Another thread about sexism in video games.

Hades

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Some of the sites I linked don't even give scores so no they really didn't lol.
Ultimately not very relevant. The reception was overwhelmingly positive. From public and outlets alike. It would be silly to ignore that.

And what prey tell were the non existent reasons people claimed to like it?
''If they think its the true game for true gamers which left politics at the door and which is the antithesis of all things woke''

That's the point. Woke is hollow.
How convenient for those already decided they are against anything woke.

The game was hugely celebrated by some as some shot against those unwoke idiot Gamers™
And don't you think the ''unwoke idiot gamers tm'' hyperventilating upon seeing the very first trailer was the cause of that? That it was seen as a ''shot'' against ''unwoke idiot gamers tm'' because those people reacted as if they had been literally shot.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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Ultimately not very relevant. The reception was overwhelmingly positive. From public and outlets alike. It would be silly to ignore that.
Kind of is when your argument in part relies on it.

I'm sure plenty of outlets don't give score too who were happy to be quite nasty because not giving a score helps companies avoid being easily picked out and blacklisted from review copies.


''If they think its the true game for true gamers which left politics at the door and which is the antithesis of all things woke''
I feel this is fairly relevant here

Everything is political.jpg

In short the "No politics" argument is basically a strawman by people who can't tell the difference.

How convenient for those already decided they are against anything woke.
No that's basically always been the standard. So are you saying the people against something aren't allowed to say and choose what they're against?


And don't you think the ''unwoke idiot gamers tm'' hyperventilating upon seeing the very first trailer was the cause of that? That it was seen as a ''shot'' against ''unwoke idiot gamers tm'' because those people reacted as if they had been literally shot.
Have you ever considered the idea of precedent and from the trailer people could already tell some stuff about what the game would be because it's what other properties have chose to do and the approach others have chosen to take previously?

It's basically audience priming at this point like specific stuff on posters

 

Hawki

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And I'm gonna say, for the record, most Christians are either in favor or don't care either way about gay relationships. Feel free not to argue about what Christians should be offended by, yeah?
Aren't you arguing against what Persians should be offended by though?

Other way around actually. It were the critics of TLOU2 which latched on to Ghost of Tsushima as the true game for true gamers, as the big alternative to woke trash, while being hilariously unaware that Ghost had in fact far more woke themes than TLOU2 ever did.
Probably true but, the game was still trashed for being guilty of everything from racist, to carying out cultural appropriation, and all the other sins in various circles.

Kind of the core of wokness right there though. Hollow tearing down of what came before with vague trappings to make it seem more progressive.
TLOU2:
Made under rather extreme crunch
That due to it and various studio incompetence nearly killed some of the workers at the studio (no really)
Made by a dude
Who many seem to feel pushed Amy Henning out of the company to make his story version
That features a character who totally co-incidentally looks like the main game director.
Said character has sex with the muscular woman.
Said muscular woman character beats the shit out of the previous games male lead
Said game directors previous game featured a strong black woman who beats the crap out of the two male leads at once.
May or may not have been a fetish thing inserted right there for people to play through in a game like how Tarantino has a foot fetish which turns up often in his films.
Sorry, but how is any of that "woke?"

That's the point. Woke is hollow.
I listed all that stuff and to many people that didn't matter because Abby has muscle so that's good and Ellie is a lesbian so that's good and diversity and a pregnant woman on the front lines proving she's not incapable of doing stuff or less able just because she's pregnant.
The game was hugely celebrated by some as some shot against those unwoke idiot Gamers™

Wokeness is inherently hollow because all that stuff I listed, didn't matter at all to said people.
Of that, I agree it's silly to celebrate that ipso facto, but it's just as silly to denegrate it ipso facto.

Abby has a muscular build? Trans!

Ellie is a lesbian? Gay agenda!

Nadine (I think) beats up Nate and someone else? Man hating anti-white racism!

It's stupid, and stuipd people will say stuipd things. Because one group of people says stupid things doesn't mean the other group of people saying stupid things suddenly aren't stupid. That SJWs may have celebrated these things doesn't suddenly put the SQWs in the right.
 

Hades

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'm sure plenty of outlets don't give score too who were happy to be quite nasty because not giving a score helps companies avoid being easily picked out and blacklisted from review copies.
Can you name some? And not those that bring up things like cultural appropriation, but those that actively discount the game due to it?

In short the "No politics" argument is basically a strawman by people who can't tell the difference.
The ''no politics!'' crowd does occasionally mumble something about not really being against all politics in video games , but only when its ''an agenda''. That's never been convincing though because who decides what is just politics being in a game and what's ''an agenda?''. Because to some decades of shooting up brown people in the middle east didn't say anything but two girls kissing in a trailer was an unacceptable intrusion of politics into gaming.

No that's basically always been the standard. So are you saying the people against something aren't allowed to say and choose what they're against?
I'm saying its best not to invent definitions for things you already decided to be against just to justify why you're against it. You're not doing a very good job showcasing the perils of wokeness if the wokeness you argue again is a fictional version invented solely by yourself.

Have you ever considered the idea of precedent and from the trailer people could already tell some stuff about what the game would be because it's what other properties have chose to do and the approach others have chosen to take previously?
If two girls kissing is all it takes to set up the alarm bells for a certain crowd then that says more about that particular crowd than about the trailer itself.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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Of that, I agree it's silly to celebrate that ipso facto, but it's just as silly to denegrate it ipso facto.

Abby has a muscular build? Trans!

Ellie is a lesbian? Gay agenda!

Nadine (I think) beats up Nate and someone else? Man hating anti-white racism!

It's stupid, and stuipd people will say stuipd things. Because one group of people says stupid things doesn't mean the other group of people saying stupid things suddenly aren't stupid. That SJWs may have celebrated these things doesn't suddenly put the SQWs in the right.
I agree the issue being a lot of it comes down to straw manning and presentation of the elements. Generally with stuff that gets called woke it makes sure you can't miss it and know very clearly about said stuff.

Meanwhile a show I've brought up in this thread has had gay characters and lesbian characters and it didn't make it a big deal that you had to know about them being gay or lesbian. It goes back to the idea of putting down expectations. I mean I probably can't link to any much of Robert Yang's games or trailers here but well you're left in no uncertain terms what you're getting and who the title is aiming for.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Aren't you arguing against what Persians should be offended by though?
Nope, just summarizing the argument. Am very anti-Ancient Sparta though, because holy shit. That goes for previous media depicting the Battle of Thermopylae and Spartans as mascots, etc . Anti-a lot of Frank Miller's politics too, after divorcing 300 from its bad history
 
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Dwarvenhobble

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Can you name some? And not those that bring up things like cultural appropriation, but those that actively discount the game due to it?
Not to hand as I don't generally check what's being said at places like ***** media / (Female Dog) Media or Mic and I have little interest trawling those places looking for stuff. I mean I've already shown some places disparaging the game for that kind of idea.


The ''no politics!'' crowd does occasionally mumble something about not really being against all politics in video games , but only when its ''an agenda''. That's never been convincing though because who decides what is just politics being in a game and what's ''an agenda?''. Because to some decades of shooting up brown people in the middle east didn't say anything but two girls kissing in a trailer was an unacceptable intrusion of politics into gaming.
It's funny because the "everything is political crowd" tend to come up with some stupid stuff too like the time they thought Five Nights At Freddies franchise was pro child murder or the time they thought the film Surrogates was a Christian fundamentalist anti technology rant.

Also shooting brown people, you mean terrorists. You know actual terrorist who are more than happy to harm innocent civilians. Sometimes with black and brown people on your team helping you do it.

I'm saying its best not to invent definitions for things you already decided to be against just to justify why you're against it. You're not doing a very good job showcasing the perils of wokeness if the wokeness you argue again is a fictional version invented solely by yourself.
Except this is part of the strawman BS I'm talking about.

Person A: I think this writing is pretty poor and it seems suspicious that every character is a mixed race lesbian
Person B: You just hate POC and Lesbians you're racist and homophobic.

This shit has been going on again and again and again just because it's fucking far easier to try and push these claims and argue against the strawman than what people actually object to. Jesus many years back I said Battlefield V played only ok and had a lot of problems I could see and go told I just hated women and needed to confess. It was fucking bullshit then it's fucking bullshit now and shows almost how little things have changed because it seems some people still aren't listening to what's actually being fucking said because some person claiming to be saving the world and ending racism told them they have to fight against these criticism and secretly all the people making these criticisms are Nazis who want to create the 4th reich or something.

I mean Jesus fucking Christ one of the main guys who was called a sexist Nazi bigot in comic books was an ex army guy whose daughter is mixed race and being raised as a Muslim by her mother. But nope apparently he's sexist and hates women and racist and hates POC because he dared criticise poor writing and kind of clear ideology based writing in America Chavez as a series. But I'm certain this will once again fall of deaf ears and we'll end up doing this song and dance again in a a few months because I'm pretty sure I've already done this song and dance on this forum a good 3 times already in various threads.


If two girls kissing is all it takes to set up the alarm bells for a certain crowd then that says more about that particular crowd than about the trailer itself.
Yes and No. It's more that the creators so wanted you to know they had lesbians in the game. Does it matter that there's two girls kissing? No. Is where the issue comes in partly that it was deemed something to focus on? Yes. It's like the idea of dog whistles and signalling to specific groups. It screams "Look how progressive we are putting an LGBTQ relationship front and centre as a main piece of our game". Little challenge for you, name a game in the past 10 years of E3 where a core part of the trailer was a straight couple kissing, no really I'm not joking see if you can do it.

The reality is that's not what most games have chosen to out out as part of their impression. The relationship stuff is there but that's not the focus but with TLOU2 they wanted people to know that was part of the focus and so pull n a crowd who care for that being part of the focus which what TLOU1 was dad apocalypse survival to an extent it's rather a tonal whiplash in audiences being targeted in a franchise in only the 2nd entry.
 

Cicada 5

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That certainly helped to reveal how the critics of that game weren't really acting in good faith. I don't have a lot of respect for TLOU2 but like the new Star Wars movies its biggest ''sins'' seem to be to take a stance(or being perceived to take a stance) in the culture war that the alt right doesn't agree with.

Which is usually nonsense. TLOU2 is a little woke but only a little. Its core message is the utterly conventional ''Revenge is bad m'kay'' rather than any woke message or impression of girl power. And despite supposedly being oh so political the new Star Wars movies don't say anything at all which hinders their ability to actually be political. This unlike the previous trilogies which had very strong political messaging.

And similarly the products they rally behind as the alternative to these ''woke'' media then turns out to not nearly be as anti woke as they'd like.



I always found that really weird. Clearly Adora was designed to just look younger rather than more like a boy. I know there was a running joke about the Quartering being angry he couldn't masturbate as much because the character designs were less attractive.
Speaking for myself, I've found that a lot of "revenge is bad" messages can be pretty anti-woke given that they essentially argue that people shouldn't be held accountable for their actions. More often than not, the vengeance seeker is somebody with a legitimate grievance. If some guy bombs a village killing all but one person, what would be the difference between justice and revenge?
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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Except this is part of the strawman BS I'm talking about.

Person A: I think this writing is pretty poor and it seems suspicious that every character is a mixed race lesbian
Person B: You just hate POC and Lesbians you're racist and homophobic.
Sounds dope. What media is this where every character is a mixed race lesbian?
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Speaking for myself, I've found that a lot of "revenge is bad" messages can be pretty anti-woke given that they essentially argue that people shouldn't be held accountable for their actions. More often than not, the vengeance seeker is somebody with a legitimate grievance. If some guy bombs a village killing all but one person, what would be the difference between justice and revenge?
Personal motivation, ends justify the means mentality, possible existence of legitimate authority, involvement of non-involved parties.

Lots of things, but considering most videogame writing still does the "blowing through and brutally slaughtering said bad guy's minions only to spare the main bad guy at the end is a Good Act" level, probably not something the medium as it is now is equipped to handle.
 
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Cicada 5

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Personal motivation, ends justify the means mentality, possible existence of legitimate authority, involvement of non-involved parties.
I guess I should have included the caveat "if the bad guy cannot be harmed by legitimate authority".

Lots of things, but considering most videogame writing still does the "blowing through and brutally slaughtering said bad guy's minions only to spare the main bad guy at the end is a Good Act" level, probably not something the medium as it is now is equipped to handle.
I don't know if this is true myself as I was talking about revenge in fiction in general. I haven't played many games recently and don't do RPGs or choice story games often, so I guess I'll have to take your for it.
 
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BrawlMan

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I guess I should have included the caveat "if the bad guy cannot be harmed by legitimate authority".
I don't know if this is true myself as I was talking about revenge in fiction in general. I haven't played many games recently and don't do RPGs or choice story games often, so I guess I'll have to take your for it.
Personal motivation, ends justify the means mentality, possible existence of legitimate authority, involvement of non-involved parties.
Lots of things, but considering most videogame writing still does the "blowing through and brutally slaughtering said bad guy's minions only to spare the main bad guy at the end is a Good Act" level, probably not something the medium as it is now is equipped to handle.
My problems with TLOUS in general and Part II especially, is that they're overly dark and depressing. It's full on nihilism and constant humans are bastards, while trying to have it both ways. Part II tries to act like it has some form of humanity, but it does not. Congratulations Naughty Dog, you just made a universe people like The Joker, Junko Enoshima, and Johan Liebert would thrive in and manipulate to their own ends.

You know something is wrong when even Japan hates Part II. And keep in mind, the Japanese genuinely love the first game. I do find it funny that games like Devil May Cry, Bayonetta (2 even more so), Splatterhouse , Ghost of Tsushima, Evil Within 2, and Shadows of the Damned have more humanity than TLOUS II ever could.
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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I don't know if this is true myself as I was talking about revenge in fiction in general. I haven't played many games recently and don't do RPGs or choice story games often, so I guess I'll have to take your for it.
In general, random acts of vigilante revenge is usually detrimental to an ordered society as a whole. Whether it's woke or not largely depends on the ability of said ordered society to appropriately dispense justice.
My problems with TLOUS in general and Part II especially, is that they're overly dark and depressing. It's full on nihilism and constant humans are bastards, while trying to have it both ways. Part II tries to act like it has some form of humanity, but it does not. Congratulations Naughty Dog, you just made a universe people like The Joker, Junko Enoshima Johan Liebert would thrive in and manipulate to their own ends.

You know something is wrong when even Japan hates Part II. And keep in mind, the Japanese genuinely love the first game. I do find it funny that games like Devil May Cry, Bayonetta (2 even more so), Splatterhouse , Ghost of Tsushima, Evil Within 2, and Shadows of the Damned have more humanity than TLOUS II ever could.
I've honestly hated modern zombie media for a while now. I mean, yes, I get it, Man is the real monster, move on already.

ED6CEA65-23D9-44F0-84B7-5FA343C1E031.jpeg
 

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I've honestly hated modern zombie media for a while now. I mean, yes, I get it, Man is the real monster, move on already.
That's the problem: everyone wants to be George A. Romero, or act like pretentious butt-fucks, because they "discovered" how cruel inhumane humanity can be. Acting like some teenager that learned about nihilism, or read Nietzsche for the first time with out much understanding. Making them think they're geniuses. It's why I never got in to Walking and Dead, and never bothered with Highschool of Dead after its first hiatus. Zombie fiction is not the only one to have this problem, but does it a lot. There's plenty of anime I can name that goes so far up their own assholes about follies of humanity, and constantly putting us down. Like these writers and directors have the fucking answers to everything, and that everyone else are either tools or mindless sheep with rarely an in-between.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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Speaking for myself, I've found that a lot of "revenge is bad" messages can be pretty anti-woke given that they essentially argue that people shouldn't be held accountable for their actions. More often than not, the vengeance seeker is somebody with a legitimate grievance. If some guy bombs a village killing all but one person, what would be the difference between justice and revenge?
A 50 minute long episode that's almost entirely a bare knuckle brawl / street fight in the desert that's so brutal it basically leaves both parties near death because each wants revenge so badly on the other and part way through the fight each is only getting back up and managing to stand out of sheer burning hatred for the other. Justice being one of those two being hung for their crimes while the other barely able to walk hobbles back to try and carry on their life. Yes this is an example from a real show.

Sounds dope. What media is this where every character is a mixed race lesbian?
America Chavez more or less
 

Hawki

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It's funny because the "everything is political crowd" tend to come up with some stupid stuff too like the time they thought Five Nights At Freddies franchise was pro child murder or the time they thought the film Surrogates was a Christian fundamentalist anti technology rant.
I agree with you there, but:

Also shooting brown people, you mean terrorists. You know actual terrorist who are more than happy to harm innocent civilians. Sometimes with black and brown people on your team helping you do it.
Except generally on average, one group of people is more likely to be portrayed as terrorists than another.

That being said, it's a minefield either way. I notice that Russia has never stopped being the go-to boogeyman with MMGs, even when it makes little sense for them to be the antagonists (as opposed to China, for instance).

Except this is part of the strawman BS I'm talking about.

Person A: I think this writing is pretty poor and it seems suspicious that every character is a mixed race lesbian
Person B: You just hate POC and Lesbians you're racist and homophobic.
Yes, that's sometimes the case, but there's also undeniable bigotry in a lot of these examples - Last Jedi, Ghostbusters 2016, Last of Us II, etc. No, disliking these pieces of media doesn't make you a bigot ipso facto, but there's a lot of bigotry-based critique. Therre's a reason why Kelly Marie Tran, Leslie Jones, and Laura Bailey all got death threats for their roles in these works.

This shit has been going on again and again and again just because it's fucking far easier to try and push these claims and argue against the strawman than what people actually object to. Jesus many years back I said Battlefield V played only ok and had a lot of problems I could see and go told I just hated women and needed to confess. It was fucking bullshit then it's fucking bullshit now and shows almost how little things have changed because it seems some people still aren't listening to what's actually being fucking said because some person claiming to be saving the world and ending racism told them they have to fight against these criticism and secretly all the people making these criticisms are Nazis who want to create the 4th reich or something.
I can believe all that, and it sucks, but are we denying that there was a lot of criticism based on BF5 based on such feelings? Bear in mind that I got similar flak from SQWs as you got from SJWs, and have been called everything from a cuck to a Nazi on these forums.

Yes and No. It's more that the creators so wanted you to know they had lesbians in the game. Does it matter that there's two girls kissing? No. Is where the issue comes in partly that it was deemed something to focus on? Yes. It's like the idea of dog whistles and signalling to specific groups. It screams "Look how progressive we are putting an LGBTQ relationship front and centre as a main piece of our game". Little challenge for you, name a game in the past 10 years of E3 where a core part of the trailer was a straight couple kissing, no really I'm not joking see if you can do it.
I can buy the possibility that Naughty Dog wanted brownie points for a lesbian couple, but if you get brownie points for lesbian couples, I think that's at least partly an inditement on society. Personall speaking, I don't think you should get brownie points for any such depiction, any more than you should be docked for them. I mean, every time I've written a gay character on FFN, I'm not doing so in the hopes of being praised for being woke.

But on the other hand, what's the bigger issue? Naughty Dog virtue signalling, or homophobes coming after them, to the extent of carrying out death threats?

The reality is that's not what most games have chosen to out out as part of their impression. The relationship stuff is there but that's not the focus but with TLOU2 they wanted people to know that was part of the focus and so pull n a crowd who care for that being part of the focus which what TLOU1 was dad apocalypse survival to an extent it's rather a tonal whiplash in audiences being targeted in a franchise in only the 2nd entry.
Except I don't think there's much of a discord between the two.

Disclaimer, I haven't played The Last of Us (either 1 or 2, read American Dreams though), but even then, I understood there was a time jump between games. So I could get the following:

a) Ellie's grown up

b) The world's settled down a bit, so people can have these kinds of get togethers - civilization's rebuilt itself to an extent.

Last of Us isn't the first to do this - for instance, Walking Dead has carried out time jumps to where civilization's become a bit more organized after its collapse. The trailer is making this clear to me, at least. And let's be honest, if Ellie was kissing a guy, there'd hardly be the same uproar.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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Except generally on average, one group of people is more likely to be portrayed as terrorists than another.

That being said, it's a minefield either way. I notice that Russia has never stopped being the go-to boogeyman with MMGs, even when it makes little sense for them to be the antagonists (as opposed to China, for instance).
Yeh it's more about who is the enemy at the time seemingly too or who is seen most as the enemy. I mean 2142 had the Chinese & Russian alliance but neither side was presented as villainous as such


Yes, that's sometimes the case, but there's also undeniable bigotry in a lot of these examples - Last Jedi, Ghostbusters 2016, Last of Us II, etc. No, disliking these pieces of media doesn't make you a bigot ipso facto, but there's a lot of bigotry-based critique. Therre's a reason why Kelly Marie Tran, Leslie Jones, and Laura Bailey all got death threats for their roles in these works.
True (well except maybe in the last case as I wonder if some of that was women doing it, which when you consider it was them who did it to Rose Leslie before it's quite possible killing father figure Joe causes some people to go off). I'd still argue they're a very tiny amount of criticism and it's like EA trying to play backlash to Mass Effect 3 and winning world company in America for the 2nd time on homophobes. It's the man covered in shit argument pretty much you just have to find the man covered in shit.

I can believe all that, and it sucks, but are we denying that there was a lot of criticism based on BF5 based on such feelings? Bear in mind that I got similar flak from SQWs as you got from SJWs, and have been called everything from a cuck to a Nazi on these forums.
I don't know how much of that there was really vs Battlefield kind of straying from it's roots. We didn't see the same outcry over female soldiers for 2042. Worse I'd argue a hell of a lot of the backlash was to the reply from the studio to "well this looks silly having a woman who is clearly an English woman fighting on the frontlines in WWII with a cricket bat and a bionic arm" which was basically "You idiots don't know history and this is perfectly possible because some women did fight so we can have any kind of female character design fighting on the frontlines" then doubling down with how the game would tell the real stories of real women who fought in WWII, then the game chose not to actually follow up on that claim instead doing the most hollow and woke thing they could and just trading out the real life actions of a male commando unit for a woman and her mother.

People don't like being called idiot and ignorant when they're right and can prove they're right. Dice could have walked it back with "Yeh we went a bit over the top there I think guys, we get it"

It's was the devs and studio trying to fight all angles though too claiming BF1 never tried to be historically accurate and showing gameplay footage basically trying to argue people being able to do dumb tuff in game was evidence the game wasn't realistic or more specifically at least giving an air of authenticity. From what I saw it went kind weird too with Chinese lady snipers when you'd think going for accuracy or even just authenticity they'd have gone with either Russian women snipers or I think at one point there were some Lebonese women fighting
 

Dwarvenhobble

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I can buy the possibility that Naughty Dog wanted brownie points for a lesbian couple, but if you get brownie points for lesbian couples, I think that's at least partly an inditement on society. Personall speaking, I don't think you should get brownie points for any such depiction, any more than you should be docked for them. I mean, every time I've written a gay character on FFN, I'm not doing so in the hopes of being praised for being woke.

But on the other hand, what's the bigger issue? Naughty Dog virtue signalling, or homophobes coming after them, to the extent of carrying out death threats?
You get brownie points for it because people think you do because we're still in what I'd say is a weird phase where LGBTQQ stuff isn't normalised so much as almost weirdly fetishized in the media like "Come see the strange and magnificent gay, marvel at their gayness and how totally different they are to the normal". Also a lot of stuff with ESG score investing groups. Thus the idea is you need to make prominent LGBTQQ characters to make sure you "Own the bigots and show them this stuff everywhere so they're forced to accept it" somehow which yeh as I say some off as weirdly sort of fetishizing it.


Except I don't think there's much of a discord between the two.

Disclaimer, I haven't played The Last of Us (either 1 or 2, read American Dreams though), but even then, I understood there was a time jump between games. So I could get the following:

a) Ellie's grown up

b) The world's settled down a bit, so people can have these kinds of get togethers - civilization's rebuilt itself to an extent.

Last of Us isn't the first to do this - for instance, Walking Dead has carried out time jumps to where civilization's become a bit more organized after its collapse. The trailer is making this clear to me, at least. And let's be honest, if Ellie was kissing a guy, there'd hardly be the same uproar.
True there wouldn't be the same uproar but then again it wouldn't also be seemingly signalling to certain groups who don't have the best record in internet groups etc and to be clear I don't mean lesbians in general I mean Tumblrites and shippers.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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So, less, and one of those strawmen you complained about
She comes from an all Lesbian dimension called utopia parallel, goes to a school that's all Latin American people and just so happens to befriend a genius lesbian and start a lesbian relationship with her. Also there is or was another mixed race lesbian character too who was also a friend of them. Oh and she can punch holes through time because reasons that it apparent doesn't feel the need to explain.