Dark Horse Comics Is Looking At Getting Into The Video Game Business

[Dreiko]

I most certainly am not a rocket surgeon then since my takeaway from these numbers, if true, is that comics actually can be commercially viable without having to branch into other ventures.

I think we all know that because they used to do that in the west too. So yeah, the point is to show the differences between comics of old and Japanese manga and the current woke comics industry and figure out why they're not achieving that level of success right now.

 

[Gordon_4]

I keep forgetting this game not only exists but is still fairly new.

I have a feeling most people forget this game exists. I’m sure Square Enix wish they could.

 

[happyninja42]

If anything, other than Spider-Man and Batman, games based off of comics books are in a worst position now than they were back then. Avengers was beyond abysmal and Ultimate Alliance 3 while a better game, is just alright. We need more than Injustice or M vs. C. Where's my good Thor game, Aquaman (DMC style? Sign me up!), Wonder Woman, another Hulk game similar to Ultimate Destruction? We've either get none of it, because no one wants to put in the effort, or make with (un)intentional substitutes where usually better effort and quality is put in. God of War 4 is basically a Thor game, and Miles Morales is a Static Shock game (or Thor for @happyninja42). The inFamous games are also considered the best Static Shock games or X-Men games ever made. Even Ghost of Tshushima feels like a Samurai-Ninja-Batman game and is a super hero game of sorts.

Yeah, Miles Morales feels like both a Thor alternate, and VERY much like inFamous. Modern day setting with lightning powers. Loved that series, and Miles Morales definitely brought back memories of why I loved them so much. If they made a Thor game using the Spiderman combat mechanics and stuff, I'd be so down for that shit. Or rebooted inFamous. Oh man I'd love to see that. Doesn't even need to be Cole McGrath again. Just give me someone with lightning powers and a city to run around in, and be awesome in, and I'm down. I'd just love to see Sucker Punch dive back into the superhero genre, as I think they knocked it out of the park, back during a time when nobody really knew how to do them well.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

I think we all know that because they used to do that in the west too. So yeah, the point is to show the differences between comics of old and Japanese manga and the current woke comics industry and figure out why they're not achieving that level of success right now.

I know what article you're referring too and the short version is that the math is hilariously flawed.

Like, is a year's of freshly translated manga from one of the hottest anime's of the season released at a faster rate because it's only being translated selling better than a month's worth of direct seller floppies being released in comic book stores exclusively distributed by Diamond Distributing?

Yes.

Is that a useful comparison?

No.

It's more likely a combination of this:

There's quite a few factors that are doing in western comics.
1) Issue-led business model. Everything gets sold as individual issues first before having a chance of becoming a trade paperback, which doesn't really reflect how people actually want to buy their comics. Individual issues are terrible value for money and physically fragile, and I've certainly never bought one myself. It also means there's a significant delay between some issues being released and them being released in a format most people want. In contrast, western releases of manga go straight to tankōbon.
2) Price. Manga is printed on cheap paper in black and white so runs to about £8 a volume on a new release, which is about 8-9 chapters. Western trade paperbacks are printed in full colour on glossy paper and you get about 5 issues for £9-£13.
3) The west does not have a thriving animation industry churning out faithful adaptations of ongoing comics that might induce people to pick up the source material. This is a large avenue for promotion of manga, strong adaptations at the all you can eat anime buffet will induce people back to the comics.
4) Fuck all subculture and promotional media for comics. Even if you're aware of the comics industry beyond Marvel and DC it's not particularly easy to stay informed about what's coming out and what you might be interested in.

A lot of great comics came out in the last decade alone. Saga, Paper Girls, Sex Criminals, Southern Bastards, Descender, The Wicked+The Divine, Die, East of West, Lumberjanes, and Sunstone are just a small selection, but it's hard to get even good stuff over the obstacles listed. Image's position is pretty much secure, since their business model is still probably the best deal for creators (Every comic I listed above except Lumberjanes is an Image book), but the other small publishers will likely need every licensed comic they can get along with some other revenue streams to keep the lights on.

...and a variety of other problems including the fact that they just don't fucking end. And not in a One Piece sort of way, but in a "you get *maybe* 6 issues for a story and then it get interrupted by the semiannual World Changing Event That Precedes The Next World Changing Event" and then comes back with a different writer, artist, colorist, letterist, editor, mailman, and barista.

Would One Piece be popular if it was crossing over with the rest of Shonen Jump every three volumes and came back each time with a new writer and artist? And if it started failing, would you blame that on how it's being published or on it having a couple trans characters?

Dark Horse, for the purposes of this thread, actually avoids a lot of the pit traps plaguing Marvel and DC by having stories with a consistent writer writing the beginning, middle, and end and then having the story be done. You can make a videogame out of those properties and worlds without having the "okay, but what specific flavor of Batman/Spider-Man are we using and why don't all his super powered friends show up to help?" problem.

 

[Dreiko]

I know what article you're referring too and the short version is that the math is hilariously flawed.

Like, is a year's of freshly translated manga from one of the hottest anime's of the season released at a faster rate because it's only being translated selling better than a month's worth of direct seller floppies being released in comic book stores exclusively distributed by Diamond Distributing?

Yes.

Is that a useful comparison?

No.

Dude kimetsu no yaiba is just one manga, there's hundreds of em. Huge stuff like Boku no hero Academia and titans like One piece and so on still exist too, mid range stuff like One Punch Man or Drifting Dragons, not to mention more niche stuff like Mushoku Tensei or Slime Reincarnation. I think the point is very stable because it's not as though Kimetsu is like all manga sales, it's literally just one popular shonen series of which there's a ton.

Also the actual anime ended like almost a year ago now, and they have this movie that did really well in Japan, it's not the bees knees. Boku no Hero Academia is way more current as far as anime goes. You can say that people read the manga to find out what happens next but I would say that's thanks to the manga being interesting enough to inspire such an interesting anime first and foremost.

...and a variety of other problems including the fact that they just don't fucking end. And not in a One Piece sort of way, but in a "you get *maybe* 6 issues for a story and then it get interrupted by the semiannual World Changing Event That Precedes The Next World Changing Event" and then comes back with a different writer, artist, colorist, letterist, editor, mailman, and barista.

Would One Piece be popular if it was crossing over with the rest of Shonen Jump every three volumes and came back each time with a new writer and artist? And if it started failing, would you blame that on how it's being published or on it having a couple trans characters?

Dark Horse, for the purposes of this thread, actually avoids a lot of the pit traps plaguing Marvel and DC by having stories with a consistent writer writing the beginning, middle, and end and then having the story be done. You can make a videogame out of those properties and worlds without having the "okay, but what specific flavor of Batman/Spider-Man are we using and why don't all his super powered friends show up to help?" problem.

While I 100% agree with considering the issues you bring up as real huge problems, problems which for me personally drained any interest in western comics for decades now, I would have to say that this did not just begin happening in the last 5-10 years. They did this back when they were more successful as well. So that can't be the reason for the drop in sales compared to back in like the 80s or what have you.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Dude kimetsu no yaiba is just one manga, there's hundreds of em. Huge stuff like Boku no hero Academia and titans like One piece and so on still exist too, not to mention more niche stuff like Mushoku Tensei or Slime Reincarnation. I think the point is very stable because it's not as though Kimetsu is like all manga sales, it's literally just one popular shonen series of which there's a ton.

Physical manga sales are declining in Japan. Demon Slayer becoming a second One Piece isn't staving that off.

Physical comic sales in the US are growing, and quickly. Just not individual 22 page floppy comics distributed exclusively to comic book stores by Diamond Direct to sell for $4 a pop. It's the graphic novels and kids books published by book publishers and sold in book stores.
And that's taking the general argument. The specific numbers that article uses in particular compares yearly sales to a subsection of monthly sales

While I 100% agree with considering the issues you bring up as real huge problems, problems which for me personally drained any interest in western comics for decades now, I would have to say that this did not just begin happening in the last 5-10 years. They did this back when they were more successful as well. So that can't be the reason for the drop in sales compared to back in like the 80s or what have you.

I was around for the 90's/00's crash and spent many a dime on the back issues from the 80's.

It was the exact same problem. That and the speculator market are *why* they crashed and *why* hot new up-and-coming wunderkids like Liefield were "going to save comics". Of course, the Hot New Diverse Superteams of the 80's/90's would be decried as SJW wokeism if they didn't have 30+ years of nostalgia behind them. I mean, 1975 and they replace the very popular X-men with a Native American, a Russian, a Catholic who looks like a demon, and a combat capable black African woman/goddess? This was the era of comics where Wolverine's actual name was first mentioned by a leprechaun in a side story for christ's sake.

Dark Horse even tried its hand at the "shared superhero world with bunches of crossovers" game in the mid '90s. It collapsed in 3 years. There was one survivor. It is unlikely to become a videogame.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

All that said, Achilles Shieldmaidens would make for a bomb-ass mecha game and Dark Horse should jump all over that.

 

[Dreiko]

Physical manga sales are declining in Japan. Demon Slayer becoming a second One Piece isn't staving that off.

Physical comic sales in the US are growing, and quickly. Just not individual 22 page floppy comics distributed exclusively to comic book stores by Diamond Direct to sell for $4 a pop. It's the graphic novels and kids books published by book publishers and sold in book stores.
And that's taking the general argument. The specific numbers that article uses in particular compares yearly sales to a subsection of monthly sales

I was around for the 90's/00's crash and spent many a dime on the back issues from the 80's.

It was the exact same problem. That and the speculator market are *why* they crashed and *why* hot new up-and-coming wunderkids like Liefield were "going to save comics". Of course, the Hot New Diverse Superteams of the 80's/90's would be decried as SJW wokeism if they didn't have 30+ years of nostalgia behind them. I mean, 1975 and they replace the very popular X-men with a Native American, a Russian, a Catholic who looks like a demon, and a combat capable black African woman/goddess? This was the era of comics where Wolverine's actual name was first mentioned by a leprechaun in a side story for christ's sake.

Dark Horse even tried its hand at the "shared superhero world with bunches of crossovers" game in the mid '90s. It collapsed in 3 years. There was one survivor. It is unlikely to become a videogame.

I think there's a kind of having your cake and eating it too thing going on here in that the comic book industry would not consider kids' picture books sold in bookstores as members of their faction, would not treat them as equals and so on, but now you want them to claim their sales as their own. I don't think you can have both of those things. Also, (and no offense to picture book for kids fans, I've literally no opinion on them beyond "it's cool that people enjoy em") I don't think this is what people have in mind when they compare the western comic book industry to manga . Like that probably also doesn't include the satirical comics you have in newspapers and whatnot and a bunch of other such random stuff either.

And see, back in the 80s and 90s it was actually a somewhat novel concept to have a mixing pot of heroes, so back THEN it actually was kinda creative and different and not creatively bankrupt like how woke things are now (back then the creatively bankrupt thing was being Grimdark). But we are not in that world any longer. Nowadays it's more creative to have a nazi as a not completely irredeemable character than a bunch of gay beings being black while being gay. (and I mean that literally, I was watching Jojo's part 2 and the fact that the Nazi guy while still being evil had some good and helpful moments too and wasn't depicted as cartoonishly one-dimensional felt totally fresh...despite being something that was originally drawn in like the late 80s)

 

[CriticalGaming]

And see, back in the 80s and 90s is was actually a somewhat novel concept to have a mixing pot of heroes, so back THEN it actually was kinda creative and different and not creatively bankrupt like how woke things are now (back then the creatively bankrupt thing was being Grimdark). But we are not in that world any longer. Nowadays it's more creative to have a nazi as a not completely irredeemable character than a bunch of gay beings being black while being gay. (and I mean that literally, I was watching Jojo's part 2 and the fact that the Nazi guy while still being evil had some good and helpful moments too and wasn't depicted as cartoonishly one-dimensional felt totally fresh...despite being something that was originally drawn in like the late 80s)

That is interesting.

Creativity.

These American comic companies are all so huge corporations now that there is no artistry left. Comics jump around so much between artists and writers that how can anyone follow their favorite people anymore?

Garth Ennis wrote the best Punisher shit back in the day and you took notice of his works.

And because comics have gone corporate they have no individual artistry to them. Every book has to go through a committee approval process (or it feels like it does) and that committee has a bunch of diversity specialists that say Thor needs to be a women, there should be an all LBGTQ super hero team, that superman should be black now, etc etc. And there is no allowance for authors to create.

But on the manga side. Each specific manga belongs to one person. Dragonball is Akira Toriyama and no one else. So there is a consistency with the story and the art. While some manga creators do have a team of people that help make each issue, the entire creative direction rests on the original writer.

There seems to be very little if any creative inference from publishers in japan. At least on the manga side of things.

Wanna make a book about a chef whos food is so good everyone who tastes his food has their clothing explode off? Sure.

Wanna write about a pirate made of rubber? Ok.

Wanna write about a high school that creates warrior who have to fuck to gain super powers? Hell yeah there are a lot of these.

 

[Dreiko]

That is interesting.

Creativity.

These American comic companies are all so huge corporations now that there is no artistry left. Comics jump around so much between artists and writers that how can anyone follow their favorite people anymore?

Garth Ennis wrote the best Punisher shit back in the day and you took notice of his works.

And because comics have gone corporate they have no individual artistry to them. Every book has to go through a committee approval process (or it feels like it does) and that committee has a bunch of diversity specialists that say Thor needs to be a women, there should be an all LBGTQ super hero team, that superman should be black now, etc etc. And there is no allowance for authors to create.

But on the manga side. Each specific manga belongs to one person. Dragonball is Akira Toriyama and no one else. So there is a consistency with the story and the art. While some manga creators do have a team of people that help make each issue, the entire creative direction rests on the original writer.

There seems to be very little if any creative inference from publishers in japan. At least on the manga side of things.

Wanna make a book about a chef whos food is so good everyone who tastes his food has their clothing explode off? Sure.

Wanna write about a pirate made of rubber? Ok.

Wanna write about a high school that creates warrior who have to fuck to gain super powers? Hell yeah there are a lot of these.

I think some comic artists are using things like Patreon and kickstarter to support their works and bypass those huge corporations, like the creator of Cyberfrog for example. So their fans have an actual option of following them, and they can maintain ownership of their works. Even they have realized that those corporations are a lost cause, and they've been pretty successful at that too which is something.



But yeah Japan has a very high amount of respect for the artists, like for example the word you would use to refer to a manga artist is the same word they use for doctors over there. They wouldn't even dream of taking dragonball out of Toriyama's hands without his wishes. Also with regards to character voicing, if a voice actor passes away there's times where their character gets removed from a work out of respect for their performance, meanwhile here they'd just recast them in a split second like nothing happened.


Also some of the more recently popular manga are legit solo endeavors that the artists just literally make by themselves and put out in image sharing sites that became popular enough to earn publisher support through seer fan demand, without any staffers or editors involved anywhere at all, stuff like Uzaki Chan wants to hang out or Tsugumomo or please don't tease me Nagatoro for example are literally created by just a single guy without any interference whatsoever. It's a joy to behold.

 

[Thaluikhain]

And because comics have gone corporate they have no individual artistry to them.

The big names are big business. Lots of small names/small business indie stuff out there, just nobody has heard of most of them. Often for a reason, though.

 

[BrawlMan]

All that said, Achilles Shieldmaidens would make for a bomb-ass mecha game and Dark Horse should jump all over that.

I wonder if they can do Dirty Pair? They did their own series of Dirty Pair, that was different from the OG manga and anime, during the 90s and early 2000s. It would be nice to see Kei and Yuri again.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

I think there's a kind of having your cake and eating it too thing going on here in that the comic book industry would not consider kids' picture books sold in bookstores as members of their faction, would not treat them as equals and so on, but now you want them to claim their sales as their own. I don't think you can have both of those things. Also, (and no offense to picture book for kids fans, I've literally no opinion on them beyond "it's cool that people enjoy em") I don't think this is what people have in mind when they compare the western comic book industry to manga .

Stop calling directly distributed floppy comic books "the comic book industry", and stop claiming I've got some hypocrisy going on by using the term "comic book industry" to include all forms of comics.

It would be like me claiming that you believe that the manga industry is only Shonen Jump and that you're a hypocrite for claiming the other bits of the manga industry

And see, back in the 80s and 90s it was actually a somewhat novel concept to have a mixing pot of heroes, so back THEN it actually was kinda creative and different and not creatively bankrupt like how woke things are now (back then the creatively bankrupt thing was being Grimdark). But we are not in that world any longer. Nowadays it's more creative to have a nazi as a not completely irredeemable character than a bunch of gay beings being black while being gay. (and I mean that literally, I was watching Jojo's part 2 and the fact that the Nazi guy while still being evil had some good and helpful moments too and wasn't depicted as cartoonishly one-dimensional felt totally fresh...despite being something that was originally drawn in like the late 80s)

Wait, having an explicitly diverse group of superheroes became woke and creatively bankrupt once it became normal, and if comics wanted to really make a statement they should be less that?

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

But yeah Japan has a very high amount of respect for the artists, like for example the word you would use to refer to a manga artist is the same word they use for doctors over there. They wouldn't even dream of taking dragonball out of Toriyama's hands without his wishes. Also with regards to character voicing, if a voice actor passes away there's times where their character gets removed from a work out of respect for their performance, meanwhile here they'd just recast them in a split second like nothing happened.

Fuck's sake, explain Dragon Ball GT

Literally everything you describe is happening in the US comic market, as long as that market isn't "floppy comics being distributed exclusively by Diamond Direct to comic book stores", from the indies to the printed web comics to the solo endeavors.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Fuck's sake, explain Dragon Ball GT

What about GT?

Toriyama had originally decided to be finished with Dragonball once Z ended. Though Toei Animation wanted to continue making a Dragonball Show, so Toriyama didn't write GT but he did design characters for it and told fans it was a non-canon side story to the universe of Dragonball.

So he was involved and was helped along by the original creator. So I don't really see what you are trying to make with that statement.

Wait, having an explicitly diverse group of superheroes became woke and creatively bankrupt once it became normal, and if comics wanted to really make a statement they should be less that?

I think it is less the idea of the diverse cast itself. Because X-Men had a diverse cast for as long as I could remember. Characters of color also are not a new thing. Luke Cage appeared in 1972 for example.

But what has changed is the writing. Instead of putting together a relatable hero with a solid story and background that also happens to be some flavor of progressive (if that's what they want). But instead they aren't doing that, rather they are deliberately just making new versions of existing characters with some diversity flavoring on them.

Marvel is doing a legacy of Captain America series right now where each issue follows an alternate universe Captain, each one with a different ethnic or LBGT flavor on them. Most recently they made a Filipino American Captain who is a women names Ari....somthing. But turns out that "Ari" in the native language means "C*nt" so... that's fucking funny.

Anyway I also understand you are trying to point out that the comic book world exists beyond the halls of DC and Marvel. Unfortunately the big names get the most attention and considering the lack of overall interest in comics in general these days, being an independant comic publisher or creator has to be exceptionally difficult. And it doesn't help that the big guys are fucking it up so much. There are probably tons of great comics out there published under small labels that blow out the vast majority of the mainstream stuff.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

What about GT?

Toriyama had originally decided to be finished with Dragonball once Z ended. Though Toei Animation wanted to continue making a Dragonball Show, so Toriyama didn't write GT but he did design characters for it and told fans it was a non-canon side story to the universe of Dragonball.

So he was involved and was helped along by the original creator. So I don't really see what you are trying to make with that statement.

They were making a GT with or without Toriyama. Cell and half the androids were created through massive editorial pressure. The idea that "creators do what they want" is a myth.

I think it is less the idea of the diverse cast itself. Because X-Men had a diverse cast for as long as I could remember. Characters of color also are not a new thing. Luke Cage appeared in 1972 for example.

But what has changed is the writing. Instead of putting together a relatable hero with a solid story and background that also happens to be some flavor of progressive (if that's what they want). But instead they aren't doing that, rather they are deliberately just making new versions of existing characters with some diversity flavoring on them.

Yeah, comics didn't used to do the massive numbers of legacy characters thing, please ignore all the supermans that came out after they killed superman.
It's all subjective and, far as motivations go, unknowable. You think Marvel "just happened" to come up with a super team composed of a Native American, a Russian during the Cold War, a Catholic Demon, and an African Goddess in 1975, completely coincidently with no explicit thought behind it?

Anyway I also understand you are trying to point out that the comic book world exists beyond the halls of DC and Marvel. Unfortunately the big names get the most attention and considering the lack of overall interest in comics in general these days, being an independant comic publisher or creator has to be exceptionally difficult. And it doesn't help that the big guys are fucking it up so much. There are probably tons of great comics out there published under small labels that blow out the vast majority of the mainstream stuff.

So?
Dark Horse does all right, the comics industry is growing strong in the US, and more manga exists than is published by Shueisha. The explicit argument is that Marvel and DC *shouldn't* be counted as "The comics book industry", but if they aren't, a lot of narratives about wokeness start falling apart

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Ah, fuck, I did the thing. I'm just muting this thread, sorry for the derail

 

[CriticalGaming]

They were making a GT with or without Toriyama. Cell and half the androids were created through massive editorial pressure. The idea that "creators do what they want" is a myth.

Toriyama sold the rights to use his property to Toei Animation. That in itself is permission, but your point is irrelevant because Akira was a consultant and character designer for the show. He gave them support so you have no evidence to say they somehow bullied their way into making the show whether he wanted it or not.

IIRC Toriyama had said that the BUU saga, not the cell saga was the saga he didn't really want to do. He had envisioned the series ending after Cell. However he had finished that saga before his publishing contract was up and instead fighting them to get out of the contract because he had finished, he made the Buu saga.

Keep in mind that Toriyama is also very inconsistent with his choices. He refused for a long time to never do more Dragonball stuff, but money talks and Dragonball Super was born from publisher and fan pressure....and also likely the fact that NOTHING he ever did was nearly as successful as DBZ.

But Japan has nothing on the way they do books in America. Where writers and artists can change before a "story" is even finished.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

I wonder if they can do Dirty Pair? They did their own series of Dirty Pair, that was different from the OG manga and anime, during the 90s and early 2000s. It would be nice to see Kei and Yuri again.

You know, Dirty Pair would be a fantastic setting for a game. Could even keep a running tally of collateral damage

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

But Japan has nothing on the way they do books in America. Where writers and artists can change before a "story" is even finished.

That is correct of the big two, yeah. I'd say it's the biggest advantage manga has over Marvel and DC. Even with franchises that have multiple writers, you don't have, say, a dozen different Gundams that are running in parallel.