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BrawlMan

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Oh jesus, does it ever matter what news source I find? Everytime i pull an article or source for you to wave it away like, "Oh that news doesn't count. it's a lie, fake news!"

Alright whatever you say. Let me only cite LBGT and liberal sources for you because those wont be bias at all.

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By using the picture of that asshole you're really not helping your case. I know you mentioned that story about those schools before, but they're not that widespread as far as I've seen. Whatever their idea of critical race theory is the complete opposite and wrong. It's not that these institutions are irredeemable racist, but is that they still exist. Institutionalized racism still exist, end of story. It doesn't mean everybody's irredeemable or anybody that's white is automatically a sinner. That's stupid logic. Though there is a big totem pole effect.

Also, I wouldn't trust those new sources either. I know you never going to listen, but that's just me and plenty others.
 

CriticalGaming

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By using the picture of that asshole you're really not helping your case. I know you mentioned that story about those schools before, but they're not that widespread as far as I've seen. Whatever their idea of critical race theory is the complete opposite and wrong. It's not that these institutions are irredeemable racist, but is that they still exist. Institutionalized racism still exist, end of story. It doesn't mean everybody's irredeemable or anybody that's white is automatically a sinner. That's stupid logic. Though there is a big totem pole effect.
Well here is the thing that I don't really like about the term "systematic racism". And it boils down to the idea that if you want to look at things from a racist angle then you can find racism in everything (or damn near everything).

For example, the systemic college process of having lower tester score requirements for admittance from Black students. This was to help black students who often didn't come from great school districts or perhaps didn't bother to pay attention, still get into college. Now is this racist? Sure if you look at it under the assumption that Black people are I guess supposed to be dumber than everyone else therefore they can't possibly match the test scores of other people therefore you lower it just for them and essentially hold them to a lower standard because they can't meet the normal ones, thus labeling them as inferior. You could look at it that way. The other side of that is the higher test score requirement for Asian students, because they are often much higher in academic scores that the normal would be too easy for them so the requirement is raised so that the whole college isn't just Asian kids.

On one side of this "Systemic racism" there is a clear benefit. Black students that apply themselves have a much easier entry point in theory. While the Asian students suffer the flip side of having a much harder to reach standard to basically get the same thing.

But that's really the only example of a "System" that is obviously racist in theory.

The real question is what actual real systems in the U.S. or even the West are built strictly around a racist purpose? See people like to beat this into everyone's head these days. It's all a racist system, and that's why people are struggling, it's not anyone's fault, all our problems are the strict result of the government and society as a whole keeping us down.

There is never any fault on the individual or the group, it's always the higher power. Blacks killing Blacks in Chicago.....must be the government's fault, never mind the fact that the mayor Lori Lightfoot is a black woman. Not only a minority in power but also a female on top of it, and she has the name of a Hobbit. With the violence in Chicago, Detroit, and Los Angeles being heavily minority driven how can anyone in their right mind wonder why the police are extra weary around minority folks? The people have built their own reputation, no system made them do that. No system told them to not get jobs, to destroy their neighborhoods, to rob their own neighbors, no system told them to do that! But when the system tries to step in and put a stop to it, then it's racism?

It's like people simultaneously want to end racism yet also want it to be worse than ever so that they can keep feeding off of it. Because without racism they wouldn't have any more excuse for their problems.

Until these groups actively try to change themselves, and the culture around them in their communities, then nothing will change. Ain't no system stopping them from doing that. Only themselves.
 
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BrawlMan

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There is never any fault on the individual or the group, it's always the higher power. Blacks killing Blacks in Chicago.....must be the government's fault, never mind the fact that the mayor Lori Lightfoot is a black woman. Not only a minority in power but also a female on top of it, and she has the name of a Hobbit. With the violence in Chicago, Detroit, and Los Angeles being heavily minority driven how can anyone in their right mind wonder why the police are extra weary around minority folks? The people have built their own reputation, no system made them do that. No system told them to not get jobs, to destroy their neighborhoods, to rob their own neighbors, no system told them to do that! But when the system tries to step in and put a stop to it, then it's racism?

It's like people simultaneously want to end racism yet also want it to be worse than ever so that they can keep feeding off of it. Because without racism they wouldn't have any more excuse for their problems.

Until these groups actively try to change themselves, and the culture around them in their communities, then nothing will change. Ain't no system stopping them from doing that. Only themselves.
Critical, you can be okay at times, but you are really oblivious and naive. Your long rant is basically just a" but what about this?" You keep doing the same thing. You only look at One direction or a narrow direction. The black on black stuff, that happens. Yes it's never always a government's fault, but there are people who will take advantage of it nor care if it's blacks killing blacks. That doesn't change the fact that systemic racism still exist. You can try to spend any way you want where you say it doesn't happen here or it doesn't happen there, it still happens in places. Heck there was still some races laws that exist in my home state of Michigan they just got rid of. It happened in one of the other counties where you could be stopped for anything even if it was just a traffic stop or parking violation. It was a law that mainly applied to people of color or blacks. They just got rid of it a couple months ago. So don't feed me any of that bull crap.
 

CriticalGaming

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It happened in one of the other counties where you could be stopped for anything even if it was just a traffic stop or parking violation.
What does this sentence mean? You can be stopped just for doing a thing that the police would stop you for? Seems obvious.

The point of my long rant, isn't that there are still racist things still lingering from Ye Olde days. But those having constantly and regularly get wiped out. The system is improving and yet people seem to imply that it is the worse it has ever been. And most of the problems that people bring up are not because of a systemic barrier in place.

So I ask again, what specific law or system is currently in place that is actively preventing people from freedoms that otherwise are enjoyed by anyone else?
 

BrawlMan

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What does this sentence mean? You can be stopped just for doing a thing that the police would stop you for? Seems obvious.

The point of my long rant, isn't that there are still racist things still lingering from Ye Olde days. But those having constantly and regularly get wiped out. The system is improving and yet people seem to imply that it is the worse it has ever been. And most of the problems that people bring up are not because of a systemic barrier in place.

So I ask again, what specific law or system is currently in place that is actively preventing people from freedoms that otherwise are enjoyed by anyone else?
You're missing the point. Basically the law was that they can search your vehicle for any reason even if you didn't have a criminal history. Basically once they stop you, even after you got your ticket and everything, they could search your entire vehicle for as long as they want even though you're not supposed to be suspicious of anything. And the problem was is that this didn't happen to a lot of white people, but a lot of black people. And most of those black people didn't have a criminal record, a warrant for their arrest, nor a felony or anything. So the searching was unnecessary.

That is what you keep missing. You keep shifting blame (which amounts to it's the other side that has the problem too) or not getting it even though people are explaining it and breaking down to you as simple as possible. And I know you're not bigot, but you don't get certain things. You just don't. I'm being openly honest with you. We've done this about a thousand times already. Either you get it or you don't. In many certain cases, you don't or you exaggerate the opposition. Start learning and listening.
 

CriticalGaming

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You're missing the point. Basically the law was that they can search your vehicle for any reason even if you didn't have a criminal history. Basically once they stop you, even after you got your ticket and everything, they could search your entire vehicle for as long as they want even though you're not supposed to be suspicious of anything. And the problem was is that this didn't happen to a lot of white people, but a lot of black people. And most of those black people didn't have a criminal record, a warrant for their arrest, nor a felony or anything. So the searching was unnecessary.
Oh see I didn't get the "search" part of that. That's why I didn't understand your statement. Yeah that's fair enough, police have developed bias's overtime and that likely has to due with crime rates of certain peoples. It's racial profiling which is hit-or-miss in morality.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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Oh spare me the infantile whining. We wouldn't have to do this song and dance if you actually vetted your sources instead of looking for shit to confirm what you already wanted to believe.
If I'm right the dude in one of Critical Gaming's videos (the father) is a Lawyer.
So are you pretending the Lawyer is just uninformed about what he's upset about being taught to his daughter?

You could always use sources that aren't obviously lying. Worth a try.
So does Critical need to post the female supposed Teacher on TikTok who claims to be teaching her class of 9 year olds how to dismantle the oppressive systems of the USA?

Or how about sources about that 2+2 = 4 contoversey?

If CRT is about calling white people racist or if it's just being used as yet another in a long line of covers by activists to push their stuff and they're not teaching actual CRT, well at this stage it doesn't change the stupid BS being taught by some
 
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Trunkage

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To remind people what happened. Not to guilt trip Germans as such
I mean, this kind of tells me you haven’t learnt ALL the lesson from that event

So, HOW did the Nazis get all these Jews and other ‘undesirables’? Particularly when the Nazis spent a decade expelling them from their country?
 
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Trunkage

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I've seen some people try to justify that. I don't know whether to laugh or cry. :(
Yeah, I realised my mistake after I posted it. It’s my upbringing. I tend to give Christianity the benefit of the doubt too much
 

Trunkage

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CRT is a strange new animal to me. On one hand I guess it wants something good, but on the other hand it's race-baity and frankly just isn't being put to good use in practice. Especially when it comes to kids. They are teaching kids under 9 this crap and all it does is teach them how to be racist.

Maybe leave CRT to some sort of college course or at LEAST an optional high school elective. I don't like the idea of teaching kids how to be racist before they should even know what racism even is. Especially since CRT on principal is very anti-white, and no kid should be told they're born evil just because.
Just to be clear, it’s 50 years old. It’s not new.


I think all of what you say here is fine, but it misses where the issue with CRT is. Critical race theory reaches very reasonable conclusions when it comes to things like redlining or drug sentencing or other places where different races are treated differently by deliberately enacted policies (not even necessarily deliberately racist, just purposefully enacted). It makes sense that efforts to find faults in society causing racial disparities reach good conclusions when they find aspects of society that artificially create racial disparities. The problem is when CRT, looking to find faults in society, instead finds something innocuous like arithmetic, and suddenly you have actual people suggesting that 2+2 doesn't necessarily equal 4, and teaching it that way is some close-minded combination of internalized whiteness or heteronormativity (that is a controversy that actually happened on twitter). Quite famously, CRT scholars have repeatedly suggested that timeliness is a white value that society uses to disadvantage people of color. I understand policies like demanding straight hair in a dress code are racially disparate, but being on time is not an inherently white thing, and saying so is exactly the type of thing that gets people to say CRT teaches people to be racist.

I don't think anyone of any prominence opposes criticizing policies that treat racial characteristics differently or teaching about racially motivated acts in history, but CRT (or any part of critical theory) does not stop when it stops making sense. It doesn't care if the criticism is appropriate, suddenly the American Revolution was fought to keep slavery and excel spreadsheets are tools of white supremacy. And if you have a line of reasoning that does not always lead to correct conclusions, and you apply that line of reasoning without considering whether it's appropriate to do so, that is a fallacy.
Im pretty sure I’ve provided a few examples in this thread where I think CRT has failed. And, as you stated, it has provided some benefit. This is true of other movements of our time. Feminism and MRAs. Even anti-vaxxers, who I disagree very strongly on most of the science stuff, I can agree on some of the personal freedom stuff. I find mandatory vaccination both necessary and terrifying for vastly different reasons. I can draw a link between Feminism and the residential schools, and eugenics. While I see feminism as a general good…. It’s had some awful moments in history

For me, I get a lot more out of CRT when they tell us the untold stories of history. I recently found out about how slavery worked in New York, it’s banning in 1824 (much later than I thought.) The slavers came up to NY and took random African American in the streets no pretended they were runaway slaves. It wasn’t until a decade later when the courts got involved and demanded proof of ownership before they slavers could take the slaves. Funnily enough, the Southerners stop coming to NY. That’s generally not in the history books for schools near probably should be. Saying the term ‘blacklist’ is racist is not a great use of anyone’s time.

IDK how you get the appropriate value out of CRT. IMO banning all of it is as bad as keeping all of it
 

Dwarvenhobble

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I mean, this kind of tells me you haven’t learnt ALL the lesson from that event

So, HOW did the Nazis get all these Jews and other ‘undesirables’? Particularly when the Nazis spent a decade expelling them from their country?
At a guess rounded up the ones in their country, got some from their allies in the war and then the rest came as they conquered more other countries and people didn't manage to flee?
Just to be clear, it’s 50 years old. It’s not new.
So are other dumb ideas it doesn't mean they've been seeing the light of day until recent times
 

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Im pretty sure I’ve provided a few examples in this thread where I think CRT has failed. And, as you stated, it has provided some benefit. This is true of other movements of our time. Feminism and MRAs. Even anti-vaxxers, who I disagree very strongly on most of the science stuff, I can agree on some of the personal freedom stuff. I find mandatory vaccination both necessary and terrifying for vastly different reasons. I can draw a link between Feminism and the residential schools, and eugenics. While I see feminism as a general good…. It’s had some awful moments in history

For me, I get a lot more out of CRT when they tell us the untold stories of history. I recently found out about how slavery worked in New York, it’s banning in 1824 (much later than I thought.) The slavers came up to NY and took random African American in the streets no pretended they were runaway slaves. It wasn’t until a decade later when the courts got involved and demanded proof of ownership before they slavers could take the slaves. Funnily enough, the Southerners stop coming to NY. That’s generally not in the history books for schools near probably should be. Saying the term ‘blacklist’ is racist is not a great use of anyone’s time.

IDK how you get the appropriate value out of CRT. IMO banning all of it is as bad as keeping all of it
You don't need critical theory to tell those untold stories, and if anything it takes away from them. If you study things looking for the truth, and the truth contains untold stories of race and racism, you can find them just fine. "The ruthless criticism of all that exists" will equally stumble its way into stories of race and racism deserving of criticism, but it drags along with it all of the collateral damage made of things that didn't deserve that criticism. Stories of the Tulsa massacre are only less likely to be heard if the person telling them just finished explaining why "blacklist" is racist.
 

Trunkage

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At a guess rounded up the ones in their country, got some from their allies in the war and then the rest came as they conquered more other countries and people didn't manage to flee?
The rest of Europe, before WW2, treated Jews and other undesirable little different from. To give you an idea of how little difference there was, many Jewish businessmen had many dealing with the Nazi before 1939, because everyone had the same rhetoric.

There were lots of concentration camps in lots of countries because that was standard. Immigrants were banned from running away from conflicts. The countries of Europe would say to their populace that they were criminals and stole people’s jobs. They made sure they couldn’t get citizenship. Does any of this sound familiar to current day situations?

We humans learnt very little from Aushwitz. We are repeating the same rhetoric and mistakes. ‘This person is bad because they’re clearly criminals.’ We have to lock them up or expel them. From Trump’s concentration camps to Australia’s offshore detention or even how Brexit got popular after the Syrian refugee crisis. A crisis that still has 8 million refugees in the three neighbouring countries of Syria, I might add.

So are other dumb ideas it doesn't mean they've been seeing the light of day until recent times
This is not the first time conservatives have attacked CRT. It’s like every conservative catch phrase, like Marxism, Post Modern, Communism or Politically Correct. It goes with every spooky story they create with terms. It’s a fad now and will return again in decade, ready to pretend it something new again

Dave Rubin is pretending than MLK would be ‘anti-CRT’ is some funny shit. If you know anything about CRT’s origins and point out that ‘same but equal’ doesn’t lead to equal, you’d know how this is absurdly funny.

Doesn’t mean I think some of CRT is incredibly dumb. I just don’t fall for the incredibly dumb propaganda against it CRT. Dumb thing is a dumb thing irrelevant of it being against or for CRT
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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Its not?
People can be very emphatically wrong

Or should we take some of the students at my old high school at their word and believe that the school is gearing us up to become fascist pawns by making students wear their school ID? Don't get me wrong, the policy was stupid for several reasons, but it didn't rate nazi death camp comparisons

So I take the idea of "CRT is teaching kids to be racist" with an ancient fortune's worth of salt, doubly so when the proposed solutions from the people posting about it amount to putting video cameras in classrooms to police wrongthink.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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So I ask again, what specific law or system is currently in place that is actively preventing people from freedoms that otherwise are enjoyed by anyone else?
Segregation

See, nobody's specifically and overtly being racist (theoretically). The system in place is enforcing a racist outcome without overt input. (theoretically)
That's what "systemic racism" means.
 
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Trunkage

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You don't need critical theory to tell those untold stories, and if anything it takes away from them. If you study things looking for the truth, and the truth contains untold stories of race and racism, you can find them just fine. "The ruthless criticism of all that exists" will equally stumble its way into stories of race and racism deserving of criticism, but it drags along with it all of the collateral damage made of things that didn't deserve that criticism. Stories of the Tulsa massacre are only less likely to be heard if the person telling them just finished explaining why "blacklist" is racist.
Well, I would say you SHOULDN'T need CRT. But far too often US history has to be wrapped up in US nationalistic sentiment. Story like this don't fit the predetermined story so are excised. It shouldn't require CRT to tell these stories but here we are

Like, I definitely don't mind saying that history coming CRT leads to some wierd jingoism. Because apparently we cant tell our histories without some sort of weird jingoism.

Another problem I have with CRT is that it pretends to be the opposite of this American nationalism when far too many times it the carbon copy.

Having one THE story of the US is just weird to me. You're gonna dilute a billion people over a couple of centuries into one story? That sounds problematic (Australian history seems to be very similar to this, btw)
 
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Hawki

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So Scott is cancelled for his political beliefs. What a joke the cancel culture fools are!
Scott hasn't been cancelled. He retired before a lot of the ruckus really began.

For me, I get a lot more out of CRT when they tell us the untold stories of history. I recently found out about how slavery worked in New York, it’s banning in 1824 (much later than I thought.) The slavers came up to NY and took random African American in the streets no pretended they were runaway slaves. It wasn’t until a decade later when the courts got involved and demanded proof of ownership before they slavers could take the slaves. Funnily enough, the Southerners stop coming to NY. That’s generally not in the history books for schools near probably should be. Saying the term ‘blacklist’ is racist is not a great use of anyone’s time.
Okay, but what does that have to do with CRT? You could easily learn that piece of history through history rather than CRT. I didn't know that specific story, but we covered American slavery in school (I say "we" in the sense that I took modern history as an elective, which covered US history as part of its curiculum), and I'm well aware of the South's dirty dealings. CRT didn't come into it.

Well, I would say you SHOULDN'T need CRT. But far too often US history has to be wrapped up in US nationalistic sentiment. Story like this don't fit the predetermined story so are excised. It shouldn't require CRT to tell these stories but here we are
Except there's Ethnic Studies?

Like, I definitely don't mind saying that history coming CRT leads to some wierd jingoism. Because apparently we cant tell our histories without some sort of weird jingoism.

Another problem I have with CRT is that it pretends to be the opposite of this American nationalism when far too many times it the carbon copy.

Having one THE story of the US is just weird to me. You're gonna dilute a billion people over a couple of centuries into one story? That sounds problematic (Australian history seems to be very similar to this, btw)
I think there's always going to be some level of jingoism in telling history. Every country on Earth is going to want to highlight its good bits and try to whitewash its negative ones. It's a common human reaction. But again, not CRT. I've laid out the theses of CRT, as stated by critical race theorists, and it's not about history, it's about a framework of society. This isn't an argument against CRT being studied per se, but the flipside of it is that you can easily teach history without CRT.

But then, this debate about history is a red herring, because again, that's not CRT's ballpark. I don't doubt that you can learn about history through CRT, but it's incidental. Back to stuff discussed way, WAY back in this thread, I can read Animal Farm as a metaphor for the USSR, or read the X-Men as a metaphor for Civil Rights, that doesn't make these texts ideal vectors for learning history.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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The rest of Europe, before WW2, treated Jews and other undesirable little different from. To give you an idea of how little difference there was, many Jewish businessmen had many dealing with the Nazi before 1939, because everyone had the same rhetoric.

There were lots of concentration camps in lots of countries because that was standard. Immigrants were banned from running away from conflicts. The countries of Europe would say to their populace that they were criminals and stole people’s jobs. They made sure they couldn’t get citizenship. Does any of this sound familiar to current day situations?

We humans learnt very little from Aushwitz. We are repeating the same rhetoric and mistakes. ‘This person is bad because they’re clearly criminals.’ We have to lock them up or expel them. From Trump’s concentration camps to Australia’s offshore detention or even how Brexit got popular after the Syrian refugee crisis. A crisis that still has 8 million refugees in the three neighbouring countries of Syria, I might add.
You mean Obama's camps, or more likely Bush's camps. Also there was a concerted effort somewhat to help Jewish people in World War II once things were escalating. Also there's a difference between people actually seeking asylum, people who are legal migrants and people who are illegal migrants doing so for economic reasons. The latter being a problem as they slow down asylum processing for actual asylum seekers who need it. E.G. I don't think people fleeing war would be really so picky with their food


Also illegal immigration can and does lead to exploitation of said workers. Hell uncontrolled migration actually harms developing countries due to things like "Brain Drain". etc.

It would be a nice idea to have totally free movement but that's not the state of the world and it's not in a state where that would be any good in the end.


This is not the first time conservatives have attacked CRT. It’s like every conservative catch phrase, like Marxism, Post Modern, Communism or Politically Correct. It goes with every spooky story they create with terms. It’s a fad now and will return again in decade, ready to pretend it something new again

Dave Rubin is pretending than MLK would be ‘anti-CRT’ is some funny shit. If you know anything about CRT’s origins and point out that ‘same but equal’ doesn’t lead to equal, you’d know how this is absurdly funny.

Doesn’t mean I think some of CRT is incredibly dumb. I just don’t fall for the incredibly dumb propaganda against it CRT. Dumb thing is a dumb thing irrelevant of it being against or for CRT
I mean MLK would probably be Anti-CRT because it places an emphasis on race from what I've heard. MLK at one point was on about a person being judged on their character not the colour of their skin.