They are trying to cancel Dave Chappell

[Dreiko]

Maybe... if this wasn't a follow up to him saying he agrees with J.K. Rowling on the matter. Unless that was ironic too. Chappelle doesn't seem to be on twitter being an asshole regarding trans issues and writing a book that involves a killer dressing up as a woman to lure in victims, like Rowling. And maybe he isn't even aware of her having done this, but many people in the trans community certainly are. So him saying he argees with her on trans issues it's not surprising this rubs a lot of people within that community the wrong way. Especially after apparently having made disparaging comments about trans people in previous specials already.

My take of it was that it wasn't ironic, but it also wasn't him agreeing with the understanding trans people have of terfs over in the UK and being ok with it despite that either, or even being aware of such a thing for that matter. It sounded like a more surface level thing where he simply heard of terfs one day, thought the way they represented themselves made sense, and stopped inquiring about it any further, so he just has a very surface level understanding of it but out of what he does understand he sees no problems.

 

[Agema]

During the Daphne story he also deliberately calls himself transphobic. It is obvious to me that he is mocking the mobs calling him these terms. He does it to show it really has no meaning or basis in reality to him. He hangs with Daphne, has her open a show for him and genuinely wants to help her get a foothold as a comic and as a friend, but he is "transphobic" so...

Helping a transperson and being transphobic are not incompatible.

It is well recognised in psychology that people can exceptions for individuals to the rules they hold for the group. Such as "Black people are stupid and uncivilised - although I've got a black friend Cyril, who's nothing like that." Or the cliche "blah blah blah... present compant excepted" when they know they've made a prejudicial statement, but seek to discount someone in earshot who it relates to in the hope that person is not personally offended. Or indeed the even more tiresome cliche of "I'm not racist, I've got a black friend", which as per the above means less than they might suppose.

What Dave Chappelle is perhaps more telling us is that he has compassion for individuals that transcends, or exists despite, his opposition to certain elements of trans rights.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I think of lot of these specials come from Dave hating social media entirely. He blames social media for Daphne's desth, and he constantly bashes twitter people specifically. I dont think he looks at twitter much but does see news of when shit happens from twitter because a lot of news programs bring up twitter posts.

I'm not familiar with his specials, but from my understanding he was already having a go at trans people before this person Daphne's death. I remember some people talking right after his previous special came out and going 'I guess that was funny, but yikes, some of things he was saying'. So he apparently already had a history with this.

My take of it was that it wasn't ironic, but it also wasn't him agreeing with the understanding trans people have of terfs over in the UK and being ok with it despite that either, or even being aware of such a thing for that matter. It sounded like a more surface level thing where he simply heard of terfs one day, thought the way they represented themselves made sense, and stopped inquiring about it any further, so he just has a very surface level understanding of it but out of what he does understand he sees no problems.

I'd figure that's about how it is too. A lot of transphobia doesn't seem to come from a place of active hate and fear, like with Rowling, but from an unwillingness to look into things further and taking ignorant mainstream representations at face value. But this is just as much an issue and Chappelle really isn't helping things by saying shit like this to an audience of millions.

Who knows, maybe unironically saying things like 'I agree with J.K. Rowling' and 'I'm team TERF' in context actually works to show one being an ally to the trans community, but somehow I feel it'd work a whole lot better without these statements.

 

[Buyetyen]

And how are you the arbitor of "good" comedy?

Didn't say I was. I'm referencing people much funnier than me like Del Close, the guy who mentored Bill Murray, Harold Ramis, Key & Peele, and a shitload of other great comedians.

Pay attention to what he says and show me the bigotry. Show me the unironic transphobia. Tell me how this story is in any way dangerous. School me.

The story is not the sum total of the content about trans people in this special and you know that. Why are you pretending otherwise?

 

[Silvanus]

During the Daphne story he also deliberately calls himself transphobic. It is obvious to me that he is mocking the mobs calling him these terms. He does it to show it really has no meaning or basis in reality to him. He hangs with Daphne, has her open a show for him and genuinely wants to help her get a foothold as a comic and as a friend, but he is "transphobic" so...

And someone rolled their eyes earlier making the comment "im not racist because i have black friends" and that isnt what i think Dave is doing here. He is embracing the irony of people calling him these things because to him it doesnt make any sense.

That irony certainly isn't clear to the audience, then, including his intended target. Because yeah, the fact he has a trans friend means nothing regarding whether or not he's prejudiced.

I don't get a sense of irony, as if it's sooooo unbelievable that he's prejudiced. It's much likelier from his overall tone and seeming preoccupation with the topic that... he's just prejudiced.

 

[Silvanus]

Not that I've seen the material (I have not much enjoyed what little I've seen of Dave Chappelle so have no inclination to watch), that could represent Chappelle accepting the designation he's been given ironically. The context being that trans activists can call people "TERF" for disagreeing with them irrespective of whether they are radical feminists (or, in some cases, perhaps even trans exclusionary).

I could believe this, if it wasn't for the wider pattern. This is the third special in a short time frame spending quite a lot of time recounting derogatory stories, stereotypes & general insults about trans people.

 

[Piscian]

Dave isn't homophobic or transphobic because he's just joking and when hes not funny we just don't get it because he's mocking transphobes and homophobic types by emulating jokes they would laugh at, except when he's making a point about why the lgbtq community is bad and why they're gross, in joke form, and it's fine because he knows a trans person, carry the 2, and his racist and anti-Semitism jokes are ok because that's officially still funny.

 

[CriticalGaming]

What Dave Chappelle is perhaps more telling us is that he has compassion for individuals that transcends, or exists despite, his opposition to certain elements of trans rights.

Yeah I guess that is certainly possible. However he is a comedian and this might be a way to deal with any potential prejudices he might have through humor. Like, "I used to be transphobic, but then I met this cool b**** Daphne and she started to change my entire viewpoint. Here is some funny shit she and I did."

The same way KKK-members can realize they are assholes and move away from that way of thinking. People can change and people can reflect on how they've changed. Comedian's will usually do this with jokes, and whenever you joke about "sensitive" material it's ultimately going to offend some folks.

That irony certainly isn't clear to the audience, then, including his intended target. Because yeah, the fact he has a trans friend means nothing regarding whether or not he's prejudiced.

Including the intended target? Who? Daphne? She's gone. And her family has issued statements in the wake of this outrage in support of Dave. So how can your statement even be close to being true? You are projecting offense on people who aren't offended.

 

[Buyetyen]

You are projecting offense on people who aren't offended.

So nobody has actually taken offense to this?

 

[Xprimentyl]

Here's the thing (and feel free to disagree,) you know what you're getting with Dave Chappelle. He's never been shy about rubbing society's flaws in its face. He's a comedian; his job and talent is finding humor in everyday life which includes uncomfortable and sensitive subjects, and he finds a way to make important issues humorous and entertaining. That's a bit different from a random guy in a bar gay-bashing or hate-speaking for no other reason than to bash and hate.

I'm not saying you have to like him or his comedy, but as he himself stated in his stand-up, no one has a problem when he makes fun of black people. In fact, it's a part of the reason he walked away from the enormous success of The Chappelle Show; the execs counting the money he was raking in didn't appreciate the irony of his targeting black tropes; they just wanted "more of his making fun of black people; it's really selling!"

I understand it's one thing to laugh at yourself, but when others are laughing at you WITH you, do they not open themselves up for equal satirization?

Comedian Josh Blue has cerebral palsy. He makes a lot of jokes at his own expense. Where's the outrage that he's "punching down" on disabled people and why are normally-abled people allowed to laugh?

 

[Buyetyen]

Here's the thing (and feel free to disagree,) you know what you're getting with Dave Chappelle. He's never been shy about rubbing society's flaws in its face. He's a comedian; his job and talent is finding humor in everyday life which includes uncomfortable and sensitive subjects, and he finds a way to make important issues humorous and entertaining. That's a bit different from a random guy in a bar gay-bashing or hate-speaking for no other reason than to bash and hate.

I'm not saying you have to like him or his comedy, but as he himself stated in his stand-up, no one has a problem when he makes fun of black people. In fact, it's a part of the reason he walked away from the enormous success of The Chappelle Show; the execs counting the money he was raking in didn't appreciate the irony of his targeting black tropes; they just wanted "more of his making fun of black people; it's really selling!"

I understand it's one thing to laugh at yourself, but when others are laughing at you WITH you, do they not open themselves up for equal satirization?

Comedian Josh Blue has cerebral palsy. He makes a lot of jokes at his own expense. Where's the outrage that he's "punching down" on disabled people and why are normally-abled people allowed to laugh?

So what were Dave's actual punchlines? What were the jokes that make this okay instead of just a bigoted rant? I've asked this question before and got no answer and I think I know why.

 

[Xprimentyl]

So what were Dave's actual punchlines? What were the jokes that make this okay instead of just a bigoted rant? I've asked this question before and got no answer and I think I know why.

I can't quote the exact jokes; watch the special if you're interested, but they're tantamount to highlighting the hypocrisy and double standards of today. His job is to make light of the heavy. He makes fun of EVERYBODY, and since the LGBTQ+ community wants to be considered a part of "everybody" (as they should,) they're fair game for satirization.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Netflix just fired another employee for disclosing how much they paid Chappelle for his last stand-up: $24.1 million. I'll offend anyone for that kind of money.

 

[Buyetyen]

I can't quote the exact jokes; watch the special if you're interested, but they're tantamount to highlighting the hypocrisy and double standards of today. His job is to make light of the heavy. He makes fun of EVERYBODY, and since the LGBTQ+ community wants to be considered a part of "everybody" (as they should,) they're fair game for satirization.

I watched the relevant bits. There weren't any punchlines. Dave erased black queerness to make it a white people thing so he could feel like he was punching up. Considering his past body of work, it's not unfair to expect better from him. This is was not including trans people. It was othering them.

Let's be clear: I was a huge fan of Chappelle's Show back in the day and I've enjoyed his stand-up in the past. This was just disappointing.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I can't quote the exact jokes; watch the special if you're interested, but they're tantamount to highlighting the hypocrisy and double standards of today. His job is to make light of the heavy. He makes fun of EVERYBODY, and since the LGBTQ+ community wants to be considered a part of "everybody" (as they should,) they're fair game for satirization.

I'm sure it's annoying I bring this up again, but is saying you agree with J.K. Rowling and that you're team TERF (without a hint of irony or mirth) making fun or satire, or is it simply saying you agree with J.K. Rowling and that you're team TERF? I mean, his joke about trans genitalia was stupid, but that atleast was framed as a joke. The whole thing about Rowling and TERFs wasn't.

The LGBTQ+ community has been the target of famous comedians (who aren't part of that community) even when they weren't considered part of 'everybody'. It's not a new phenomenon that this community is targeted for laughs, typically at their expense, it's only recently that this community has really spoken up about it and that society is at a place where it genuinely wants to listen for a bit.

Chappelle is within his right to make fun of whoever he wants, but those people he targets are equally within their right to say 'you are full of shit'. I'm sure Chappelle has some good points to make, but if it needs come with some weird transphobic shit then he's really not good at making those points. And he certainly shouldn't be surprised when a lot of people in the trans community don't want to listen to what he has to say.

 

[Cheetodust]

Helping a transperson and being transphobic are not incompatible.

It is well recognised in psychology that people can exceptions for individuals to the rules they hold for the group. Such as "Black people are stupid and uncivilised - although I've got a black friend Cyril, who's nothing like that." Or the cliche "blah blah blah... present compant excepted" when they know they've made a prejudicial statement, but seek to discount someone in earshot who it relates to in the hope that person is not personally offended. Or indeed the even more tiresome cliche of "I'm not racist, I've got a black friend", which as per the above means less than they might suppose.

What Dave Chappelle is perhaps more telling us is that he has compassion for individuals that transcends, or exists despite, his opposition to certain elements of trans rights.

Lovecraft's wife was Jewish, he was also a massive anti-semite.

 

[Cheetodust]

Indeed. But what gives people the right to determine what those words do for everyone else. Being offended is such a personal thing, and a lot of times people think that of they are offended then so should everyone else. And when other people are fine with the thing that offends you, it somehow makes it even more offensive as if the world dares not to share in your sensitivity.

There are bad jokes and there are good jokes but there are no jokes that people will universally agree sit on either side of that line. A joke that has people in stitches can also have people in tears, so in that situation who is in the right?

The answer is of course, there isn't a right. One simply must move past it and understand that a particular comedian isnt for them, while at the same time understand that the people who enjoyed jokes that upset you arent automatically bad people.

Just like violence in video games doesnt cause real world violence. Jokes dont cause racism, sexism, or bigotry.

My point was that Dave Chappelle himself is aware of the harm jokes can have. You're right, jokes don't cause bigotry. But they can certainly reinforce it and people always use comedy to reinforce their world views. Source, literally everytime someone has just linked that Steve Hughes bit as short hand for arguing against being offended. I mean who the fuck knows anything else by Steve Hughes? But that one bit has become a rallying point for that ideological point. The amount of people who get their worldview or have it reinforced by South Park. Hell you look at a lot of political comedians, even ones I like, like Bill Hicks, compare the amount of cheering they get compared to the amount of laughs. Just going out on stage and reinforcing a worldview that people already believe is a genre of comedy all of it's own.


I was a stand up for years. I quit about 5 years ago because literally all anyone was doing was the same Brexit bits and the same Trump bits (in fucking Ireland) and I just didn't want to spend time in comedy clubs anymore. Because "Here's an ideology you believe in" is basically all "political" comedy amounts to. It's part of the echo chamber effect.

If comedy can be a force for good it can be a force for bad and Dave Chappelle actually agrees with me, but only when the bad is directed at him and his, when he's the one hitting out at others it's totally fine to him. He's a hypocrite.

 

[Xprimentyl]

I watched the relevant bits. There weren't any punchlines. Dave erased black queerness to make it a white people thing so he could feel like he was punching up. Considering his past body of work, it's not unfair to expect better from him. This is was not including trans people. It was othering them.

Let's be clear: I was a huge fan of Chappelle's Show back in the day and I've enjoyed his stand-up in the past. This was just disappointing.

"The relevant bits" leaves a lot to the imagination as relevance is subjective, i.e.: I could pluck what I believe to be the "relevant bits" from Dr. Martin Luther King's "I have a dream" speech and make him out to be a Nazi sympathizer.

I agree this latest was not his strongest stand-up special, but I think it was more a statement than failed attempt at humor. He was playing off of the sensitivities of the day to prove how hypersensitive we've become; it was intentional. If you've watched any of his specials or The Chappelle Show, you know no one is off limits; "if you can laugh at me, I can laugh at you" is his spiritual mantra. Nothing he said was out of hate; it's all absurdist humor that points at the fact that we (as in humans collectively) each have something we can find humor in, be it dark, light or neutral. It's what he does. It's comedy. You can only do so many innocuous jokes about airplane food before comedy becomes something we just can't do anymore because 99.9% of the time, jokes need a butt; when jokes can't have a butt, what we can laugh about (not to be confused with "laugh AT,") comes down to very little. And while we're on the subject, has anyone thought about the feelings of those poor people who prepare that airline food???

Chappelle is a "dare me" comedian; you tell him what he can't say, and he'll bust your eardrums yelling it in your face. Again, you don't have to like him, and I understand how many don't, but it's a craft he's honed for those that can appreciate it for what it is, and this is coming from a black guy who thought it was hilarious when he joked about black people spending long-overdue reparation money on a truckload of menthol cigarettes.

Chappelle is within his right to make fun of whoever he wants, but those people he targets are equally within their right to say 'you are full of shit'. I'm sure Chappelle has some good points to make, but if it needs come with some weird transphobic shit then he's really not good at making those points. And he certainly shouldn't be surprised when a lot of people in the trans community don't want to listen to what he has to say.

And there's his point. He jokes about black tropes, and it's comedy; he jokes about trans tropes, and it's transphobic. He's NOT surprised. He KNEW how people would react: the way they didn't when he disparaged people of color for their amusement. I can't say how he feel's personally; I'm not him. But I CAN say, as a comedian, he punches in ALL directions; where anyone wants to draw the line he's not allowed to cross is subjective and up to the individual, but labelling him as objectively transphobic (that I know he is NOT) because he makes jokes relevant to the zeitgeist of modern LGBTQ+ culture is only evidence to the hypersensitivity he's intentionally pointing out. I wonder how many trans people laughed at his jokes about black people, but got offended when the jokes were about themselves. That's his point: everyone wants to laugh at others, but can't laugh at themselves even when Chappelle has shown them how both can be achieved.

 

[Buyetyen]

"The relevant bits" leaves a lot to the imagination as relevance is subjective, i.e.: I could pluck what I believe to be the "relevant bits" from Dr. Martin Luther King's "I have a dream" speech and make him out to be a Nazi sympathizer.

Show me. I dare you.

He was playing off of the sensitivities of the day to prove how hypersensitive we've become; it was intentional.

I got a completely different message. And complaining about how everyone is too sensitive is as old as Socrates. It's nothing fresh, original, or even all that creative.

If you've watched any of his specials or The Chappelle Show, you know no one is off limits; "if you can laugh at me, I can laugh at you" is his spiritual mantra. Nothing he said was out of hate; it's all absurdist humor that points at the fact that we (as in humans collectively) each have something we can find humor in, be it dark, light or neutral. It's what he does.

And he failed at it in this case. Those were rants, not jokes.

It's comedy. You can only do so many innocuous jokes about airplane food before comedy becomes something we just can't do anymore because 99.9% of the time, jokes need a butt; when jokes can't have a butt, what we can laugh about (not to be confused with "laugh AT,") comes down to very little. And while we're on the subject, has anyone thought about the feelings of those poor people who prepare that airline food???

Truth in comedy is far more important than having a target to shit on. Jerry Seinfeld's airline food joke has become a cliche, but at the time it was a witty bit of observational comedy.

The best jokes highlight a truth about society and culture. Take for example George Carlin's bit on the differences between football and baseball. There is no real butt of the joke, it's just an amusing bit explaining how the 2 sports are radically different from each other and the cultural niche they fill.

 

[Buyetyen]

Chappelle is a "dare me" comedian; you tell him what he can't say, and he'll bust your eardrums yelling it in your face. Again, you don't have to like him, and I understand how many don't, but it's a craft he's honed for those that can appreciate it for what it is, and this is coming from a black guy who thought it was hilarious when he joked about black people spending long-overdue reparation money on a truckload of menthol cigarettes.

I didn't say he can't make gay jokes. Just that the ones he made weren't funny or even really jokes. Dave is experienced enough as a comedian to know better and I'm absolutely going to hold him to that standard.

(that I know he is NOT)

You say that with so degree of confidence. I question whether you can back it up.

That's his point: everyone wants to laugh at others, but can't laugh at themselves even when Chappelle has shown them how both can be achieved.

The impression I got was that his whole point was trans people have ironic genitalia. And that was really fucking cringe.