A few thoughts about January 6, 2021

[Seanchaidh]

You simultaneously believe the North entered the war to upend the South's economy and believe Marx convinced Lincoln to abolish slavery mid-war? Do you not see the contradiction?

First of all, I don't believe Marx had anything to do with the reason Lincoln abolished slavery. He just correctly predicted that he would because he's good at predicting big picture things related to political economy.

The south seceded, and the Union fought to preserve the Union. The root cause may have been slavery, but that's not precisely what the North was fighting for. The North was fighting to keep America one nation, which happened to be one nation without slavery, as continuing with split systems of human rights was not tenable. That's not a radical, liberal war. That's right wing, and in some senses conservative. As you say, many liberals would have let the confederacy secede.

The North fought for both reasons and had been rather deliberate about removing the stranglehold that the Southern planters had on the politics of the nation before the war. Lincoln was a liberal and he ended up taking radical action. His opponents viewed him as a dangerous radical before he did so. What should you conclude from that?

 

[tstorm823]

The North fought for both reasons and had been rather deliberate about removing the stranglehold that the Southern planters had on the politics of the nation before the war. Lincoln was a liberal and he ended up taking radical action. His opponents viewed him as a dangerous radical before he did so. What should you conclude from that?

His radical actions were militarily conquering the south and suspending habeas corpus. That's not liberal.

No no, please ramble. You get to explain why the conservative democrats of the day were wrong when they described their radical liberal republican opponents when they overthrew a city government and burned down a black newspaper

You got a source for "described them as radical liberals"?

 

[CM156]

His radical actions were militarily conquering the south and suspending habeas corpus. That's not liberal.

I contest your use of the word "conquering" in this context. It was quelling an illegal and violent rebellion against the central government. Conquering caries with it implications that the military victories are to annex new territory.

I will concede that at least partially his suspension of habeas corpus (at least when he did it in 1861 and not when he did it in 1863 with congressional approval) was somewhat radical.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

You got a source for "described them as radical liberals"?

The article that started this whole tangent. You should read it. It's fun.

 

[tstorm823]

The article that started this whole tangent. You should read it. It's fun.

I did read that. The description of Republicans you're referring to was not written by the conservative Democrats of the day, it was written by a modern and controversial historian who you likely aren't interested in citing, and the author of that article states he "identifies 19th century Republicans as liberals or radicals". Note, the "or". I'll give you that there is an amount of vagueness in that choice of words to infer that those are supposed to be synonyms , but that is an incorrect inference, the liberal and radical groups were opposing factions. Calling those the same would be like saying Biden is conservative and AOC is socialist, so the Democrats today are conservative socialists. I know it's a little semantic thing, but smushing those words together like that makes nonsense.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

I did read that. The description of Republicans you're referring to was not written by the conservative Democrats of the day, it was written by a modern and controversial historian who you likely aren't interested in citing, and the author of that article states he "identifies 19th century Republicans as liberals or radicals". Note, the "or". I'll give you that there is an amount of vagueness in that choice of words to infer that those are supposed to be synonyms , but that is an incorrect inference, the liberal and radical groups were opposing factions. Calling those the same would be like saying Biden is conservative and AOC is socialist, so the Democrats today are conservative socialists. I know it's a little semantic thing, but smushing those words together like that makes nonsense.

Yes, smooshing words together is nonsense.

Tell me more about the political party that was liberal in a conservative way

 

[tstorm823]

Yes, smooshing words together is nonsense.

Tell me more about the political party that was liberal in a conservative way

The United States was founded on a framework of liberalism. Republicans seek to preserve that structure of government. That is conservative of liberal values. This isn't that hard.

 

[Silvanus]

The United States was founded on a framework of liberalism. Republicans seek to preserve that structure of government. That is conservative of liberal values. This isn't that hard.

They don't try to conserve that, though. They attempt to conserve a mythical, imagined past, and to entrench hierarchies far more rigid and unequal than anything the Founding Fathers could have imagined. As soon as a founding principle gets in the way of that (or gets in the way of their medieval social agenda, like separation of Church and State) they're happy to ride roughshod over it.

 

[tstorm823]

They don't try to conserve that, though. They attempt to conserve a mythical, imagined past, and to entrench hierarchies far more rigid and unequal than anything the Founding Fathers could have imagined. As soon as a founding principle gets in the way of that (or gets in the way of their medieval social agenda, like separation of Church and State) they're happy to ride roughshod over it.

You're talking about different Republicans. You're talking about people who aren't liberal in any sense.

 

[BrawlMan]

Keeping us on track here.

US Capitol riot judges step up as the conscience of democracy

A "disgrace to our country." "The tyranny we rejected." "An embarrassment to every American." Judges appointed by both parties are not holding back.

amp.cnn.com

Glad to see someone else with brains and morals actually trying to do their job and not postpone nor help terrorists.

Rally for Jan. 6 rioters prompts Capitol security concern

A planned rally next month on the U.S. Capitol grounds that organizers say is intended to peacefully demand “justice” for hundreds of “political prisoners” charged in the Jan. 6 insurrection is raising law enforcement alarm.

www.seattletimes.com

They sure as hell in peaceful protesters. Banned them from the area immediately. Do not allow them on those grounds. Send there asses packing back home or wherever they came from. Send them away, far away.

 

[AnxietyProne]

One of the NRA's favorite slogans is "an armed society is a polite society". What they mean by that is "you'll be polite to me because I've got a gun".

"...but not when Minorities have guns!" aka The Mulford Act.

 

[Revnak]

I should have known you'd be silly. My mistake.

Please learn a single thing about 19th century political terminology. Lincoln was basically a fucking Jacobin by any contemporary understanding. A capitalist to be sure, and without much of any consideration of the social question, but absolutely a liberal and absolutely not a conservative.

 

[Revnak]

Yes, smooshing words together is nonsense.

Tell me more about the political party that was liberal in a conservative way

There is absolutely such a thing as “liberal in a conservative way.” It doesn’t describe Lincoln at all, but it certainly exists in the present and arguably existed in the US and Britain at the time.

 

[Adam Jensen]

Please learn a single thing about 19th century political terminology. Lincoln was basically a fucking Jacobin by any contemporary understanding. A capitalist to be sure, and without much of any consideration of the social question, but absolutely a liberal and absolutely not a conservative.

The dude literally wanted to get rid of what the conservatives of the time considered a sacred tradition - slavery.

It is remarkable how little has changed since then. Conservatives are still a bunch of whiny racists threatening civil war and terrorizing the rest of the nation because their precious way of life is threatened. Meaning, they can't discriminate against minorities without consequences. In their mind, we should be tolerant of their intolerance because otherwise we're no different. Kindly fuck off you racist cunts.

 

[tstorm823]

Please learn a single thing about 19th century political terminology. Lincoln was basically a fucking Jacobin by any contemporary understanding. A capitalist to be sure, and without much of any consideration of the social question, but absolutely a liberal and absolutely not a conservative.

In some ways, comparing Lincoln to the Jacobins is reasonable. But Lincoln didn't try and replace Christianity with Cults of Reason and behead anyone who disagrees, so I think he dodged most of the issues with Jacobins just fine.

Similarities between Abraham Lincoln and French radicals from nearly a century prior does not do anything to establish whether his positions were conservative. If you can't see the difference between a 19th century American who wanted a strong central Republic and an 18th century Frenchman wanting that while living under a monarchy, I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Trunkage]

In some ways, comparing Lincoln to the Jacobins is reasonable. But Lincoln didn't try and replace Christianity with Cults of Reason and behead anyone who disagrees, so I think he dodged most of the issues with Jacobins just fine.

Similarities between Abraham Lincoln and French radicals from nearly a century prior does not do anything to establish whether his positions were conservative. If you can't see the difference between a 19th century American who wanted a strong central Republic and an 18th century Frenchman wanting that while living under a monarchy, I don't know what to tell you.

My two cents would be him being a liberal. Cared about class politics but only about race when it was politically advantageous. He was very willing to throw slaves and natives under a bus if it got poor white men a farm

 

[BrawlMan]

Some more upbeat news.

2 Seattle cops who were at US Capitol in January are fired

Seattle Police Chief Adrian Diaz has fired the two police officers who authorities say violated the law while attending events in Washington D

www.google.com

Widow of police officer who died by suicide after Capitol riot suing his alleged attacker after he was found by online sleuths

Smith "suffered great pain and mental anguish and mental distress" and "was otherwise damaged" after injuries sustained January 6, the lawsuit says.

www.insider.com

Fact Check: Police officer Michael Fanone did not storm the U.S. Capitol waving a Confederate flag

Claims that images show police officer Michael Fanone carrying a Confederate flag at the U.S. Capitol are false. The photos show Kevin Seefried.

www.google.com

 

[BrawlMan]

Keeping us on track here.

US Capitol riot judges step up as the conscience of democracy

A "disgrace to our country." "The tyranny we rejected." "An embarrassment to every American." Judges appointed by both parties are not holding back.

amp.cnn.com

Glad to see someone else with brains and morals actually trying to do their job and not postpone nor help terrorists.

We need more people like her. Show them no mercy.

​

 

[Silvanus]

You're talking about different Republicans. You're talking about people who aren't liberal in any sense.

I'm talking about the ones who appear to run the party, and its legislative agenda. And, judging by attitude polling, most Republican voters as well.

The British Conservatives are similar in some ways: aiming to "conserve" things we never had, or to restore or "bring back" things we never lost. In short: a confidence trick.

 

[tstorm823]

I'm talking about the ones who appear to run the party, and its legislative agenda. And, judging by attitude polling, most Republican voters as well.

The British Conservatives are similar in some ways: aiming to "conserve" things we never had, or to restore or "bring back" things we never lost. In short: a confidence trick.

We were talking about Abraham Lincoln.