Conflict between Palestine and Israel escalates

Trunkage

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" A CNN journalist at the mosque compound said dozens of Israeli officers hit journalists with batons and tried to point rifles at them, calling them "liars" when they showed them their press cards. "

And people wonder why I don't know what happened with any surety. šŸ™ƒ
Sorry after this nonsense with Cuomo and his brother and CNN saying 'its all cool' I'm having a real hard time taking CNN seriously

Not saying it didnt happen. My 'trust' of them has significantly reduced
 

Seanchaidh

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Sorry after this nonsense with Cuomo and his brother and CNN saying 'its all cool' I'm having a real hard time taking CNN seriously

Not saying it didnt happen. My 'trust' of them has significantly reduced
Given that CNN was OK with hiring pro-Israeli shill Wolf Blitzer, if they say anything that reflects poorly on Israel then it is probably true.
 

Revnak

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It's nice to know that you so forwardly admit that after all of your own posted propaganda you have no idea what is going on and have to ask me.
Yes, the propaganda of the famously tech savvy and commonly English speaking membership of Hamas, with so much weight to coerce news companies with their non-existent economy and being viewed as a terrorist organization by every major power in the world.

Edit: in short, the only difference between Israel and SA, Hamas and Mandela, is the Soviet Union doesnā€™t exist anymore to complain about it and arm the ā€œterrorists.ā€
 
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tstorm823

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Yes, the propaganda of the famously tech savvy and commonly English speaking membership of Hamas, with so much weight to coerce news companies with their non-existent economy and being viewed as a terrorist organization by every major power in the world.

Edit: in short, the only difference between Israel and SA, Hamas and Mandela, is the Soviet Union doesnā€™t exist anymore to complain about it and arm the ā€œterrorists.ā€
I'm sure you haven't been clicking all Seanchaidh's tweet sources scattered though multiple threads, because who the hell would click them all, but it's included stuff like footage of a dramatized recreation of events made for an explicitly pro-Palestinian documentary made years ago.
 

Hawki

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No, it isn't. It's only an impossibility as long as Israel remains in control.
It was an impossibility in the region for decades before Israel was established, and it's been an impossibility in the entire region.

If one person steals the land of someone else, "settles" it, then in the process of making right that harm and returning the land back the party that settled the land would have to move. Do you disagree? Is this "ethnic cleansing" or is it returning land to its rightful owner?
You do realize that I could use this exact question to propose that all Arabs should move back to their historic homeland, right? That it's the kind of question that could be used to justify expelling all Palestinians?

To answer your question, no, I don't agree to your proposition. A proposition that, even if entirely in self-interest, I'd have to disagree with, since you'd have to move from America, and I'd have to move from Australia, even if I'm a first generation Aussie (don't know how long your family has been in the US, but it's beside the point). If you want to return this particular piece of land to its historic owners, then those owners are the Jews - they pre-date the Arabization of the region (said process being part of their dispersal), and the archeological, genetic, and cultrual records are clear. So on one hand, the Jews have constantly lived in the area, despite waves of invasions and in the case of the Arabs, 'settling' it. I just don't think that should give them sole ownership over historic Judaea. On the other hand, that the Arabs won the region by conquest doesn't mean they get to obliterate the indigenous populations.

As I've said, ideally, the land could be shared. It hasn't been. Not in Israel, not anywhere since the fall of the Ottoman Empire, and even then, if you weren't Muslim, you were relegated to second-class status ("dhimis," or whatever the term was). Hence why a two-state solution was even necessary.

You haven't explained why you think it is necessary, not even close-- unless your reasoning is normally extremely flimsy and this is just the best you can do.
I've explained countless times. If you lack the reading comprehension, that's on you.

You could try explaining why an Islamic state under Hamas would operate differently from every Islamic state in the region.

You've only asserted why you think it would happen based on a shallow and outdated reading of Hamas's goals.
Unless Hamas's goals have changed since their last charter (2017), I don't see how it's outdated.

Hamas's goal is explicit: a single Islamic state. That hasn't ended well for any non-Muslim group in the Islamic world, especially since the 20th century (and even further back), and certainly not the Jews. It hasn't ended well for non-Muslims under Hamas either - how do you think Christians are doing in Gaza these days?

This is also giving Hamas the benefit of the doubt, which is doubt that is dubious.

Whatever its charter says, Hamas are elected representatives of the Palestinian people and derive their power from being such, and there is no particular reason to think that the Palestinian people must share the desire for an Islamic state, especially not one of the particular character you describe.
The Germans elected Hitler as well.

That aside, yes, the Palestinians voted for Hamas. They're entitled to vote for Hamas. Perhaps some of them are doing so under the basis of wanting Hamas but not agreeing with its goals. But the facts are clear:

1: Hamas wants a single Islamic state that covers all of Mandate Palestine, with Jerusalem as its capital.

2: Every single Islamic state in the region has ethnically cleansed its country of Jews, and life is bad for non-Muslims in every single case.

3: That has remained the case under Hamas in the Gaza Strip - the strip was emptied of Jews when Hamas took control (to stay would be a death sentence), and Christians have gone from 4200 from when Hamas tool control to several hundred, and the persecution continues, including, but not limited to, the death penalty for homosexuals, endorses honour killings, the use of human shields, throwing political opponents off rooftops, and desecrated Christians and Jewish holy sites.

If you want Hamas to rule over Palestine, that's your right. But at least be honest what that means, or if you think it means something else, what the historical record involves for Islamic states, much less Islamic terror groups. Anyone recall ISIS? Anyone recall what happened to non-Muslims (heck, even moderate Muslims) under their territory?
 
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Seanchaidh

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3: That has remained the case under Hamas in the Gaza Strip - the strip was emptied of Jews when Hamas took control (to stay would be a death sentence)
They were removed by Israel.
 

Trunkage

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It was an impossibility in the region for decades before Israel was established, and it's been an impossibility in the entire region.
Impossible? Like Britain made a promise and it didn't keep it. That's not impossible, that's just continuing the position of the Ottoman's onto both the Jews who stayed in Israel for 2000 years and the Palestinians. They had 20 years to do something and they did nothing

I don't know what would happen if the Entente kept their promises. But it probably wouldn't have turned a lot of the middle east against the west
 
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dreng3

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A Jewish journalist from the AP has been canceled by the likes of Tom Cotton for 'pro-Palestianian views' from her college days
There was a more recent post from this May where she might have appeared to question whether or not news tended to be biased in favour of Israel, which could be perceived as a political bias (I consider it more of a commentary on any kind of journalism in an polarized society), and since the AP has a super strict policy when it comes to political bias and social media they might have been justified in terminating her contract.

Though I'd say that this is an actual example of what is considered cancel culture, I don't in any way consider someone supporting a free Palestine something that merits firing, it isn't unethical or amoral, unlike certain others who go on racist or misogynistic rants and then wail about the consequences coming back to bite them.
 

Hawki

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Impossible? Like Britain made a promise and it didn't keep it. That's not impossible, that's just continuing the position of the Ottoman's onto both the Jews who stayed in Israel for 2000 years and the Palestinians. They had 20 years to do something and they did nothing

I don't know what would happen if the Entente kept their promises. But it probably wouldn't have turned a lot of the middle east against the west
More specifically two promises that became/were mutually exclusive.

It's not true that Britain did nothing though (e.g. they tried to negotiate settlements and limit Jewish immigration), but they failed.

As for broken Entente promises, maybe, but I doubt it. In the context of Israel-Palestine specifically, the violence started as soon as Jews began moving into the area in the 19th century, even if it went into overdrive from the 20s to 40s. You don't need Western imperialism to explain Arab-Jewish enmity.
 

Revnak

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More specifically two promises that became/were mutually exclusive.

It's not true that Britain did nothing though (e.g. they tried to negotiate settlements and limit Jewish immigration), but they failed.

As for broken Entente promises, maybe, but I doubt it. In the context of Israel-Palestine specifically, the violence started as soon as Jews began moving into the area in the 19th century, even if it went into overdrive from the 20s to 40s. You don't need Western imperialism to explain Arab-Jewish enmity.
Bull. Zionism as a movement is a reaction to the spread of nationalism throughout Europe after the French Revolution. It is very clearly inspired by and rooted in the exact same ideals as those that led to the carving up of Africa. You absolutely cannot explain anything about modern Jewish-Arab enmity without understanding western imperialism, and thatā€™s without including how many nationalist and religious movements in the region are rooted in being mad about how they were fucked over by the white devils after WWI.
 

Hawki

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Bull. Zionism as a movement is a reaction to the spread of nationalism throughout Europe after the French Revolution. It is very clearly inspired by and rooted in the exact same ideals as those that led to the carving up of Africa. You absolutely cannot explain anything about modern Jewish-Arab enmity without understanding western imperialism, and thatā€™s without including how many nationalist and religious movements in the region are rooted in being mad about how they were fucked over by the white devils after WWI.
That isn't refuting what I said.

Anti-Jewish enmity has roots in the Arab world from the 7th century, where the earliest Muslim conquests expelled/destroyed entire tribes of Jews from the region. That level of enmity has waxed and waned by location and time. Zionism increased that enmity, true, but the root causes go further back.
 

Revnak

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That isn't refuting what I said.

Anti-Jewish enmity has roots in the Arab world from the 7th century, where the earliest Muslim conquests expelled/destroyed entire tribes of Jews from the region. That level of enmity has waxed and waned by location and time. Zionism increased that enmity, true, but the root causes go further back.
Is the root of anti-Semitism in Italy the fucking Roman Empire? Maybe, but if you wrote that op-ed Iā€™d still call it trash for focusing on a comparative triviality, and it certainly doesnā€™t explain it.
 

tstorm823

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Is the root of anti-Semitism in Italy the fucking Roman Empire? Maybe, but if you wrote that op-ed Iā€™d still call it trash for focusing on a comparative triviality, and it certainly doesnā€™t explain it.
Ah, so now we have two people who think history started with capitalism and that is the only issue worth caring about.
 

Hawki

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Is the root of anti-Semitism in Italy the fucking Roman Empire? Maybe, but if you wrote that op-ed Iā€™d still call it trash for focusing on a comparative triviality, and it certainly doesnā€™t explain it.
First, this isn't about Italy or the Roman Empire, so that's a red herring.

Second, it's pointless to go to the roots of anti-semitism in of itself, which depending on who you ask, go at least as far back as Egypt and Greece.

Third, unlike the above examples, there's a clear causal link from the emergence of Islam, to the scattering/slaughtering of Jews, to the state of affairs that we have today in the Middle East. A state of affairs that Zionism undoubtedly played a part in exacerbating, as I've stated, but this isn't a vacuum. You can't separate the Holocaust from Europe's history of anti-semitism, no matter how many people might want to, and have attempted to do so in some circles. Similarly, the Arab world doesn't get a free pass on its treatment of Jews and other minorities simply because of Israel.

Fourth, if anti-semitism in the Arab world is solely attributable to the creation of Israel, it's an case of effect preceeding cause. Zionism began in the 19th century, Jews began moving into Israel in the late 19th century, Mandate Palestine became a thing after the end of WWI, Israel was created in 1947. As I've said, anti-semitism in the Arab world has waxed and waned by time and location, but there was an upsurge in anti-Jewish sentiment in the 19th century and continued onwards, well before Israel was established, and it's common in Muslim countries well outside the Middle East, even if not to the same extent.

Fifth, even if it was, it takes a warped mind to say "country is bad, so it's justifiable to treat people of that country poorly."

Ah, so now we have two people who think history started with capitalism and that is the only issue worth caring about.
Um...

Not sure what capitalism has to do with this. Certainly nothing to do with anti-semitism or anti-Zionism or, well, anything.
 
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Trunkage

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There was a more recent post from this May where she might have appeared to question whether or not news tended to be biased in favour of Israel, which could be perceived as a political bias (I consider it more of a commentary on any kind of journalism in an polarized society), and since the AP has a super strict policy when it comes to political bias and social media they might have been justified in terminating her contract.

Though I'd say that this is an actual example of what is considered cancel culture, I don't in any way consider someone supporting a free Palestine something that merits firing, it isn't unethical or amoral, unlike certain others who go on racist or misogynistic rants and then wail about the consequences coming back to bite them.
Did I misread? I thought that was a retweet. Or maybe I was looking at the wrong one
 

Trunkage

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Anti-Jewish enmity has roots in the Arab world from the 7th century, where the earliest Muslim conquests expelled/destroyed entire tribes of Jews from the region
What specifically are you talking about?
 

Hawki

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What specifically are you talking about?
Um, the Islamic conquests of the 7th century? As I stated?

If you're asking about specific tribes, there's the Qaynuqa and the Nadir, for instance.
 

Dreiko

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I think America being a young nation has this blind spot about how far back old nations look at their history and how recent it feels to them despite feeling ancient and irrelevant to american-born folks. Like growing up I was hearing about Socrates and Homer like how you hear about the founding fathers in America, it didn't feel any more ancient in the way it was linked to modern day affairs. In arab countries the crusades apparently are thought of as relevant as well, since for example when Bush spoke of new crusades after the twin towers fell down it apparently triggered a whole bunch of nations who apparently had kept the history of the original crusades very alive in their minds, and I guess Jews are very much in that vein.


So yeah point is, it's a very uniquely american take to only start counting history from a more recent starting point, the way a ton of people are brought up makes them draw the connection to the oldest point and makes them feel affected by historic events from literally thousands of years ago. Like in Greece we'd still call Istanbul Constantinopole, that's just normal, if someone called it istanbul most people would either not know what he's talking about or confuse it for speaking a foreign language. And Instanbul has been lost to the ottomans since 1453 or whenever it was, basically almost 600 years now, from before the founding of America, yet nothing has changed in how we saw it lol. In a sense it's still seen as occupied territory that nobody cares to free from the ottomans(turkey) but you bet if the UN carved off a part of Turkey to give us back Constantinople we'd frogleap at the opportunity. Expecting these things to change because they're old by american standards is not how this thing works.
 
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