallow and outdated reading of Hamas's goals. Whatever its charter says, Hamas are elected representatives of the Palestinian people and derive their power from being such, and there is no particular reason to think that the Palestinian people must share the desire for an Islamic state, especially not one of the particular character you describe.

 

[tstorm823]

Oh my lord. Seriously??

They could hardly try harder to undermine the ceasefire. That or they've decided that Hamas will honour the ceasefire, so it gives them excuse to trash the mosque without inciting much reprisal.

The story justifying it (again) was that people starting throwing rock and moltovs at the Israeli police (again).

 

[dreng3]

The story justifying it (again) was that people starting throwing rock and moltovs at the Israeli police (again).

Of which there has been no real evidence, I've seen a short clip of someone throwing a molotov, but that was during fighting, not before.

 

[tstorm823]

Of which there has been no real evidence, I've seen a short clip of someone throwing a molotov, but that was during fighting, not before.

I have seen the same clip, and also questioned the timing, but that's still some pretty good circumstantial evidence that someone was at the mosque already prepared to light police on fire.

 

[dreng3]

I have seen the same clip, and also questioned the timing, but that's still some pretty good circumstantial evidence that someone was at the mosque already prepared to light police on fire.

I mean, what happened last time they went to the mosque?

 

[tstorm823]

I mean, what happened last time they went to the mosque?

The last time they went to the mosque, some of the people inside threw rocks at police and set a tree on fire with fireworks. And the internet pretended Israel lit the mosque on fire and danced in the light of the flame. It's almost like people have made attacking Israeli police at that mosque a political win with no downside.

 

[Seanchaidh]

The last time they went to the mosque, some of the people inside threw rocks at police and set a tree on fire with fireworks. And the internet pretended Israel lit the mosque on fire and danced in the light of the flame. It's almost like people have made attacking Israeli police at that mosque a political win with no downside.

Now we know what the Israeli propaganda says about it. Thanks, tstorm823. So what actually happened?

 

[tstorm823]

Now we know what the Israeli propaganda says about it. Thanks, tstorm823. So what actually happened?

It's nice to know that you so forwardly admit that after all of your own posted propaganda you have no idea what is going on and have to ask me.

 

[SilentPony]

Now we know what the Israeli propaganda says about it. Thanks, tstorm823. So what actually happened?

If I had to guess some Israeli soldiers, young dumb and full of cum, decided fuck it, we have all these weapons and those dirty Muslims aren't people like us, let's go use them!
If you watch the videos of the clashes, neither side looks like an organized force. The Palestinians looks like a bunch of furious civilians throwing rocks and molotov cocktails, and the Israeli's look like a bunch of kids cosplaying the Combine throwing flash grenades. You can see them running up like kids in dodgeball ready to throw primed grenades, see a camera and then act all cool and relaxed, embarrassed they're on camera, and just sulk away kicking rocks because they didn't get to use their cool bang bangs. They don't look like a police force, military or otherwise. They look like a bunch of over-hyped arrogant kids running around as tough guys, but afraid of being identified.

 

[Trunkage]

A Jewish journalist from the AP has been canceled by the likes of Tom Cotton for 'pro-Palestianian views' from her college days

Outcry after Associated Press journalist fired amid row over pro-Palestinian views

News agency decision to fire Emily Wilder criticised after rightwing media highlight her previous activism in college

www.google.com

The same mosque is being surrounded and fighting is going on... after the ceasefire

Israeli forces in violent confrontations with Palestinians outside Jerusalem's Al Aqsa mosque after Gaza ceasefire | CNN

Israeli security forces used stun grenades and rubber bullets against Palestinians outside the Al Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem, where thousands of worshipers had been attending Friday prayers, puncturing a half-day of calm brought on by a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas.

www.google.com

 

[Seanchaidh]

" A CNN journalist at the mosque compound said dozens of Israeli officers hit journalists with batons and tried to point rifles at them, calling them "liars" when they showed them their press cards. "

And people wonder why I don't know what happened with any surety.