Another thread about sexism in video games.

[Worgen]

That was only a controversy because outrage youtubers needed an "us-vs-them" narrative. Same reason weirdos kept trying to hype up Alita: Battle Angel vs Captain Marvel and Sonic the Hedgehog vs Birds of Prey.

Just rampant tribalistic clownery.

Wait? Why were they arguing over the better movie and not just making the characters friends like Doom guy and Izabelle.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

That's because it was kinda offensive, as was the comic. No surprise considering who wrote it.
That's not it being swept under the rug, that's it not making enough of a splash online. It says enough that people generally don't care if people are getting harressed, but they light themselves on fire if a woman in a game isn't sexy.

You know how I heard about it happening?

People online mentioning it and me looking and seeing it happen.

It's not the job of random people online to report this stuff in publications, it's journalists and it says something about what journalists choose to cover and choose to not cover.

Also yes it does say a lot because in the past some-one going "Oh this woman isn't sexy" would be met with "fine that's you opinion" and not "OMG YOU SEIST BIGGOT YOU MUST APOLOGISE OR BE FIRED SHE'S CLEARLY THE MOST SEXY THING ALIVE YOU MEN ARE AWFUL GO DIE IN A FUCKING FIRE INCEL BIGOT VIRGIN"

I mean did you hear about the blow up from Amazon's She-Ra and how some people were looking to harass the show runners? I bet not but it was going on. Meanwhile every outlet was reporting on "Toxic Manbabies hate Netflix She-Ra"

Ah, that narrative. Oh yeah, I'm lovin' it!

I mean I'm loving watching the flaming wreckage of most of the attempts I must admit.

Accept it clearly depicts itself as grounded and realistic. One of its flaws. This isn't Yakuza or Metal Gear Solid. There was also much talk pre-release from the developers how this was based on a real event in history. Then there's the many ingame collectables meant to teach you about the history of the mongols.

Yes, and it still never claimed to be historically accurate. It claimed to e based on real events which is a long standing almost joke in entertainment to mean "Real events happened but this probably won't be anywhere close to them" like in Armed and Dangerous which made fun of that kind of statement.

Seemingly? Based on what? There were also a lot of people seemingly stanning TLoU1 that flipped out over Ellie kissing a girl in that one trailer.

Based on the number of Ellie profile pictures were visible among people doing it and even ones of Ellie kissing said girl as a profile picture.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

If you think such critique is reasonable you sound like those turkish people who thought the depiction of the Persians in 300 as being offensive, when 300 was a movie based on a comic book, and it was not depicting actual historical persians or spartans. And trust me, I know, I've been to sparta, nobody gets kicked off of cliffs.


This is not that sort of thing. It's a samurai fantasy tale set in a historic period, not a historical novel, a samurai fantasy. It's a strawman to criticize a Kurosawa homage for not being a documentary.

I think we can settle on the fact that both games got an irrational level of flack for very different reasons; albeit both of them being thoroughly stupid.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Wait? Why were they arguing over the better movie and not just making the characters friends like Doom guy and Izabelle.

SEO Highlander, the attention economy and the same reason Polygon which had mostly only covered gaming decided in either Season 5 or Season 6 to suddenly start talking about Game of Thrones .

I've said about this elsewhere before but the internet is broken at present and it's actually been mentioned in videos on The Escapist in part, the part talking about channel memberships meaning they don't have to chase trends and algorithms so much.

The internet at present works based on algorithms and internet search ranking placement is based on a number of factors one of which is how relevant the content is likely to be based on the site hitting keywords for other searches too and being found relevant to them. The best example of this I can give is remember the super screwed up weird stuff that was showing up on youtube and allegedly youtube kids too, stuff like "Spiderman saves pregnant Elsa from frozen from the Joker then Fortnite dances"? Well that video hitting regularly searched high traffic keywords bumped the whole channel up in likely relevant to people in searches meaning any search for Spiderman, Elsa, The Joker, Pregnant Elsa, Fortnite or The Joker would be more likely to return said video or it would appear high in the search result even if it wasn't the first one delivered.

Some shows blow in thanks to a mix of social media finding the show and it being shared and getting trending and publications writing about it thus some people try to present their thing as good and the other thing as bad so if activist journalists see it they'll cover the "Good thing fighting the bigots" not the "awful property that bigots support" which boosts that thing in the web algorithms making it more valuable for journalists to cover it meaning more cover it boosting the terms SEO rating and offering more "SEO Juice" to sites that cover it.

End or part 1 (forum is being weird about this repy)

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Part 2

People need to know about a show existing before they're watch it and media attention makes more people aware of it. I mean some youtube getting 20,000 hits vs some publication that has 1 Million eyes a day on the front page means one will get something seen more than another and while column inches aren't limiting modern sites the money to pay writers a set fee per thing is a limiting factor so if a publication is faced with publishing an article (as examples) about how great Stargirl is as a show vs how great Batwoman is the person in charge, if they're a bean counter, will look at the SEO impact factors / trending numbers for each and will go "Well Batwoman has better recognition and search numbers we'll go with Batwoman thus Batwoman gets coverage Stargirl doesn't. Batwoman gets more SEO rating because people saw the article and it got people talking about it thus Stargirl gets less coverage.

Oh but this broken internet system gets worse. This also applies to social media and thus your social media relevance as determined by a number of sites is based on you talking regularly about the hot new topic to get attention and views and make the site think you're worth promoting. Thus there's a whole social media reward system in place for being a certain kind of person (A Hipster) who slides from popular thing to popular thing just as it's peaking and claim to have been there from the start. How do they know where to be? Media coverage, thus vapidly latching on to whatever is popular rewards people with social media clout and attention and with that comes rewards of it's own so the internet literally has a system that will reward people pretending to be fans of something popular. As you can guess this means something will explode in terms of internet trends and SEO rating and reward meaning it blows up. And so it gets more people talking about it and more journalists writing about if for SEO.

Oh and to be clear I'm not saying everyone who comes to a franchise or series later on is a hipster. Some people just want to watch something they know will be or at least is likely to be good so it having been filtered through media and other people first will give them confidence to try it rather than watch a film or show that could be terrible and they've never heard of before.

So yeh that's why we saw Birds of Prey vs Sonic the Hedgehog playing out on social media in part because the present landscape of coverage on the internet doesn't leave room for multiple things to succeed and stand next to one another easily anymore. Worse some companies look at social media and the same trending algorithm results as press sites do too thus for while in the past a show could see itself saved or cancelled based on social media reaction and numbers.

 

[Hawki]

I mean did you hear about the blow up from Amazon's She-Ra and how some people were looking to harass the show runners? I bet not but it was going on. Meanwhile every outlet was reporting on "Toxic Manbabies hate Netflix She-Ra"

Have you forgotten that the Netflix She-Ra attracted a lot of hate due to "de-feminizing" Adora? Making her look like a boy, and whatnot? And then the Teela controversy with Revelations?

Toxic manbabies are out in full force in Eternia.

Based on the number of Ellie profile pictures were visible among people doing it and even ones of Ellie kissing said girl as a profile picture.

Oh please, the 'kiss trailer' brought the usual homophobes out in force like it always does.

 

[BrawlMan]

Wait? Why were they arguing over the better movie and not just making the characters friends like Doom guy and Izabelle.

There are a good amount that do.

​

 

[BrawlMan]

Oh please, the 'kiss trailer' brought the usual homophobes out in force like it always does.

You should have seen the LOUS II Thread on Easy Allies when the kiss trailer launched. We had a few couple of assholes going on high alert with the homophobia. Some of them tried to make excuses or lied, but it was pretty clear they were full of shit. One user tried the "think of the children" line. They all got banned for acting like assholes and constantly insulting other users for disagreeing or having no problem with Ellie being lesbian. Even though the first game gave hints of this in the campaign and then the later DLC that came afterward.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

If you think such critique is reasonable you sound like those turkish people who thought the depiction of the Persians in 300 as being offensive, when 300 was a movie based on a comic book, and it was not depicting actual historical persians or spartans. And trust me, I know, I've been to sparta, nobody gets kicked off of cliffs.

This is not that sort of thing. It's a samurai fantasy tale set in a historic period, not a historical novel, a samurai fantasy. It's a strawman to criticize a Kurosawa homage for not being a documentary.

I get the feeling that you only think things can be offensive if they're about you or your interests. Like, seriously: "it's just a fictional representation of your people, not a fictional representation of your people, what's the issue?"

Is the idea that people are gonna criticize historical fiction on the basis of its history truly anathema to you?

Though the implication that you've been alive for 2500 years is kinda funny.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Have you forgotten that the Netflix She-Ra attracted a lot of hate due to "de-feminizing" Adora? Making her look like a boy, and whatnot? And then the Teela controversy with Revelations?

Toxic manbabies are out in full force in Eternia.

I didn't forget, that's the grand joke of it here.

The people yelling and threatening and throwing all kind of vitriol at Amazon are the "This show isn't for you Toxic Manbabies" lot from the Netflix She-Ra fandom. It's the Netflix She-Ra fans mad because the new show might not be their version and give them the Lesbian She-Ra and Katra ship continuation they want.

Oh please, the 'kiss trailer' brought the usual homophobes out in force like it always does.

and brought out the shipping stans in favour of it.

I will say for the record I think the kiss was fine though I was a little iffy on the whole implication of it being done in a Church hall. As much as edgy atheist me is all down with the church I dunno it just felt iffy and hollow to see a big corporation doing something that felt very much like a shot against a certain group but knowing they probably wouldn't dare do this for certain other religious groups.

 

[Hawki]

I didn't forget, that's the grand joke of it here.

The people yelling and threatening and throwing all kind of vitriol at Amazon are the "This show isn't for you Toxic Manbabies" lot from the Netflix She-Ra fandom. It's the Netflix She-Ra fans mad because the new show might not be their version and give them the Lesbian She-Ra and Katra ship continuation they want.

Except I don't think that's equivalent. Yes, there's been some fuss about a lack of continuity, but nowhere near the vitriol over the "de-feminization" thing.

Also, continuity irritation is fairly common and I'd argue benign. Adora's stature? Not as much. Least not to the extent it went.

I will say for the record I think the kiss was fine though I was a little iffy on the whole implication of it being done in a Church hall. As much as edgy atheist me is all down with the church I dunno it just felt iffy and hollow to see a big corporation doing something that felt very much like a shot against a certain group but knowing they probably wouldn't dare do this for certain other religious groups.

So I actually kind of agree there about Christianity being more of a punching bag than most other religions, or at least, that's under the assumption it being in a church is meant to be a shot against Christians. But aren't there Christian fundamentalists in the game anyway? That seems like a bigger shot than anything else.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Except I don't think that's equivalent. Yes, there's been some fuss about a lack of continuity, but nowhere near the vitriol over the "de-feminization" thing.

Also, continuity irritation is fairly common and I'd argue benign. Adora's stature? Not as much. Least not to the extent it went.

There's literally been no info released yet though really beyond Amazon is making it and it's live action. There's already been some yelling about how Amazon will sexualise She-Ra (lets ignore for a moment the rather large volume of NSFW fan art produced showing the new She-Ra and being celebrated and liked and shard by the people where were yelling about how she wasn't designed to be sexualised).

Also these are the same people who mocked others before for being upset about the changes and potential continuity changes etc.

So I actually kind of agree there about Christianity being more of a punching bag than most other religions, or at least, that's under the assumption it being in a church is meant to be a shot against Christians. But aren't there Christian fundamentalists in the game anyway? That seems like a bigger shot than anything else.

There is a cult group in the game which would be a bigger shot too but I seem to remember from what I've heard / seen of the game they're more of a minor faction

 

[Casual Shinji]

No it was clearly an over the top, zany depiction full of absurdist elements. If you take yourself so seriously that you can't comprehend that then it's your fault for being offended.

I'm willing to give it just a smidge of leeway considering it's over-the-top visual style... but then this style is used to make all the good spartans look like chiseled, white, gods among men, all the persians as monster men, and their evil emperor a giant fancy pants gay man who has a harem of physically deformed "perverts". Oh, and the one spartan soldier who was a cowardly traitor was also deformed.

Am I personally offended by any of this? No. But you don't have to be offended to still recognize it as a pretty stereotypical depiction. And I certainly won't blame people in Turkey looking at this and saying 'Oh look, America made another movie were the white people are the awesome heroes, and the middle-eastern people are the horrible bad guys. This time punctuated by making us literal monsters. YAY.'

 

[Casual Shinji]

So I actually kind of agree there about Christianity being more of a punching bag than most other religions, or at least, that's under the assumption it being in a church is meant to be a shot against Christians. But aren't there Christian fundamentalists in the game anyway? That seems like a bigger shot than anything else.

It wasn't a shot against Christianity as the scene in question shows plenty of other people slow dancing, with the church being set up for a party not a religious ceremony. I actually had to check footage, because it never came to my attention that it was a church, because nothing in that scene in any way draws focus on religious imagery.

As for the cult, that's not a shot against Christian fundamentalism, but religious fundamentalism in general. And even then, they're depicted as people who have their own worries and want to do the right thing, eventhough they're doing really evil shit.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

I will say for the record I think the kiss was fine though I was a little iffy on the whole implication of it being done in a Church hall. As much as edgy atheist me is all down with the church I dunno it just felt iffy and hollow to see a big corporation doing something that felt very much like a shot against a certain group but knowing they probably wouldn't dare do this for certain other religious groups.

And I'm gonna say, for the record, most Christians are either in favor or don't care either way about gay relationships. Feel free not to argue about what Christians should be offended by, yeah?

 

[Dreiko]

I'm willing to give it just a smidge of leeway considering it's over-the-top visual style... but then this style is used to make all the good spartans look like chiseled, white, gods among men, all the persians as monster men, and their evil emperor a giant fancy pants gay man who has a harem of physically deformed "perverts". Oh, and the one spartan soldier who was a cowardly traitor was also deformed.

Am I personally offended by any of this? No. But you don't have to be offended to still recognize it as a pretty stereotypical depiction. And I certainly won't blame people in Turkey looking at this and saying 'Oh look, America made another movie were the white people are the awesome heroes, and the middle-eastern people are the horrible bad guys. This time punctuated by making us literal monsters. YAY.'

I mean, that's the point of the visual design, you have greek gods vs the monstrous hordes. It's not a political statement, it's just aesthetics meant to induce coolness. Not something to be taken as some sort of political claim.


It's not about where they came from, the setting is just a plot device to facilitate coolness. It's not about them being from the middle east, they were just a random group they could pick to act like the vampires or zombies or what have you. Vampires are usually from slavic backgrounds but the Romanians never act like film is racist towards them for that. Same deal here. Middle easterners don't get to be more special than everyone else and avoid having their ancestors used to cool effect as antagonists.

I get the feeling that you only think things can be offensive if they're about you or your interests. Like, seriously: "it's just a fictional representation of your people, not a fictional representation of your people, what's the issue?"

Is the idea that people are gonna criticize historical fiction on the basis of its history truly anathema to you?

Though the implication that you've been alive for 2500 years is kinda funny.

No I don't think anything is offensive innately period, and people choose to be offended due to something within them, and not the object itself.


Accurately, it's more like "it's not a literal representation of your people, it's a fictional over the top reimagining of them as cooler and weirder than they likely were, which may coinside with how the people they raped and pillaged throughout the middle east at the time may have thought of them in their magical thinking brains at the time".



300 is not historical, it takes a historical theme and uses it to make a fantasy tale. It's a pure fantasy story that uses historical themes to have some common culture relevance so it won't have to set up an isekai anime style parallel world for the first half hour of the film before the cool bros beat the weird monster hordes, cause it's an american film.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I mean, that's the point of the visual design, you have greek gods vs the monstrous hordes. It's not a political statement, it's just aesthetics meant to induce coolness. Not something to be taken as some sort of political claim.


It's not about where they came from, the setting is just a plot device to facilitate coolness. It's not about them being from the middle east, they were just a random group they could pick to act like the vampires or zombies or what have you. Vampires are usually from slavic backgrounds but the Romanians never act like film is racist towards them for that. Same deal here. Middle easterners don't get to be more special than everyone else and avoid having their ancestors used to cool effect as antagonists.

Yeah no dude, they're not some random group of vampires or zombies, they're persians, the movie calls them persians. And the persians/middle-easterners are depicted as inhuman monsters. It's foreign people and a foreign culture depicted as demonic and evil. Gee, I wonder if there's a history of that happening in the West.

And don't give that 'they don't get to be more special' shtick, it has long been worn down to a nub. America has long vilified middle-eastern people (along with other foreign cultures), because it's America that feels it gets to be more special.

 

[Gordon_4]

I mean, that's the point of the visual design, you have greek gods vs the monstrous hordes. It's not a political statement, it's just aesthetics meant to induce coolness. Not something to be taken as some sort of political claim.


It's not about where they came from, the setting is just a plot device to facilitate coolness. It's not about them being from the middle east, they were just a random group they could pick to act like the vampires or zombies or what have you. Vampires are usually from slavic backgrounds but the Romanians never act like film is racist towards them for that. Same deal here. Middle easterners don't get to be more special than everyone else and avoid having their ancestors used to cool effect as antagonists.



No I don't think anything is offensive innately period, and people choose to be offended due to something within them, and not the object itself.


Accurately, it's more like "it's not a literal representation of your people, it's a fictional over the top reimagining of them as cooler and weirder than they likely were, which may coinside with how the people they raped and pillaged throughout the middle east at the time may have thought of them in their magical thinking brains at the time".



300 is not historical, it takes a historical theme and uses it to make a fantasy tale. It's a pure fantasy story that uses historical themes to have some common culture relevance so it won't have to set up an isekai anime style parallel world for the first half hour of the film before the cool bros beat the weird monster hordes, cause it's an american film.

>Not Political
>Written by Frank Miller

>>Choose One.

My dude, Frank Miller has been if nothing else very up front with his politics and how they’re reflected in his writing. He’s an honest guy like that.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Accurately, it's more like "it's not a literal representation of your people, it's a fictional over the top reimagining of them as cooler and weirder than they likely were, which may coinside with how the people they raped and pillaged throughout the middle east at the time may have thought of them in their magical thinking brains at the time".

No, most other Greeks hated Sparta at the time too.

300 is not historical, it takes a historical theme and uses it to make a fantasy tale. It's a pure fantasy story that uses historical themes to have some common culture relevance so it won't have to set up an isekai anime style parallel world for the first half hour of the film before the cool bros beat the weird monster hordes, cause it's an american film.

Yeah, it took the brutal murderous eugenics slavers and made them the freedom loving good guys and had them fight against the ravenous inhuman hordes of the perverted and debased Persians.

For somebody who gets mad when people slightly mischaracterize anime, you're taking this pretty lightly

 

[BrawlMan]

>Not Political
>Written by Frank Miller

>>Choose One.

My dude, Frank Miller has been if nothing else very up front with his politics and how they’re reflected in his writing. He’s an honest guy like that.

You forgot that this is Dreiko we're talking about. The same person that will excuse obvious racism and downplay most of the creepy shit that comes from Japan. Trying to pull the whole "you don't understand the culture" or non-Japanese bullshit. Also, Frank Miller is known for being really racist and sexist. After 9/11 happened it really started to show and the dude fucking cracked. A guy so racists Marvel nor DC wanted nothing to do with him anymore.

Yeah no dude, they're not some random group of vampires or zombies, they're persians, the movie calls them persians. And the persians/middle-easterners are depicted as inhuman monsters. It's foreign people and a foreign culture depicted as demonic and evil. Gee, I wonder if there's a history of that happening in the West.

And don't give that 'they don't get to be more special' shtick, it has long been worn down to a nub. America has long vilified middle-eastern people (along with other foreign cultures), because it's America that feels it gets to be more special.

This relates to my next point. Insert Holy Terror. A comic that portrays all Muslims or those with dark skins in a heavy negative light. Frankie-douche wanted to use all of the actual DC heroes in this, but DC refused, hence why we got all of these horrible clones and knock off versions of Batman, Superman, etc. This image from the videos sums up everyone's frustration and hatred of the guy. Even most hardcore Frank Miller fans stopped defending in the 2010s. Of course a few cowards, sycophants, and people instantly talking out of their ass who don't wanna think or feel guilty, did not get the fucking memo. Punch a Nazi in the face! It's pretty much what Linkara is doing.

​

Thank you for talking to Dreiko and calling him out on his hypocritical and non committing arguments. I don't talk to him much at all, unless he says something really stupid. I have no respect for such a person. Especially when that person defends or tries to downplay racist assholes who need to be called out. BTW, when you read this, don't bother responding to me, I won't be listening.