Funny Events of the "Woke" world

Agema

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Also just wanna point out we've moved the goal post to a new parallel dimension, because the original original original claim was "it's just 100 people on twitter" and now we're arguing about scientific magazines written in by scientists and academic discourse and thought experiments and what have you.

Suffice it to say my point that it wasn't just the twitter people is established by now.
Suffice to say you evidently need to go back to school and develop your reading comprehension, because the point was made that the scientists and academic discourse identified were not saying the barking mad things attributed to them.

No, scratch that, your reading comprehension is probably fine. It's more the lazy and pathetic attempt to self-justify rather than accept that you're filling up threads with bullshit. The same pretty much goes for Hawki, but he's at least trying to turn it into a cogent argument.
 

Agema

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It hasn't reached that, but when you have the Smithsonian itself stating stuff like "objectivity" and "rational thinking" are associated with "whiteness," sometimes the Coke is looking a bit appealing.
Aren't they associated with whiteness?

I mean, not "associated" in the sense that white people truly ARE objective and rational thinkers where other races are not, but that there may be an ingrained assumption that they are, or a form of cultural pressure for it in ways others may not have. One might note for instance the stereotype of the "angry black woman" - which is perhaps based in some part in the assumption that black people are emotional (volatile... uncivilised?) Now take that sort of idea back to the Smithsonian's controversial infographic, and you start seeing what they were maybe trying to get across. The idea didn't survive gross simplification through an infographic, sure. You can disagree with it, sure. But it's not necessarily as dumb as portrayed.

But of course that sort of thing requires constructive and analytical thinking, and when you're too busy working yourself up into a tantrum, you don't see it - you're not even looking. Maybe you need to work on your whiteness.
 
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Hawki

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Aren't they associated with whiteness?
Short Answer: No.

Long Answer: The entire prospect is absurd, and manages to be on two levels. "Whiteness," whatever it is, is something that's universally agreed on to be bad, but if rationality and objectivity are associated with something bad, then it stands to reason that these things are bad. Only I'm having a hard time imagining how either of these things could be bad. Taken too far, maybe, but you could take anything too far.

That's the weird thing about the pamphlet, because it reads like something a white supremacist would write (listing off a number of positive traits that no-one has a monopoly on, and casting it as "white,"), yet I'm guessing that wasn't the intent.

I mean, not "associated" in the sense that white people truly ARE objective and rational thinkers where other races are not, but that there may be an ingrained assumption that they are, or a form of cultural pressure for it in ways others may not have.
Who actually thinks that though? Because I'll give the Smithsonian enough credit (maybe) that it doesn't, but it's Poe's Law in effect.

One might note for instance the stereotype of the "angry black woman" - which is perhaps based in some part in the assumption that black people are emotional (volatile... uncivilised?)
I'm vaguely aware of the former, the latter is a stretch.

Now take that sort of idea back to the Smithsonian's controversial infographic, and you start seeing what they were maybe trying to get across. The idea didn't survive gross simplification through an infographic, sure. You can disagree with it, sure. But it's not necessarily as dumb as portrayed.
For shits and giggles, I went back to the chart, and I still don't know what they're trying to get across.

If we're starting from the prospect that "whiteness" is bad (which is the unspoken understanding), then it stands to reason that everything on the chart should be bad, but while some elements may be subjective, most are what you'd expect from a dominant culture in any country, while others are universal. For instance, "worship of the written word." Writing's evolved all over the globe in numerous cultures, are they "embracing whiteness?" Or are they "white adjacent?" Or embracing "multiracial whiteness?" These aren't my terms, by the way. It's a microcosm of how the chart is simultaniously saying "worship of the written word" is a bad thing, while also, that "whites" invented writing. The former is tenuous, the latter is flat-out wrong.

If it's looking at WASP culture, you might be able to narrow it down, but even then, a lot of the chart is a non sequitur. For instance, "based on northern European immigrants experiences." Um, yes? People of a given culture tend to focus on their own culture and history. That's a universal. It's why if you lived in the US you'd be studying "history," and why in Singapore for instance, "American Studies" is an elective in at least some schools. The religion thing is another example, because it's this weird mix of "no shit" (as to Christianity and Judaism being the 'norm' - any survey will tell you that Christianity is a dominant religion), lumped in with "no tolerance for deviation from a single god concept." I'd argue that's a trait of monotheism in general, and I'm not the only one (e.g. Yuval Harari), that historically, monotheistic religions tend to be less tolerant of other faiths than polytheistic religions (this is true for Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and Zoroastrianism, off the top of my head), but here, it's "whiteness." And even as someone who lives outside the US, who finds its religious fervour a bit strange (e.g. you'd rarely get a politican here talking about God in public), the US still ranks high on religious tolerance compared to many other countries. Even if the chart says otherwise.

So, no. I don't know what the chart is going for. It's this weird mix of "no shit," coupled with "wait, what?", association of positive traits with "whiteness," and claiming that "whiteness" has a monopoly on these traits. It's an example of "woke racism," (again, not my term) in that it's weirdly kinda racist to anyone outside WASP culture, in claiming that such people can't be hard working, or can't delay gratifying, or can't be objective, or rational.

But of course that sort of thing requires constructive and analytical thinking, and when you're too busy working yourself up into a tantrum, you don't see it - you're not even looking. Maybe you need to work on your whiteness.
I'm too busy alternating between "what the fuck?" and laughing to have a tantrum. This is "Funny Events in Woke World," after all. I'm under no illusions that anything I write here will make any kind of difference, but I can alternate between laughter and despair in the meantime.
 
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Dwarvenhobble

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'And nothing else'?
No because there was likely interdepartmental pressure and pressure on groups attempting to study those differences.



Some of what's fed into the push too.
 
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Dwarvenhobble

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Suffice to say you evidently need to go back to school and develop your reading comprehension, because the point was made that the scientists and academic discourse identified were not saying the barking mad things attributed to them.

No, scratch that, your reading comprehension is probably fine. It's more the lazy and pathetic attempt to self-justify rather than accept that you're filling up threads with bullshit. The same pretty much goes for Hawki, but he's at least trying to turn it into a cogent argument.
Yeh, they also weren't laughing it out of the room either. That's considering it. That's seeing it as something more than just a joke as such.
 

Agema

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I'm vaguely aware of the former, the latter is a stretch.
Except it isn't. There was a guy on these very forums a few years ago who said he would not hire people of a certain race/culture for a customer-facing job because they would get angry, shout at and scare the customers.

It's nice for you that you don't seem to encounter any of these people, but they are out there.

If we're starting from the prospect that "whiteness" is bad (which is the unspoken understanding),
Are we though?

We're asking what are the dominant attitudes (or assumed attitudes) of a race that create the cultural norms for a society. From there, some people make an assumption that other races are inherently worse at those norms, that other races face additional criticism when they fail to uphold those norms or an increased burden to meet those norms, or an assumption that those norms are superior which may be erroneous in some situations.

Your criticisms thus largely stem from your own dubious or erroneous assumptions. Although I am aware that pointing this out isn't going to create an inch of reconsideration, you'll just dig your heels in and double down. I await the incoming gratuitous igorance...
 
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Hawki

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Except it isn't. There was a guy on these very forums a few years ago who said he would not hire people of a certain race/culture for a customer-facing job because they would get angry, shout at and scare the customers.
So your evidence of "widespread belief" is one person (who you can't/won't name) who said something on a forum.

On these very forums, well, Sean has pushed for the US military to remove the Jews from Israel, Terminal Blue has insisted that there's such a thing as "heterosexual culture," and Lil Devils' favourite Star Trek series was Discovery. All of these are pretty fringe beliefs, but to say that they're representative of wider beliefs? Really?

And for the record, I don't doubt that someone said the things you did (was it Zontar?), but, well...

It's nice for you that you don't seem to encounter any of these people, but they are out there.
...this. Again, I don't doubt that there's people out there who believe these things, but widespread belief?

Are we though?
The Psychosis of Whiteness (2018) - Plot Summary - IMDb

The Inescapable Whiteness of AVATAR: THE LEGEND OF KORRA, and its Uncomfortable Implications | by Jeannette Ng | Medium

Psych Prof: Whiteness ‘a Malignant, Parasitic-Like Condition’ (legalinsurrection.com)

Elementary Schools Teaching Whiteness is an Evil Contract with the Devil (steadfastclash.com)

‘Avatar: The Last Airbender’ Imagines a World Free of Whiteness - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

Critical Race Theory Has No Idea What To Do With Asian Americans | Opinion (newsweek.com)

Open Question: What is a world without whiteness? | by Dr. Vajra Watson | Medium

It took me five minutes and Google to find the results alone. The idea that "whiteness" isn't a (perceived) negative is bizzare. FFS, the very first post of this thread was highlighting outrage over an all-white development team.

We're asking what are the dominant attitudes (or assumed attitudes) of a race that create the cultural norms for a society. From there, some people make an assumption that other races are inherently worse at those norms, that other races face additional criticism when they fail to uphold those norms or an increased burden to meet those norms, or an assumption that those norms are superior which may be erroneous in some situations.
Every society on Earth has cultural norms though, this isn't a grand revelation.

And if people are making those assumptions, I don't doubt that some people do, but you realize that this would include the people who made the chart, right?

Your criticisms thus largely stem from your own dubious or erroneous assumptions.
There’s some truth in those bizarre charts about ‘whiteness’ | American Enterprise Institute - AEI

Smithsonian Debuts Utterly Absurd Whiteness Poster, But It Has Major Problems (westernjournal.com)

They're not just my criticisms though.

Again, the chart is stating that, among other things, "rationality" and "delayed gratification" are elements of "whiteness," among numerous other traits. How else are you meant to interpret that?
 

Dwarvenhobble

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From woke world

Vandalising war memorials to push people to get vaccinated.......... seriously.........


I hope this was some bullshit but the way shits been going I could totally believe this is some tool who thought this was some great way to own the "right wingers" for their love of the military
 

Seanchaidh

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It took me five minutes and Google to find the results alone. The idea that "whiteness" isn't a (perceived) negative is bizzare.
This doesn't really speak to the point you were trying to make, or seeming to try to make, at least. Not least because the point of those various articles is not to start from the assumption that (for simplicity's sake we'll abbreviate) whiteness is bad, but to arrive at that conclusion. Because it's a contested idea.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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This doesn't really speak to the point you were trying to make, or seeming to try to make, at least. Not least because the point of those various articles is not to start from the assumption that (for simplicity's sake we'll abbreviate) whiteness is bad, but to arrive at that conclusion. Because it's a contested idea.
Pretty sure it shouldn't even have reached the level of being a contested idea. Does having a certain skin colour mean you're automatically bad? I should hope that isn't one now and doesn't end up becoming one actually being considered..
 

Hawki

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Pretty sure it shouldn't even have reached the level of being a contested idea. Does having a certain skin colour mean you're automatically bad? I should hope that isn't one now and doesn't end up becoming one actually being considered..
That generally isn't what whiteness refers to though.

"Whiteness," in its original context, generally refers to the invention of the "white race" and "black race," which dates back to the 15th century. It's an absurd method of viewing the world, the idea that you could lump the entire population of Africa into "black," and some Europeans into "white," with what counted as "white" being added to over time (e.g. the Irish and Italians). I think most of us here would criticize such an idea, and move beyond that.

However, what's weird about wokeism is that it rejects the idea of doing any such thing. So "whiteness," in the context of wokeism, is...well, again, look at the Smithsonian piece, or any of the other links. "Whiteness" isn't about skin colour, it's about (apparently) ideas, attitudes, and values. So on one hand, you have "Whiteness" which is something you'd want to avoid under most circumstances, but then have attributes listed under it that one might question as to whether they were negative, or would conclude existed well outside "whiteness." It's why you get stuff like China "enacting whiteness" (per its economic rise), or in the context of the US, Asians and Jews being considered "white adjacent." It's why, for instance, Legend of Korra can be considered to be drenched in "whiteness" despite the lack of any characters one might consider 'white.'

But the original point is that if an article is talking about "whiteness," it's de facto negative, unless you're celebrating its absence (e.g. the TLA piece). So for the Smithsonian to have a chart on whiteness with some of those traits...yeah, it's weird.
 
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Cheetodust

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Are we though?
Whiteness was literally only invented so colonialists could justify killing people and stealing their land. It's not a thing. We made it up. Hence all the "white" people who are only considered white in the last couple centuries or so. Being white doesn't make anyone bad, "Whiteness" is bad a a concept and the idea of "white culture" is just racist bullshit.
 

Trunkage

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Whiteness was literally only invented so colonialists could justify killing people and stealing their land. It's not a thing. We made it up. Hence all the "white" people who are only considered white in the last couple centuries or so. Being white doesn't make anyone bad, "Whiteness" is bad a a concept and the idea of "white culture" is just racist bullshit.
You call it Juedo-Christian culture thank you

Because the West/enlightenment definitely didn't throw up a bunch of laws restricting the effects of religions in general but that one in particular... /s
 

Agema

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So your evidence of "widespread belief" is one person (who you can't/won't name) who said something on a forum.
I won't name because the person has departed and I do not much like naming and shaming board users who aren't here to defend themselves.

On these very forums, well, Sean has pushed for the US military to remove the Jews from Israel, Terminal Blue has insisted that there's such a thing as "heterosexual culture," and Lil Devils' favourite Star Trek series was Discovery. All of these are pretty fringe beliefs, but to say that they're representative of wider beliefs? Really?
Are you going to tell me there is no white supremacy in the world? You can't think of any instances at all where there might be any significant instances of racism - severe or mild, intended or unintended, where maybe white people act like they are superior?

...this. Again, I don't doubt that there's people out there who believe these things, but widespread belief?
Significant minority is enough. Although whether it is a minority is questionable, if we include very low-level aspects - I think it credible that even apparent non-racists have some subtle, low-level prejudices. Or that one of the aspects of this argument is that non-whites can also internalise belief that they are inferior.

It took me five minutes and Google to find the results alone. The idea that "whiteness" isn't a (perceived) negative is bizzare. FFS, the very first post of this thread was highlighting outrage over an all-white development team.
See previous answers by other users above.

Every society on Earth has cultural norms though, this isn't a grand revelation.
Of course. But are they racially "loaded"? And if they are racially loaded, do you think that's a good thing? If the people of Laos are racist, is it then okay for Americans to be?

And if people are making those assumptions, I don't doubt that some people do, but you realize that this would include the people who made the chart, right?
I doubt the people who made that chart cooked it up off the top of their heads. I strongly suspect they read a great deal of sociology and related topics. Again, we can question the strength of that material and apply reasoned criticisms, but even so it's not the same as pulling a random assumption out of our backsides.

Again, the chart is stating that, among other things, "rationality" and "delayed gratification" are elements of "whiteness," among numerous other traits. How else are you meant to interpret that?
Yes, the chart is deeply problematic. But in large part because in attempting to simplify a relatively complex and nuanced argument into a brief infographic, it leaves itself wide open to misinterpretation for anyone unfamiliar with the theoretical underpinning.

But I've already pointed that out. The issue being that embracing that misinterpretation in ignorance of the theoretical basis is okay for a cheap laugh, but is a form of straw man. The AEI at least understands that there's an underlying theory in there to engage with (of course due to its ideological leanings it has no interest in giving it serious consideration). If you want a cheap laugh, go for it: but if you try to transfer that to a serious argument, you risk making yourself look ignorant rather than profound.
 

Hawki

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Are you going to tell me there is no white supremacy in the world? You can't think of any instances at all where there might be any significant instances of racism - severe or mild, intended or unintended, where maybe white people act like they are superior?
First, how the hell do you jump from the examples I gave to "no white supremacy?"

Second, of course there is.

Third, of course there's white people who think they're superior. If you want an example of that, look at the January 6th riots, and the utter confidence expressed by some of them that their skin would give them a free pass.

Significant minority is enough. Although whether it is a minority is questionable, if we include very low-level aspects - I think it credible that even apparent non-racists have some subtle, low-level prejudices. Or that one of the aspects of this argument is that non-whites can also internalise belief that they are inferior.
First, everyone has prejudices. You have prejudice, I have prejudice, everyone on planet Earth has prejudice. In-group/out-group bias is a universal phenomenon.

Second, yes, some people can internalize inferiority, others superiority. Again, this is a universal, that's been documented across time and space. These aren't grand revelations.

See previous answers by other users above.
What answers? None have addressed the list.

Of course. But are they racially "loaded"?
Some, definitely, as you'd expect.

And if they are racially loaded, do you think that's a good thing?
No.

If the people of Laos are racist, is it then okay for Americans to be?
First, nice whataboutism.

Second, why Laos.

Third, no.

Fourth, if we're engaging in that game, then why not pick and choose your Asian examples. Myanmar? West Papua? China? India? Japan? North Korea? All of these examples range from outright ethnic cleansing (e.g. Myanmar) to defined codes of racial superiority (e.g. North Korea), to your standard ethno-centrism (e.g. Japan), to a mix (e.g. China), to caste systems, both contemporary (e.g. India) to historic (e.g. the Mongol Empire).

Fifth, does this mean they're enacting "whiteness?" Because that's an argument that's been made.

Yes, the chart is deeply problematic. But in large part because in attempting to simplify a relatively complex and nuanced argument into a brief infographic, it leaves itself wide open to misinterpretation for anyone unfamiliar with the theoretical underpinning.
Then what is the argument? Because no matter how you frame it, it doesn't make the authors look good.

But I've already pointed that out. The issue being that embracing that misinterpretation in ignorance of the theoretical basis is okay for a cheap laugh, but is a form of straw man.
How is this a strawman? I've cited examples from the chart, and pointed out examples of things that I thought would universally be considered positives, or aspects that are common across cultures.

I mean, what, do you want me to go through it point by point?

The AEI at least understands that there's an underlying theory in there to engage with (of course due to its ideological leanings it has no interest in giving it serious consideration). If you want a cheap laugh, go for it: but if you try to transfer that to a serious argument, you risk making yourself look ignorant rather than profound.
Trust me, I'm no longer laughing.

I looked at the chart again, it makes even less sense every time I read it, because of the number of fallacies and universals it cites as being exclusive to "whiteness." Arguably the most chilling of all is the line "intent counts." Yes, we're at the point where the idea of intent being relevant is frowned upon. And this isn't new, the phrase "intent doesn't matter, impact does" is a phrase I've read countless times, but you'll never get me to agree to that kind of moral thinking.

If that makes me ignorant, at least I haven't sold out my morals for it.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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You call it Juedo-Christian culture thank you

Because the West/enlightenment definitely didn't throw up a bunch of laws restricting the effects of religions in general but that one in particular... /s
Ain't nothing Judeo about Judeo-Christian culture. Just another big lie
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Trust me, I'm no longer laughing.

I looked at the chart again, it makes even less sense every time I read it, because of the number of fallacies and universals it cites as being exclusive to "whiteness." Arguably the most chilling of all is the line "intent counts." Yes, we're at the point where the idea of intent being relevant is frowned upon. And this isn't new, the phrase "intent doesn't matter, impact does" is a phrase I've read countless times, but you'll never get me to agree to that kind of moral thinking.

If that makes me ignorant, at least I haven't sold out my morals for it.
You've never heard the phrase "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"? I'd thought it was a fairly ubiquitous sentiment. Is it because the wrong people are saying it or what?
 

Hawki

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You've never heard the phrase "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"? I'd thought it was a fairly ubiquitous sentiment. Is it because the wrong people are saying it or what?
Of course I've heard of it. But that's kind of a point against stuff like the Smithsonian piece than anything I say. I could have the best of intentions for goals that people might find horrific, but nothing I do or say has any real influence.
 

Agema

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First, how the hell do you jump from the examples I gave to "no white supremacy?"
You wanted to talk about people not being "representative of wider beliefs", don't then complain when some relevant "wider beliefs" are pointed out to you.

First, everyone has prejudices. You have prejudice, I have prejudice, everyone on planet Earth has prejudice. In-group/out-group bias is a universal phenomenon.

Second, yes, some people can internalize inferiority, others superiority. Again, this is a universal, that's been documented across time and space. These aren't grand revelations.
So now you're contradicting yourself by accepting racism is not just a few people who are not "representative of wider beliefs"?

First, nice whataboutism.
Have a reread and think about your post #908. At least when most people throw stones in glass houses, they haven't literally just built their glass house.

How is this a strawman? I've cited examples from the chart, and pointed out examples of things that I thought would universally be considered positives, or aspects that are common across cultures.

I mean, what, do you want me to go through it point by point?
Christ no. Whilst you're choosing to not engage with something in favour of a straw man, any analysis you have on it would be a huge waste of everyone's time, including your own.

If that makes me ignorant, at least I haven't sold out my morals for it.
If your morality is based on ignorance, I have severe concerns about the value of your morality.

And this isn't new, the phrase "intent doesn't matter, impact does" is a phrase I've read countless times, but you'll never get me to agree to that kind of moral thinking.
So you think manslaughter should not be a crime?