Funny Events of the "Woke" world

[Dreiko]

Maybe you're in the wrong thread. We're discussing whether a few people on Twitter allegedly claiming we should teach African bush magic as science are ever going to be anything but a few weirdos who are going to be roundly ignored, which you inappropriately equate with sending people rape threats.

And when this is pointed out you, you move the goalposts to "cancelling", which is just a feeble attempt to pretend you haven't made a thoroughly stupid comparison.

Oh I know what you mean, that wasn't on twitter, that was some real life african college setting discussion about "how do you explain that voodoo shamans can call down lightning" or something along those lines, some girl was legit arguing that in all seriousness as a way of showing that science (western science in her words) is wrong. Not something limited on twitter.


But yeah I did miss the context of the earlier bit in my above response, sorry bout that.

 

[Hawki]

Oh I know what you mean, that wasn't on twitter, that was some real life african college setting discussion about "how do you explain that voodoo shamans can call down lightning" or something along those lines, some girl was legit arguing that in all seriousness. Not something limited on twitter.

And Dreiko's right, it was reported on in The Conversation (an academic journal), as part of the larger "science must fall/decolonize science" movement.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Oh I know what you mean, that wasn't on twitter, that was some real life african college setting discussion about "how do you explain that voodoo shamans can call down lightning" or something along those lines, some girl was legit arguing that in all seriousness. Not something limited on twitter.


But yeah I did miss the context of the earlier bit in my above response, sorry bout that.

And Christians in American colleges routinely decide that Anthropology 101 is the perfect place to try and disprove Darwinian evolution and prove that the earth is 3000 years old, what's your point?

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

And Dreiko's right, it was reported on in The Conversation (an academic journal), as part of the larger "science must fall/decolonize science" movement.

So we're reporting a thought experiment regarding parallel development in science as an authentic argument for black magic? Seems like a bullshit interpretation to me.

Don't get me wrong: you can make an argument that they're reinventing the wheel with regards to math or science, but as long as western science is accurate they're going to reach the same conclusions. They're just disposing of foreign assumptions and rerunning the ideas themselves.

Then again, I know enough about the speed running community to know that rerunning the fundamentals with a fresh set of eyes can lead to some very interesting discoveries

 

[Dreiko]

And Christians in American colleges routinely decide that Anthropology 101 is the perfect place to try and disprove Darwinian evolution and prove that the earth is 3000 years old, what's your point?

Yes that also is nonsense, should be decried and ridiculed equally.

My point was that it wasn't limited to 100 people on twitter.



Also in a broader sense, people are so busy to negate things like racism or colonialism that they're tossing out the baby with the bath water. You shouldn't limit the sort of info you derive from skeletons, and you shouldn't entertain that magic shamans can shoot lightning with their spells.


If you wanna shoot lightning, it's called a taser, western science has provided us with it, you don't need magic to control electricity, and if a shaman has an alternative hypothesis on the way electricity functions and is accurate the western science will embrace his voodoo ways, all he has to do is to present it, so what are we doing here?

 

[Hawki]

So we're reporting a thought experiment regarding parallel development in science as an authentic argument for black magic? Seems like a bullshit interpretation to me.

She's saying "we should scrap science," not "what if we scrapped science." And there's no evidence that there's any kind of thought experiment going on.

Don't get me wrong: you can make an argument that they're reinventing the wheel with regards to math or science, but as long as western science is accurate they're going to reach the same conclusions. They're just disposing of foreign assumptions and rerunning the ideas themselves.

Then again, I know enough about the speed running community to know that rerunning the fundamentals with a fresh set of eyes can lead to some very interesting discoveries

You're kind of making my point for me. By all means, re-examine the theory of gravity, but I'm not betting on it being disproven anytime soon.

Science allows for inquiry, and theories come into vogue and fall out of favour all the time (e.g. string theory). You don't need to scrap science when it already has self-correcting mechanisms.

Yes that also is nonsense, should be decried and ridiculed equally.

Pretty much this.

BS is BS, no matter who's saying it. I have no time for people who claim the Earth is 6000 years old, any more than I have time for people claiming that shamans have magic lightning powers. If you want to prove either of the above statements, feel free to do so, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[tstorm823]

Don't get me wrong: you can make an argument that they're reinventing the wheel with regards to math or science, but as long as western science is accurate they're going to reach the same conclusions.

Unless their goal is to undermine the existing conclusions. Let's not ignore that the first step of the thought experiment is to treat science as a form of colonization imposed on them, effectively dismissing all non-european contributions to modern science. People who invent their own problems to solve are not likely to admit there was never really a problem to begin with.

 

[Dreiko]

Unless their goal is to undermine the existing conclusions. Let's not ignore that the first step of the thought experiment is to treat science as a form of colonization imposed on them, effectively dismissing all non-european contributions to modern science. People who invent their own problems to solve are not likely to admit there was never really a problem to begin with.

That exercise is in and of itself an outgrowth of that european influence they're trying to be rid of so even if they arrive at something different the pathway through which they got there would have been all the same attributable to european thought. The only way to actually do something different is to not educate their offspring and have them start from scratch in the jungle with no modern amenities and benefits, totally isolated from everything around em. Any human who is living in the modern era and attends university is inextricably tainted by that and can't be said to be apart from it because it has shaped their way of thinking, only someone completely pure, without a hint of that influence, can ever hope to achieve their aim.



Also on a more fundamental level, you can't undermine reality, you can just be wrong. Making up your own definition of right and wrong doesn't make you stop being wrong, it just makes you deluded and also wrong too. Science has built in it a mechanism for correcting itself when new information is availed to it so you can't ever undermine it, you can only ever add to it.

 

[Agema]

And Dreiko's right, it was reported on in The Conversation (an academic journal), as part of the larger "science must fall/decolonize science" movement.

1) That's a student debate society.
2) "The Conversation" is not an academic journal. It's a web magazine with academic pretentions.

The interesting thing is that if you read that piece in The Conversation, it's not remotely talking about the sort of things claimed in this thread. It's pointing out things like that the West, via its institutions and amassed wealth and power, still holds a lock over science; the suggestion being to empower and fund science in developing countries rather than poach all their brightest and best. Or the misunderstandings of Western scientists engaging with cultures they do not understand (and maybe think they don't have to) and impairing their own missions. Engaging with the way science has been used to promote racism, cultural superiority, and the acknowledging the damage this did: it cites that video mostly to note the outpouring of racist abuse in the comments reflecting this attitude of superiority.

None of these are weird, or I think particularly objectionable. But, and I'm going to be very blunt here, it is phenomenally ill-considered to grossly exaggerate your claims, and then cite information showing what people are really thinking about but instead pick up on a single student's wild claim that science needs to be scrapped so we can teach black magic as if that's the real thing people want. It's like you are screaming at us that your perspective on this issue is hopelessly and utterly fucked up.

 

[Hawki]

1) That's a student debate society.

And, what? That excuses people from being judged from saying stupid things?

If a teenager comes to a debate on geomorphology and starts with the premise that Earth is 6000 years old, should they be excused?

2) "The Conversation" is not an academic journal. It's a web magazine with academic pretentions.

Written by scientists. I think that gives it more credit than you're suggesting.

The interesting thing is that if you read that piece in The Conversation, it's not remotely talking about the sort of things claimed in this thread. It's pointing out things like that the West, via its institutions and amassed wealth and power, still holds a lock over science; the suggestion being to empower and fund science in developing countries rather than poach all their brightest and best. Or the misunderstandings of Western scientists engaging with cultures they do not understand (and maybe think they don't have to) and impairing their own missions. Engaging with the way science has been used to promote racism, cultural superiority, and the acknowledging the damage this did: it cites that video mostly to note the outpouring of racist abuse in the comments reflecting this attitude of superiority.

I pointed out it was reported in The Conversation, I didn't comment on the wider context of the article.

None of what you're saying is technically incorrect, but it's a separate point.

None of these are weird, or I think particularly objectionable. But, and I'm going to be very blunt here, it is phenomenally ill-considered to grossly exaggerate your claims,

What claim have I made that's "grossly exagerrated?"

and then cite information showing what people are really thinking about but instead pick up on a single student's wild claim that science needs to be scrapped so we can teach black magic as if that's the real thing people want. It's like you are screaming at us that your perspective on this issue is hopelessly and utterly fucked up.

I never thought I'd be in the position where defending the scientific method and knowledge would be considered "fucked up," but here we are.

So, when people pushed for intelligent design, or "feminist glaciology," when anti-vaxxers have literally cost lives, when we're told that 2+2=5 is valid, and when advanced learning courses are dismantled in the name of equity, when maths itself is deemed racist because of its focus on "getting the right answer," you don't think these are questionable positions?

 

[Agema]

And, what? That excuses people from being judged from saying stupid things?

It does in the context of people delusionally catastrophising that any minute the woke mob are going force medicine degrees to teach treating malaria cases by waving chickens and Coca-cola bottles over the patient.

Then of course the perhaps more political aspect, where certain people don't want us to think about stuff like how science was used to promote racism. And one of the ways they do that is to pretend anyone wanting to "decolonise science" is trying to make us believe that witch-doctors can cause lightning strikes.

There is another general sense in that the world is just so full of information, much of which is bluster and bullshit. So do you want to be the sort of person furthering global wisdom, or do you want to be the sort of person who assists every last bit of clickbaity nonsense they can find on 4chan and Reddit find a bigger audience? I can get laughing at that sort of nonsense. I do not accept trying to trying to pass it off as anything more than the less-than-brilliant opinion of a random young person.

Written by scientists. I think that gives it more credit than you're suggesting.

It still isn't an academic journal. Not by a long shot.

I pointed out it was reported in The Conversation, I didn't comment on the wider context of the article.

In a sense which indicated you had absolutely no sense of the context by which it was reported. Which is kind of a problem.

What claim have I made that's "grossly exagerrated?"

"Academic journal", as above.

I never thought I'd be in the position where defending the scientific method and knowledge would be considered "fucked up," but here we are.

Oh, you poor martyr.

So, when people pushed for intelligent design, or "feminist glaciology," when anti-vaxxers have literally cost lives, when we're told that 2+2=5 is valid, and when advanced learning courses are dismantled in the name of equity, when maths itself is deemed racist because of its focus on "getting the right answer," you don't think these are questionable positions?

I think what's questionable is your apparent ability to discern the level of support for and societal consequences of different bad beliefs.

 

[Buyetyen]

Sure, and I think trying to get people fired when you have no authority on the matter as a form of punishing them outside of the confines of the justice system should also be a crime but this is a relatively new phenomenon and the law is notoriously slow in adapting to these technology-based things, since most people who make laws are too old to grasp those technologies.

What the fuck does that have to do with what I just said? Jesus fucking Christ, dude. Do you seriously not comprehend the degree of difference between voicing a dumb idea on social media and committing a felony?

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Yes that also is nonsense, should be decried and ridiculed equally.

My point was that it wasn't limited to 100 people on twitter.

Also in a broader sense, people are so busy to negate things like racism or colonialism that they're tossing out the baby with the bath water. You shouldn't limit the sort of info you derive from skeletons, and you shouldn't entertain that magic shamans can shoot lightning with their spells.

If you wanna shoot lightning, it's called a taser, western science has provided us with it, you don't need magic to control electricity, and if a shaman has an alternative hypothesis on the way electricity functions and is accurate the western science will embrace his voodoo ways, all he has to do is to present it, so what are we doing here?

Pretending that a hypothetical "how would you disprove a shaman?" question means that you are advocating teaching black magic, apparently.

So, when people pushed for intelligent design, or "feminist glaciology," when anti-vaxxers have literally cost lives, when we're told that 2+2=5 is valid, and when advanced learning courses are dismantled in the name of equity, when maths itself is deemed racist because of its focus on "getting the right answer," you don't think these are questionable positions?

So, you're lumping a paper about how reactions to science differ between genders, how a philosophical argument about how numbers used in math aren't actually real (there's no such thing as a two), and how imposing a specific kind of learning style that doesn't mesh with how some groups of kids learn (caring more about the output than the process), in with creationism and anti-vax nonsense?

Like, all the "decolonize science" folks are pointing out is that western scientists...miss obvious things, and getting a fresh start with different cultures could lead to new knowledge. Archeology and anthropology are chock full of mysterious prayer "objects" (dildos), suppositions about putting knives in the rafters to "absorb sun power" (keep away from kids), and mysterious brick rings (chick holding pens). It's the height of arrogance to think we haven't missed something else along the way, so if some African country's university system wants to rediscover calculus, sure, why not?

The Art and Science of Staying Warm

People around the world are starting to clue in to what Northerners have always known: if you want to stay warm, there’s nothing better than a northern parka.

uphere.ca

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Unless their goal is to undermine the existing conclusions. Let's not ignore that the first step of the thought experiment is to treat science as a form of colonization imposed on them, effectively dismissing all non-european contributions to modern science. People who invent their own problems to solve are not likely to admit there was never really a problem to begin with.

Such as the scourge of illiberal SJW ideas meant to undermine the whole of science for nefarious purposes?

 

[tstorm823]

Such as the scourge of illiberal SJW ideas meant to undermine the whole of science for nefarious purposes?

I don't think it's nefarious. I think it's just a misguided concept of progress that focuses on replacing old ideas with new ones without proper consideration for whether it's beneficial to do so.

 

[Hawki]

It does in the context of people delusionally catastrophising that any minute the woke mob are going force medicine degrees to teach treating malaria cases by waving chickens and Coca-cola bottles over the patient.

It hasn't reached that, but when you have the Smithsonian itself stating stuff like "objectivity" and "rational thinking" are associated with "whiteness," sometimes the Coke is looking a bit appealing.

Then of course the perhaps more political aspect, where certain people don't want us to think about stuff like how science was used to promote racism. And one of the ways they do that is to pretend anyone wanting to "decolonise science" is trying to make us believe that witch-doctors can cause lightning strikes.

The first part is a non-sequitur. Science has been used for all manner of horrible things. That does include racism, but includes everything else, from weapons, to simply misguided beliefs (e.g. that cholera was caused by polluted air, not polluted water). The people who designed the pyramids were brilliant scientists, but the labourers who had to spend years on end building them might have found this cold comfort.

Second, it's not far off, because I've seen intelligent design (let's call it what it is) try to be smuggled in under this kind of guise. People can believe what they want to believe, but if one's approach to "decolonizing" science is to promote myth as being on par, then we're running into trouble.

There is another general sense in that the world is just so full of information, much of which is bluster and bullshit. So do you want to be the sort of person furthering global wisdom, or do you want to be the sort of person who assists every last bit of clickbaity nonsense they can find on 4chan and Reddit find a bigger audience? I can get laughing at that sort of nonsense. I do not accept trying to trying to pass it off as anything more than the less-than-brilliant opinion of a random young person.

Well let's be honest, I'm hardly in a position to "further global wisdom." I don't think most people on these forums are. Second, I don't use 4chan, and barely use Reddit, and I've never posted. I brought up the video because it had already been brought up in this thread, and it's emblematic of an attitude towards science that, while not new per se, has certainly reared its head again.

Oh, you poor martyr.

I'm not a martyr, but I did have to do a segment on intelligent design in secondary school. I knew it was bullshit then, the class knew it, the teacher knew it, but he had to teach it. The only gratifying part was that we got to use indigenous myth (the Rainbow Serpent, IIRC) in place of Yaweh, which I like to imagine was a way of giving the finger to the people promoting it.

So yeah, my bullshit metre tends to be low for this kind of nonsense.

I think what's questionable is your apparent ability to discern the level of support for and societal consequences of different bad beliefs.

Bad beliefs are bad beliefs regardless of the level of support for them. And the examples I cited range from genuine belief in those ideas to genuine enforcement (e.g. the dismantling of advanced learning).

I mean, let's be fair, nothing I say or do will stem those ideas, particuarly since I don't live in the US, but even from a purely self-interested POV, bad ideas have a way of spreading. After all, a lie can spread around the world before the truth can put its pants on.

 

[Hawki]

Pretending that a hypothetical "how would you disprove a shaman?" question means that you are advocating teaching black magic, apparently.

Well, for starters, the burden of proof is on the shaman, so we can start there.

This isn't as far fetched as you think. A remember a scandal awhile back where university students were "heavily encouraged" to place the date of human arrival in Oz as "time immemorial," and not to use the figure of 60,000 years.

So, you're lumping a paper about how reactions to science differ between genders, how a philosophical argument about how numbers used in math aren't actually real (there's no such thing as a two), and how imposing a specific kind of learning style that doesn't mesh with how some groups of kids learn (caring more about the output than the process), in with creationism and anti-vax nonsense?

I don't think those things are as far removed as you're saying.

First, the 2+2=5 thing wasn't making that argument, it was the argument that, among other things, was that 2+2=4 "reeks of white supremacist patriarchy." Some people jumped in later to display mathematical formulas, but that wasn't the original argument being made.

Second, I'd argue output does matter more than process, even if it's important to show your work. So when your thesis hinges on the idea that certain groups of kids are inherently suited for different types of learning, we're getting close into racialism (which is how things tend to work in Woke World - you try to avoid being racist so much you end up being racist - see the Smithsonian example for instance).

 

[Hawki]

Like, all the "decolonize science" folks are pointing out is that western scientists...miss obvious things, and getting a fresh start with different cultures could lead to new knowledge. Archeology and anthropology are chock full of mysterious prayer "objects" (dildos), suppositions about putting knives in the rafters to "absorb sun power" (keep away from kids), and mysterious brick rings (chick holding pens). It's the height of arrogance to think we haven't missed something else along the way, so if some African country's university system wants to rediscover calculus, sure, why not?

The Art and Science of Staying Warm

People around the world are starting to clue in to what Northerners have always known: if you want to stay warm, there’s nothing better than a northern parka.

uphere.ca

You've switched from mathematics to anthropology there.

Fine, yes, anthropology is riddled with errors. Those errors can be corrected over time. There's a difference between saying "this is wrong, here's why" and "let's scrap the field and start over." (Also, the knife thing was more about gender than culture, IIRC, with the female anthropologist correcting her male colleagues about the knife).

If we're using the calculus thing as an example, okay, sure, a professor in an African university (or any university) can rediscover calculus if they want. Thought experiments are fine. That's different from saying that calculus has to be "decolonized" or we need to have "alternate ways of knowing," or demanding that the field of mathematics be scrapped and started over. I mean, FFS, algebra is generally understood to have originated in Greece and what we now call the Middle East, so, what, who's decolonizing what? Greece wasn't an imperial power, the ME was (or rather, was the host of a series of empires that spread from it), so do we decolonize the Arabic/Persian part, but not the Greek part? Good luck.

It's part of what I find the "whiteness" thing so bemusing with 2+2=5, since these are Hindu-Arabic numerals. So you can make the "imperialist" argument with both of them, but the "whiteness" one? Eh...

Also, the art of staying warm. Not sure what that has to do with much. I could point out that if the whole world adopted it, there's the practical consideration of where all that fur is going to come from, and the likelihood of cultural appropriation cries, but hey, one of the perks of living in Oz is that the winters aren't too bad.

 

[MrCalavera]

I'll just say: I'm not particularly concerned about The Left wanting to "decolonize science"(???), when The Right wants to put all non-trumpists in Gitmo, burn down vaccination places and ban talking about racism.

Just so we stick to the "both sides" thing here.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

And Christians in American colleges routinely decide that Anthropology 101 is the perfect place to try and disprove Darwinian evolution and prove that the earth is 3000 years old, what's your point?

They're private and are allowed to teach their bullshit by being private.

What we keep being told "Private organisation can do what they like"

So we're reporting a thought experiment regarding parallel development in science as an authentic argument for black magic? Seems like a bullshit interpretation to me.

Don't get me wrong: you can make an argument that they're reinventing the wheel with regards to math or science, but as long as western science is accurate they're going to reach the same conclusions. They're just disposing of foreign assumptions and rerunning the ideas themselves.

Then again, I know enough about the speed running community to know that rerunning the fundamentals with a fresh set of eyes can lead to some very interesting discoveries

That was actually a panel supposed to be being done with some of the academic faculty and heads of science to discuss decolonising science lol.

That wasn't a thought experiment it was people from the Science department meeting with the activist group to try and discuss their issues and objections to science as it is now. Because that's what people like to try and do in civilised society, try to understand their opponents and find common ground. Turns out the only think that became understood from all that is just how ignorant and delusional the Fallists are but will frame any attempt to point that out as impolite and demand people entertain their nonsense rather than point out their ignorance.

If they want to re-run the ideas themselves they're welcome to. That's how Science is meant to work, you can challenge it and if you use the same rules and standards you will find the same results but they are claiming Science needs to re-do the stuff because it finding no evidence of bush magic working and them having no new evidence to present is evidence Science is racist because they say bush magic is true so it's true. It's like the old arguments from fundamentalist Chirstians that Science needed to prove God doesn't exist rather than they have to prove he does. Its the argument logic used to create the parody argument for why we must teach of the flying spaghetti monster, may his noodly appendages touch your hearts and minds.

It's indigenous science nonsense starting from the premise that Science must be wrong because they know the truth rather than searching for the truth with an actually open mind.

But, and I'm going to be very blunt here, it is phenomenally ill-considered to grossly exaggerate your claims, and then cite information showing what people are really thinking about but instead pick up on a single student's wild claim that science needs to be scrapped so we can teach black magic as if that's the real thing people want. It's like you are screaming at us that your perspective on this issue is hopelessly and utterly fucked up.

Allow me to be equally blunt in return then (not that you'll likely see it to acknowledge reality anyway but stuff for the benefit of others here)

What is Indigenous Science? – WISN.org

wisn.org

IS = "Indigenous Science"

• IS collapses time and space; our fields of inquiry and participation extend into and overlap with past and present.
• IS is holistic, drawing on all senses, including the spiritual and psychic.
• The end-point of an IS process is an exact balance where creativity occurs.
• We always remain embodied in the natural world. In other words, when we reach the moment/place of balance, we do not believe that we have “transcended.” Instead, we say that we are normal.
• Humor balances gravity and is a critical ingredient of all truth seeking, even in the most powerful rituals.

And that is just where he rabbit hole on this stuff begins before you end up about stuff about "The great overmind" etc.

To put some of the nonsense into understandable applications it means any data from any time period is applicable to any research. E.G. under IS rules I could argue that the number of people in the world is going down because I use only data for the period of World War II thus because massive amounts of people being killed off under IS rules I'd be right. If you wanted to challenge my research and show evidence of rising global population number you couldn't do so unless you were deemed to be more in tune with the great overmind than me. If I am deemed to be more in tune than you then you data is useless I am more reliable and the great overmind speaking through me means I am correct and revealing a hidden truth of reality.

Basically it's not fucking Science it's who acts like the biggest sociopath manipulating people to side with them that matters in IS not what he numbers and reality or even logic tells you.