Another thread about sexism in video games.
- Thread starter CriticalGaming
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But then again this is another example of how messages get lost in translation and stumble through cultural barriers. Kojima in his own words designed her so that once you recognize the secret reason for her exposure, you will feel ashamed of your words & deeds.
— HIDEO_KOJIMA (@HIDEO_KOJIMA_EN) September 7, 2013
Of course, no one ever felt that way, so it is likely also be a failing of the writing quality never delivering the intended impact, but after playing the game thoroughly I don’t think he was being disingenuous. As an aside I put her in the Sniper Wolf outfit as soon as it became available.
I may be misremembering, but I thought that quote was in response to people calling him out on the design. He was attempting to claim that people saying the design was unnecessarily sexualized and sexist would be "ashamed of their words and deeds" when they realized she's dressed like that because 'she breathes through her skin.' He was doubling down.
Again, it's been awhile so maybe I'm wrong. *shrug*
I think the cultural barrier is very hard to truly get over and I feel like a lot of people, especially in the US, project their own morals and values on other cultures they know fuck all about.
Remember when all those people on social media got mad that Sucker Punch would dare to make a game that was Japanese centric and inspired, but everyone in Japan was like, "Yo this is cool as fuck! Good job America!"?
I feel like a lot of that happens with this argument as well. And in a way that's okay, because our culture right now is a culture of being overly sensitive to everything that could possibly upset someone else, but it's not an attitude that's really sustainable and most people who take these kinds of stances often have contradicting stances when it is convient for them to do so, or when their mask slips just a little bit.
WoW got used as an example, and okay even if you want to use the Vanilla WoW armor as a problem that's fine. But what is the problem with characters that have no male counter part in their games? Lara Croft is sexist how? Especially new Lara who doesn't wear anything revealing at all. What's the excuse for Zero Suit Samus who's outfit is form fitting but makes sense within the art style and theme of her games.
You can look at the Korean MMO's and go, "Holy shit!" pretty easily. But if it's not a problem to them, then why should it be a problem to us? WE don't have to like it, if they like it, then that is all that should matter because they don't see the world the same way as we do. So sexist ideas based on character design likely don't even cross their mind.
So true, bestie
Well, they're trying to sell it to us, so there's that.
EDIT: Plus, it's not like this stuff is 100% accepted in their own countries with zero controversy
I still call bullshit on him for that. I respect Kojima for pushing the medium forward, but dude is way too egostical and up his own ass when it comes to alot of things. It's why I never followed him so hard.
Well of course. But they often also censor their games for the western market. Look at Lost Ark, which is an upcoming MMO/diablo-like coming in like....Febuary? Oh fuck another Feburary game, fuck me sideways with a spoon I swear. Anyway, there are several youtube video on a wide variety of Koren games that get censored for western release, and I believe several Japanese games also have done that too.
If there is one thing the West is behind on, it's education, but also it is sex and how sex is viewed. America specifically holds onto some pretty upset Chrisitan values that other Chrisitan nations do not. Tits are perfectly fine to see on standard television all over Europe for example. I was actually watching an old British episode of Kitchen Nightmares that had boobies in it. Not to mention that you can swear almost as much as you want on British TV as well cause Gordon uses "fuck" more than Yahtzee.
I wouldn't even know where or how to begin finding Korean video game news, much less accurately translated. You could be right, but judging by the sheer consistancy of their boobie armor art style, i highly doubt it's much of an uproar.
Maybe it's the "been awake for 29 hours" thing, but I honestly don't know what argument you're trying to make here. Do you want our cultures to be homogeneous world wide?
Oh, you know, death threats, feminazis, death of masculinity. Same as over here circa 2006
EDIT: I happened to be following some Korean Overwatch folks at the time, but this Kotaku article is basically accurate to what I remember
How An Overwatch Skin Left Some Of D.Va's Biggest Fans Feeling Betrayed
Overwatch hero D.va has been considered a symbol of empowerment by a lot of feminists in the Korean Overwatch community, representing how women could be lauded for their talent instead of their looks. Long before Mei graced protest memes for Hong Kong, a group called FAMERZ, then called National...
kotaku.com
The problem with that article is that is a reaction based off a game that isn't made in Korea. The point I was making was with how Koreans view the art style used in Korean based games. Though the part in another article I read in which a player was playing as D.VA and another player killed D.VA and kept trying to angle the camera up the D.VA's skirt, they called it "Skirt harrassment" and it made me lol.
Everything is harassment these days. I wonder why competitive games are even allowed to still exist. You can't mock, taunt, jeer, tease, or belittle your opponents in anyway.
Not at all. My argument was to not project your ideals upon a piece of art when you have no context or knowledge of the intent behind it. Especially when it comes to shit made in other cultures. Korean games have very sexy outfits for the female characters and yes that could be considered sexist in the West, but that doesn't mean it was made or considered sexist in it's design or intent in the culture in which the game was made. I'm sure every culture has a line, of course, and perhaps some of the shit does go to far, but it is rare for the western audiences to see or know about that.
Hell the biggest game in the world is a game 99.9% of us have never even heard of because it's a Chinese game that is bigger and has more players than every other game in the world and it isn't even close. But it Chinese only, and likely will never see Western for reasons I have no clue of.
How often did that happen and the character wasn't literally one of the most powerful witches / mages in existence?
Generally the whole chainmail bikini argument falls apart when it's pointed out in context it was mainly in games with Swords and Sandals Aesthetic where the guys were wearing little more than loin cloths and not that actually is sexualising male characters too not idealising them.
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Okay, so does that mean we can't criticize Ubisoft games because they're a French company? I'm really not getting this argument
According to Kotaku that wasn’t revealed until the game released nearly two years later -
Why Quiet Wears That Skimpy Outfit In Metal Gear Solid V
In September of 2013, not long after the reveal of Metal Gear Solid V’s scantily-clad sniper, Quiet, director Hideo Kojima took to Twitter to talk about one of his latest creations.
kotaku.com
Another take on it was that, like other hidden messaging behind the series’ continuation as a whole, perhaps Kojima did it on purpose -
Was Metal Gear Solid V's Most Controversial Character a Big Joke?
What if Quiet wasn't just Kojima's personal fetish fuel awkwardly inserted into the game's narrative, but an elaborate parody?
www.fanbyte.com
Ultimately though, how much does it really matter when the person playing the character herself didn’t see an issue with it.
Stefanie Joosten: "You know, in MGS theres nudity on the guys as well" - Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
For Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain on the PlayStation 4, a GameFAQs message board topic titled "Stefanie Joosten: "You know, in MGS theres nudity on the guys as well"".
gamefaqs.gamespot.com
Unfortunately the video in question appears to be private, so I’m not sure what it’s from.
They aren't making games for the French market. They make games for the Western Market. Korean and Chinese games very rarely get Western releases and when they do, it's an after thought so the designs of those games doesn't adhere to aditional markets typically.
And yes in a way if you wanted to criticize Ubisoft games for being culturally insensitive based off French culture...then you'd probaly not have much leg to stand on.
So...if a game is released to a worldwide mass market, why is the world not allowed to criticize it based strictly on geography? Especially if it's, say, Koreans criticizing the Korean character? How does that make sense?
EDIT: Fuck's sake, according to this logic you shouldn't give a shit that Japanese audiences loved Ghosts of Tsushima because it wasn't made for or by them
Plus, like, Blizzard is big in Korea.
Plus Plus, it's hilarious how The West gets to be this huge, homogeneous Mayo culture despite being 3 continents with dozens of cultures, countries, and more than a few languages
EditEdit, because this is a nesting doll of stuff and I've been up for over 30 hours now:
You can't turn off the click sound your cellphone makes when it takes a picture in Korea because of the prevalence of upskirt photography. So yeah, when that starts showing up in gameplay it's gonna be commented on. Glad you find it amusing.
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Pretty sure Haydee at best counts as an AA if not Indie A level not AAA, if we're going below AAA for this stuff then there's a hell of a lot of female leads in games
No it's rooted in wanting to go on adventures with the busty warrior maiden and be banging her at night when you've set up camp because you both think the other is fucking awesome.
Yeh, funny how it seems to be the Joss Whedon types who didn't learn this lesson
They're not obliged to but it's worth remembering in my opinion who the core audience who helped build you up are. E.G the disaster in the UK that was Poundlands premium furniture line............. yes you read that right the UK Poundland (Basically UK version of Dollar store or whatever it is in the USA) tried to launch a range of furniture to compete wit premium brands. It failed badly because Poundland was a shop brand built on value and the idea of some of the goods being a case of "Good enough to get the job done but probably not that much more" and value budget stuff to tide you over until you could get a replacement of the high quality premium stuff.
Mass appeal is the bland oatmeal of entertainment. Everyone can eat it and it will satisfy them enough but it will never truly be that beloved by catering specifically to a group. Just because Fortnite is a big mass appeal hit doesn't mean all games should be rushing to abandon single player stories in favour of it. Mass appeal is Resident Evil 6, appealing to the niche that made it popular is Resident Evil 7 & 8.
Game of Thrones was huge and it's worth remembering that wasn't designed for mass appeal it was HBO making a show with a big budget but breaking almost all the rules of mass appeal TV or at least mass return TV. It was a show with nudity and sex which was willing to show it not cut away so there go to puritans. It had bloody violence so there go the ones against violence and a lot of it was about politician machination which are outside of crisis stuff or major stuff like white house politic seen as boring. It was a show once described by a TV critic as "That show your weird cousin who you worry about would probably enjoy immensely"
What if the "progress" seems to be driving backwards though?
It's weird because this sort of cover up stuff seems so reminiscent to the backlash to CDUK and the music videos being shown being "Too sexy for 10 Am in the morning" or whatever the argument used to be.
1) A Feminist scholar did once suggest killing 80% of the male population
2) Maybe if they want to dispel that idea they could stop getting mad and focussing on every single AAA game that has a female character look in any way sexy and pretending it's some kind of outrage?
Because they keep turning out to not be the customers? Like happened with the hilariously telling tweet saying something like "Nintendo needs to make Zelda female for the next game or I'm done with this franchise" that happened years ago.
Sorry to interject but American Pie when you remove some of the stuff that's a bit iffy like secret webcams etc actually has an overall pretty positive message about caring for women and not just seeming them as things that exist for your own pleasure.
American Pie 1 has OZ realising he cares more about the girl beyond just sleeping with her after prom night and doesn't want to push her he just wants to be with her. Stifler learns nothing because Stifler is an asshole. Jim learns some girls very much do love sex. Finch learns sometimes sex just falls into your lap.
American Pie 2 has Jim realising there's more to life and love and relationships than just trying to get with the hottest / most conventionally sexy girl on a physical level and personality and attitude can be damn sexy too.
(I've not seen American Pie The wedding, The Reunion, The Book of Love or Girls Rule)
American Pie: Band camp is about learning to respect people and try to sincerely take an interest in things for reasons beyond sex.
American Pie: The Naked Mile is about how sex is more meaningful if you're in a loving relationship than just having sex to have sex.
American Pie: Beta House Rulez is about how to come back from a breakup and try to move on.
Like American Pie I get was sold as a sex comedy but it's really far more in a genre I'd call "The coming of age" films. There's plenty of them and many of them have similar kind of messages from Kevin and Perry Go Large to The Inbetweeners movie. The almost terrible irony of it is Sex Drive a film that was sort of meant to be a deconstruction of the genre actually uses roughly the same plot structure as many of the other films.
The simple answer is "Until it actually forms into something that makes sense".
To actually elaborate and not just seem like I'm being snarky:
The argument against the outfits seems to be either "No woman would wear that" or "but they have no agency". The problem is if people want to argue that female characters don't have enough agency to choose their own clothes in said worlds then how can it ever be argued their choices for more complex or dangerous things were due to agency in those worlds and not the fickle evil sexist guiding hand of some man making them do it? As such there are not good female characters in media as none of their action are truly their own. Thus we have to work on the assumption they do have "fictional agency" and said outfit choices would be ones they'd make if anyone ever wants to argue there is such a thing as a good female character in video gaming and present it as anything even close to an actual objective standard and not merely a highly subjective one where you're trying to make a character that will meet every possible standard to everyone somehow.
Precedent helps a lot with being able to pull that off and recognise stuff like that. I can't speak for broken controller but I will say from personal experience from a relationship I was in that yeh Broken controller is right that it does apply to some women. It's often fairly easy to pick up on the same kind of things being said in the same ways etc.
I mean there's also group 3 too who do it because they think they're saving the world / helping people too and mostly got taken in by the idea of collectivism and tribal peer pressure almost.
DO NOT MAKE ME PUT FORWARD THAT ARGUMENT AGAIN
New World?
The Secret World?
City of Heroes?
Global Agenda?
That one with the animals from a few years ago the Sci-Fi one?
One of the Star Wars ones probably?
Defiance?
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I don't know about the rest since I never played them but Global Agenda certainly had more form fitting armor for females.
I dunno those dude's armors look pretty tight. Women just have better forms overall, but not really much you can do about that.
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Its boob plate, there is no reason for boob plate unless you are going for sexy silly.