Biden says he does not regret Afghanistan withdrawal as Taliban take over more towns

Gergar12

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Some good news out of all of this.


He has evaluated 70,000 people. Of course, he set expectations low by saying he would do so for 30,000.
 

Godzillarich(aka tf2godz)

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Some good news out of all of this.


He has evaluated 70,000 people. Of course, he set expectations low by saying he would do so for 30,000.
In total, the White House says US efforts have facilitated the evacuation of approximately 70,700 people since August 14, Biden said. Approximately 1,000 Afghans have arrived at Dulles International Airport outside Washington, DC, in the last 24 hours, according to the Pentagon.
we got about six more days lets see how many that can be saved
 

Trunkage

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Oh, I just remembered a piece of history. The guy who the US set up as 'leader' of Afghanistan was the great grandson of the one the British made 'leader' when they were in control.

Because the first time worked so well...

Also, remember in 2003 when the Taliban was willing to surrender to Bush but he rejected it because he wanted to destory them completely

It was right before Bush's Axis of Evil speech. You know the one where he named an ally (Iran) as evil. And Iran stopped killing Talibans for us.

The US never defeated the Taliban. Iran did with the US help. And it was pissed away so Bush could attack Saddam
 

Godzillarich(aka tf2godz)

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The United States says it evacuated 19,000 people from Afghanistan in the past 24 hours as US President Joe Biden’s August 31 withdrawal deadline looms.
This is great news, this means will be able to evacuate everyone waiting at the airport by tomorrow leaving us 5 more days to focus on other stuff. What we will do with those five extra days is another matter
 

Agema

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While I wouldn't agree with this, I might not find it an absurd proposition if global capitalism had only ever had an effect on white people in the imperial core and that was all we were allowed to consider about it-- and this is very much how capitalism tends to be considered in its effects by media in imperialist countries-- but that's not the world we live in. So instead I must regard your statement as ill-considered in the extreme. Everything wrong with capitalism is compartmentalized as some particular social problem or another while any blemish on a socialist country is treated as fundamental to Marxism. We'll decry "gulags!" while the United States has by far the largest proportion of prisoners in the world. We'll snark about "bread lines" while our people starve. We'll laugh about thousands of identical soviet apartments while our people live on streets and (if lucky!) in tents. But more important than that is that capitalism is fundamentally and unavoidably about the exploitation of its working class and functions by keeping the mass of people precarious and (rightfully) terrorized of falling to a lower status and thereby having to accept more brutal exploitation, losing one's home, or being disposed of when a medical treatment is too expensive or a cop decides to perform an impromptu execution.
The bit about compartmentalising in capitalism and socialist failures as inherent to Marxism sounds to me like some sort of digressive waffle. It's not that capitalism is inherently ace and socialism inherently shit or vice versa, it's just the reality out there was that the Eastern Bloc and China fucking sucked. And irrespective of whether this is some sort of inherent problem of socialism or not, they were unquestionably horrible places at a deep institutional level, and the idea that socialism might be doable in some other less patently abusive fashion in no way excuses the barbarity and harm those places inflicted on their own people (and others).

Do you want to tell me that the working classes weren't exploited in the USSR and China? Do you really think the wealth of the nation was truly flowing to the workers, or do you think it was being wasted in inefficiency or sucked up and squandered by an elite for other purposes - just in this case, a governmental elite rather a capitalist one? DO you think the workers really had any significant say in their lives, and government policy?

It is surely a form of exploitation to view one's people as a series of replaceable cogs in a giant machine, where the only thing that matters is the machine, and if you grind up millions of your own people, that's all fine. Capitalism does this, but so did the Communist nations. They didn't love and respect any individual in their country as persons, they're all just fodder for the Great Plan. That's a lot of why they were convulsed by events where millions died - because it was small loss in the name of whatever ambitions socialist dictators had. If you think it was not exploitation, you are fooling yourself. Likewise if you think they did not live in fear and coercion - albeit via insidious security services, corruption, shitty justice systems, daring to speak what was ideologically impure and so on rather than economic insecurity - you are fooling yourself.
 

Seanchaidh

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The bit about compartmentalising in capitalism and socialist failures as inherent to Marxism sounds to me like some sort of digressive waffle. It's not that capitalism is inherently ace and socialism inherently shit or vice versa, it's just the reality out there was that the Eastern Bloc and China fucking sucked. And irrespective of whether this is some sort of inherent problem of socialism or not, they were unquestionably horrible places at a deep institutional level, and the idea that socialism might be doable in some other less patently abusive fashion in no way excuses the barbarity and harm those places inflicted on their own people (and others).

Do you want to tell me that the working classes weren't exploited in the USSR and China? Do you really think the wealth of the nation was truly flowing to the workers, or do you think it was being wasted in inefficiency or sucked up and squandered by an elite for other purposes - just in this case, a governmental elite rather a capitalist one? DO you think the workers really had any significant say in their lives, and government policy?
Wealth largely flowed to military purposes because actual and threatened capitalist aggression made that necessary. You're judging people for the predictable results of having to contend with constant military threat, espionage, and sabotage by the most powerful empires in human history, empires which project hostility outward in large part because they fear what their own people would do with successful counterexamples to "there is no alternative"- indeed, successfully undermining and overthrowing the Soviet Union has resulted in a steady decline of the meager social democratic programs the UK and US had. It is utterly natural for those who constantly deal with that aggression to become pathologically paranoid. No matter how ethical or democratic any of those places wanted to be, they still existed in the context of global capitalism. Call that a lame excuse if you want, but you're essentially blaming organisms immersed in water for acting like fish. Whether they would necessarily have drowned had they not is beside the point.

It is surely a form of exploitation to view one's people as a series of replaceable cogs in a giant machine, where the only thing that matters is the machine, and if you grind up millions of your own people, that's all fine. Capitalism does this, but so did the Communist nations. They didn't love and respect any individual in their country as persons, they're all just fodder for the Great Plan. That's a lot of why they were convulsed by events where millions died - because it was small loss in the name of whatever ambitions socialist dictators had. If you think it was not exploitation, you are fooling yourself. Likewise if you think they did not live in fear and coercion - albeit via insidious security services, corruption, shitty justice systems, daring to speak what was ideologically impure and so on rather than economic insecurity - you are fooling yourself.
If we're talking about people being fodder for a great plan, I much prefer China ending poverty for hundreds of millions of people to sending Bezos to the upper atmosphere for an afternoon so that he can advocate for making The Expanse's Belter/Earther class divide a non-fiction.

The bit about compartmentalising in capitalism and socialist failures as inherent to Marxism sounds to me like some sort of digressive waffle
It is my best guess as to why you are making the mistake that you are making with respect to judging the impact and morality of the continued existence of capitalism vs. the impact and morality of the project of building socialism. Do you believe that you've escaped the influence of the most sophisticated propaganda apparatus that has ever existed in human history? What I described is a large part of why that propaganda works: I've been describing the abuse of the fundamental attribution error applied internationally. We always have an excuse. Something else to blame. They on the other hand, are the sum total of each adverse event, and entirely responsible for all of them. And that is liberal 'nuance' in a nutshell.
 

tstorm823

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Do you believe that you've escaped the influence of the most sophisticated propaganda apparatus that has ever existed in human history?
Even if you were correct about what is western propaganda, being willfully contrarian to propaganda about what is fact is not a good epistemological standard. The majority of things that most effectively sway public opinion are going to have at least some truth to them, so choosing to believe the opposite is just you choosing to be wrong.

OT: I like Biden standing by the decision to withdraw, but I'm not yet sure if it still counts as standing by a decision if you cover your eyes and pretend there aren't downsides to the decision. It's tougher to respect a hard decision made by someone pretending it's easy.
 

Seanchaidh

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Even if you were correct about what is western propaganda, being willfully contrarian to propaganda about what is fact is not a good epistemological standard.
That's cool, but I didn't actually argue with any of Agema's factual claims-- my argument has focused exclusively on context, how to assess fault, and the cognitive biases which lead us to think of a category "American foreign policy" or "The Hurricane Katrina response" or "the situation in Puerto Rico" as distinct from capitalism without extending the same courtesy to any socialist country.

The majority of things that most effectively sway public opinion are going to have at least some truth to them
Of course! And how that can quickly turn into the grand whole drawing the opposite of truthful conclusions should be obvious.
 

Silvanus

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it's impossible to employ identical arguments because the conditions were different. Sometimes a string of words makes sense in one context but not another. The idea that someone could make an asinine argument for the propriety of the US invasion of Afghanistan using roughly the same words that doesn't make any sense because the relations between the entities involved aren't at all similar doesn't mean anything. "Ah, but what if I said the same thing in a different context? Wouldn't that be not at all persuasive?" is not the strong argument you apparently think it is.

Your arguments have so far depended on assuming that the US occupation and puppet government were like the Soviet intervention and its meddling in the composition of Afghan leadership. Rather than making a case for the truth of that assumption, you've simply expressed incredulity and then made inane claims about the logical consistency of my views.
Not "roughly the same words"-- the same rationale. You've invoked the leaders being repressive as a reason to invade (check...), you've used countering insurgency as a justification for a decade of occupation (check...), you've implied that the presence of an allied Afghan gov (that they installed) indicates that the government was wholly independent (check...), you've even appealed to providing stability, which was the refrain of the US interventionists for years (mega check). It's not "roughly the same words", it's a bloody rerun.

If these justifications were faulty before, they're faulty now. They don't magically hold more water depending on who's doing it.

Moreso that the conduct of the Red Army is quite separate to whether employing the Soviet military is "imperialism"; when the US military shoots random people, it's usually treated as a particular issue with particular soldiers rather than an indictment of their mission. The United States gets to blame its problems on a Lynndie England; the Soviets are treated as a monolithic Slavic horde.
In both cases, I'm squarely pointing the finger at military leadership (and the government) for failing or refusing to hold any kind of standard of behaviour. Exactly as you do with the grotesque US war crimes perpetrated elsewhere. When war crimes are this endemic, this common, the problem cannot be fobbed off on individual soldiers; there's something sick and permissive in policy & culture.

I'm applying the same goddamn standard. You're not. You'll rightly bring up horrifying excesses perpetrated by US personnel overseas, and then throw up these excuses about how the gov and leadership can't be blamed when it's the USSR.
 

Silvanus

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The United States didn't go into Afghanistan at the request of the Taliban to help defend it from various warlords and then elevate another faction within the Taliban; they invaded the Taliban and set up an entirely unrelated puppet government of their own. A puppet government whose officials got rich by embezzling US aid while the US claimed that everything was going great up until they left and it precipitously collapsed.
Once again noting the convenient characterisation of assassination, overthrow & purging as "elevating another faction".

Ah, instead we have the USSR installing a puppet government from sympathetic members of the party, and it was the Soviet military that did the looting and pillaging. And instead of the government "precipitously collapsing" after they left, they experienced a protracted civil war (I thought they came to bring stability...?) before it then... precipitously collapsed anyway. Much better! These differences make invasion and occupation much more palatable for the citizenry, I'm sure.

You've just blithely glided over the fact that the Soviets opposed the approach taken by Karmal (and Taraki and Amin before him). But they didn't go on to remove Karmal from power after assassinating Amin, so I guess it's all on them. :rolleyes:
I blithely glided over that because it's completely immaterial guff, to be perfectly honest. Oh, they objected to some stuff their installed pro-Soviet puppet did? They didn't just kill him too? Give them a gold medal for a humane occupation, I suppose, we'll just forget all the other political repression.
 
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tstorm823

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That's cool, but I didn't actually argue with any of Agema's factual claims-- my argument has focused exclusively on context, how to assess fault, and the cognitive biases which lead us to think of a category "American foreign policy" or "The Hurricane Katrina response" or "the situation in Puerto Rico" as distinct from capitalism without extending the same courtesy to any socialist country.
That seems immaterial to you defending heinous totalitarian regimes that happen to be socialist.
 

Satinavian

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That's cool, but I didn't actually argue with any of Agema's factual claims-- my argument has focused exclusively on context, how to assess fault, and the cognitive biases which lead us to think of a category "American foreign policy" or "The Hurricane Katrina response" or "the situation in Puerto Rico" as distinct from capitalism without extending the same courtesy to any socialist country.
If you actually paid some attention, you might have noticed that the majority of people you are argueing with are not Americans. They also don't get their news from the US media and tend to have a rather negative view of many aspects of US politics and actions.
Do you believe that you've escaped the influence of the most sophisticated propaganda apparatus that has ever existed in human history
That is rubbish. At least those of us who have lived under Soviet influence can assure you that the Eastern block had a far more sophisticated and powerful propaganda apparatus. It is not even remotely a competition. While the propaganda itself was not necessarily any more convincing, the ability to eliminate dissenting voices and hiding unpleasant truths made a lot of difference.
 

Seanchaidh

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If you actually paid some attention, you might have noticed that the majority of people you are argueing with are not Americans. They also don't get their news from the US media and tend to have a rather negative view of many aspects of US politics and actions.
Yeah, I'm sure other capitalist media is much better.

At least those of us who have lived under Soviet influence can assure you that the Eastern block had a far more sophisticated and powerful propaganda apparatus.
Obviousness is not the same thing as sophistication or power.

Ah, instead we have the USSR installing a puppet government from sympathetic members of the party, and it was the Soviet military that did the looting and pillaging. And instead of the government "precipitously collapsing" after they left, they experienced a protracted civil war (I thought they came to bring stability...?) before it then... precipitously collapsed anyway. Much better! These differences make invasion and occupation much more palatable for the citizenry, I'm sure.
So you've given up on arguing about whether the Soviet Union was being imperialist-- more imperialist than the United States which was arming the rebels that precipitated Soviet involvement in the first place-- and are now merely asserting that their actions in Afghanistan were generically bad because a military solution worked more or less as you might expect a military solution to a military problem (that was created or at the very least inflamed by the United States) to work (or not work) and some people who were purging and assassinating got purged and assassinated.

Cool, but you're transparently moving the goal posts.

That seems immaterial to you defending heinous totalitarian regimes that happen to be socialist.
You defend the United States.
 

Specter Von Baren

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I would not find it surprising if Biden did this since he is afraid of the 2022 primaries, and this being another Syrian refugees situation. It proves that pro-immigrant advocates have a lot of ground to cover in key swing states instead they focus on the cities on the coast, and colleges where people already agree with them instead of going into suburbs.
¿?¿?¿?¿? Swing states? WTF do swing states have to do with anything if neither party is pro-imigration?
 

Seanchaidh

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¿?¿?¿?¿? Swing states? WTF do swing states have to do with anything if neither party is pro-imigration?
If swing states are pro-immigration, then a party can make a gain in a swing state by running a candidate that is pro-immigration.
 

Specter Von Baren

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If swing states are pro-immigration, then a party can make a gain in a swing state by running a candidate that is pro-immigration.
But if a deal was made so that Afghans can't leave the country in exchange for foreigners being allowed to then it doesn't matter whether a swing state would welcome immigrants since they won't be coming anyway. If we're talking about Mexican immigrants then the only swing state that matters is Florida (or at least, last I checked they're considered one) since they're an entry point from Mexico. When it comes to immigration these are the immigrants we're talking about usually.