Well, you HAVE to clearly identify your enemy before you attack. Weeding people into two seperate camps makes it easier
Ukraine
- Thread starter Silvanus
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Ah, so you do think it's reasonable to dismiss a claim on the basis of its source being dogshit. Just not when it agrees with you. Roger.
Except for all those ways in which it isn't true, yes.
Nice pivot, deflecting from the fact that Mate's claim on this was bollocks.
But to answer the question: because the Minsk accords were broken repeatedly. Broken by Ukraine, by LPR & DPR, & by Russia at various times.
I don't believe having been subject of a smear campaign by Western military industrial blob atrocity propagandists makes a source 'dogshit'.
Just because you don't know (or are unwilling to acknowledge) what he was referring to doesn't mean he was wrong.
I think what bothers me the most is that the arguments are so obviously flimsy and hypocritical that a kindergartner would see through them; there really isn't any way a mentally-competent, rational adult could say this shit without either arguing in bad faith or taking the piss.
"Russia has the right to self-determination and feeling safe from outside interference" (but fuck Ukraine's right to self-determination and being safe from Russian interference)
"Imperial aggression must be stopped at all costs" (said as an attack on western countries trying to prevent another imperialist invasion of Ukraine by Russia)
"Sacrificing Ukraine (and the millions of working-class people residing there) to Russian imperial capitalists is worthwhile to give western imperial capitalists a black eye" (as if Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, Warren Buffet, etc are going to lose any sleep at night regardless of how this crisis ends)
The United States literally spends millions of dollars via the NED on influencing the politics of Ukraine to privatize (read: capture) their state-owned businesses (and millions more in other countries for similar ends) and has armed the perpetrators of many genocides, most recently (to my knowledge) Saudi Arabia in Yemen.
But sure, what they're trying to do is "prevent" imperialism from happening in Ukraine. Such noble hearts!
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you actually believe the United States is acting in anything other than its own self-interest?
YOU believe Russia is acting in anything but what they deem their own self-interest?
Why would I believe otherwise? Of course they are acting in their own self-interest.
Few, very deluded people, would claim that US foreign policy is ever intended to be against US self-interest.
But also few, very deluded people would believe that US interests are so inherently oppositional to the interests of other countries that it is better for them to be controlled by Russia.
In fairness I suspect that the missing third step involves the far right self destructing which would leave the tankies as the only party left standing to guide the nation out of the ashes.
Which is at best a titanic gamble because the far right regime might not collapse anytime soon and its often shielded from collapse by established conservative forces. And while in power the obvious first step of such a regime is to destroy the left.
To some extend you could see it in the US elections too were some factions of the left were convinced Biden needed to win so next time the centrists would have lost credibility and they could run a leftists, even if it meant giving Republicans a chance to stack the deck even more in their favor and strangle any leftist's or centrists chances from the get go.
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Indeed it doesn't. Thankfully, we can look directly at all the dogshit stuff it's done (such as its own atrocity propaganda) to make our own conclusions.
You are entirely uncritical of sources that have some kind of oppositional stance towards the US. So long as they pass on that one metric, nothing else seems to factor into your judgement whatsoever. And that's resulted in uncritically parroting oligarchic capitalists, the far-right, and racists. In fact, it's even resulted in doing the work of Western capitalists for them, considering how deep the tendrils of Russian oligarchs' money are in the conservative parties of western Europe.
You know I hate America. I'm trying to leave it. Other than the fact that I love to fly, that's why I'm becoming a pilot.
But you have to understand what people are objecting to here.
They are not coming in Ukraine with promises, compromises, and solutions. This is going to happen with shelling, bullets, and the loss of life.
I probably agree with you a hundred different ways why this experiment of America is loss because of the unrestrained way corporate infrastructure is the only American Dream being lived. But this is not a feel good moment. People. Are. Going. To. Die.
There's no way to spin that. Choosing to focus on anything but that is choosing to ignore the human suffering that will come from these actions. Focusing on one side over the other is to politicize life lost for... what, a disagreement on ideals?
This is literally life and death for a nation that we're making a talking point. I hoped to Up On High that we as a people can get that and focus on the importance of this instead of the petty in-fighting. But I've seen the youtube comments, and the comments on articles. People are gleeful that this could happen under Biden's watch because it will be a mark on his presidency instead of just a God Damn Tragedy.
What the hell are we even doing here any more?
Putin orders troops into eastern Ukraine on ‘peacekeeping duties’
Russian deployment follows decision to recognise territories in south-east will be viewed in Ukraine and by other western allies as an occupation
www.theguardian.com
Putin has recognised the Donetsk and Luhansk "People's Republics", the breakaway separatist regions in Donbas, in contravention of the Minsk Accords.
The Minsk Accords aimed to reintegrate the regions into Ukrainian control, and were signed by Ukraine, Russia, and the OSCE, as well as the DPR and LPR themselves.
This lines up with the fear that the breakaway quasi-states could provide the basis for invasion and annexation. The OSCE has recorded hundreds of ceasefire violations in Donbas by both sides. It's also very reminiscent of what happened in Crimea in 2014: Russia claimed Ukrainian aggression; then refused to comply with international observers who might have verified it (just as in September 2021, they withdrew from OSCE); then invaded and annexed Crimea with that aggression as the pretence.
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Already seeing the usual suspects on social media bending over backwards to explain how this isn't Imperialism on the part of Russia.Putin orders troops into eastern Ukraine on ‘peacekeeping duties’
Russian deployment follows decision to recognise territories in south-east will be viewed in Ukraine and by other western allies as an occupation
Putin has recognised the Donetsk and Luhansk "People's Republics", the breakaway separatist regions in Donbas, in contravention of the Minsk Accords.
The Minsk Accords aimed to reintegrate the regions into Ukrainian control, and were signed by Ukraine, Russia, and the OSCE.
This lines up with the fear that the breakaway quasi-states could provide the basis for invasion and annexation. The OSCE has recorded hundreds of ceasefire violations in Donbas by both sides. It's also very reminiscent of what happened in Crimea in 2014: Russia claimed Ukrainian aggression; then refused to comply with international observers who might have verified it (just as in September 2021, they withdrew from OSCE); then invaded and annexed Crimea with that aggression as the pretence.
This is one of those cases which I would have been glad to be proven a paranoid moron but here we are.Putin orders troops into eastern Ukraine on ‘peacekeeping duties’
Russian deployment follows decision to recognise territories in south-east will be viewed in Ukraine and by other western allies as an occupation
Putin has recognised the Donetsk and Luhansk "People's Republics", the breakaway separatist regions in Donbas, in contravention of the Minsk Accords.
The Minsk Accords aimed to reintegrate the regions into Ukrainian control, and were signed by Ukraine, Russia, and the OSCE, as well as the DPR and LPR themselves.
This lines up with the fear that the breakaway quasi-states could provide the basis for invasion and annexation. The OSCE has recorded hundreds of ceasefire violations in Donbas by both sides. It's also very reminiscent of what happened in Crimea in 2014: Russia claimed Ukrainian aggression; then refused to comply with international observers who might have verified it (just as in September 2021, they withdrew from OSCE); then invaded and annexed Crimea with that aggression as the pretence.