Ukraine

[Generals]

lmao ok

Not sure what's funny about the

State secrets like "hey, our military murdered some people and then murdered the first responders who arrived at the scene. And that's acceptable to our military and its civilian management, as no one has been disciplined for it. Still. Aside, naturally, from the people who exposed it!"

Julian Assange started a website which was all about spread information obtained illicitly. That is bound to ire authorities of any country.
And I can consider that a lot more justified than China Which sends police officers to a doctor because he dared to talk about a new deadly virus or the Kremlin preventing the media to actually discuss the current war in any way that isn't Kremlin approved. These regimes you continuously defend have taken censorship to a whole new level.

As for the military crimes, that's totally besides the point, if a crime was committed they should have faced a martial court. But how does that make Russia's behavior any less criminal? And how is a dysfunctional martial court system relevant to the fact censorship in the US is much much milder that of countries like Russia? This is part of your propaganda tactic, always diverting the discussion away from rabbit holes you can't get out of and trying to get cheap jabs at the US, even if it's totally irrelevant.

 

[Seanchaidh]

As for the military crimes, that's totally besides the point, if a crime was committed they should have faced a martial court.

They didn't.

But the people who exposed the crime did.

Cause one is happening right now, and the other got attention previously which faded away, as things will?

Julian Assange is in prison right now.

Now, sure, it's really popular to point at the evils in some other country then in our own/allies, but then that doesn't mean we should ignore things outside our own borders.

To what end should we pay attention to repression in countries that our governments are hostile to for reasons entirely independent of that repression? Especially as our own governments behave in much the same ways? What precisely is the point of doing so, other than drumming up hypocritical support for hostility?

 

[Silvanus]

I've read estimates on the impact of sanctions on Venezuela to be in the tens of thousands of deaths.

And I've read numerous different spellings of "Belarus", but none come close to "Venezuela".

If you genuinely believe the (relatively meek) sanctions on Belarus came anywhere close to the death toll of full-scale invasion, annexation, and the indiscriminate shelling of residential areas, then you've completely taken up residence in cloud cuckooland.

Not everything is about you.

In which case the reply was a non-sequitur.

If you're advocating for capitulation, then own what it means: imperialist dividing-up of the country, ending of elections, rounding-up and execution of journalists (reports are they've already drawn up a list for the latter). If the administration ends up being anything like the Putin-backed puppet administration of Chechnya, then there's also the summary rounding-up of gay people.

And then you've also got to anticipate the same question being asked for Moldova, Finland, Sweden-- other countries Putin has directly threatened. Capitulate again, to avoid bloodshed?

Julian Assange is in prison right now.

You are encouraging capitulation to a power which rounds up and executes independent journalists, and intends to do so in Ukraine if they succeed. Don't pretend you care about freedom of reporting.

 

[Seanchaidh]

Not sure what's funny about the

Your idea that there isn't the bias I speak about is precious.

 

[Thaluikhain]

As for the military crimes, that's totally besides the point, if a crime was committed they should have faced a martial court. But how does that make Russia's behavior any less criminal? And how is a dysfunctional martial court system relevant to the fact censorship in the US is much much milder that of countries like Russia?

And even assuming that the US was equal or worse or some other comparative value compared to Russia doesn't matter when are talking about Russia. Russia's wrongdoings don't go away because someone else did something else to someone else.

To what end should we pay attention to repression in countries that our governments are hostile to for reasons entirely independent of that repression? Especially as our own governments behave in much the same ways? What precisely is the point of doing so, other than drumming up hypocritical support for hostility?

Why shouldn't we pay attention to issues in other countries?

Now, you're right that it's mostly pointless for random forumers to discuss this, but is it more fruitful for you to defend Russia than others here to condemn it?

 

[Generals]

Your idea that there isn't the bias I speak about is precious.

Not really, it's just the observation your world views are entirely disconnected from reality. When you consider Fascist(ic) Dictators as more reliable sources of information than the largely free western media you can't be taken seriously.
There is most definitely a bias in Western media, but it pales in comparison to your bias.

 

[Silvanus]

To what end should we pay attention to repression in countries that our governments are hostile to for reasons entirely independent of that repression? Especially as our own governments behave in much the same ways? What precisely is the point of doing so, other than drumming up hypocritical support for hostility?

This is still such an incredibly odd complaint. As if our discussion of any political topics on this video game form are of great import. Sorry to tell you this, but your commentary about the US isn't making waves in the high echelons of the US political scene, either.

We discuss things because it's generally considered preferable to be informed on the state of the world, rather than wilfully ignorant.

 

[Seanchaidh]

If you're advocating for capitulation, then own what it means: imperialist dividing-up of the country, ending of elections, rounding-up and execution of journalists (reports are they've already drawn up a list for the latter).

That sounds like how Ukraine is already run. You think I'm impressed with elections in which communist parties are banned? Or a 'democracy' that shuts down opposition television stations? That punishes the singing of the Soviet national anthem with a prison sentence of up to five years? This is your "cloud cuckooland" democracy.

And I've read numerous different spellings of "Belarus", but none come close to "Venezuela".

That's nice, but there's no reason to focus on sanctions only in Belarus when there are deadly sanctions all over the world and the sanctions being placed on Russia are aimed at punishing their people as well as the people of other nations like Venezuela, Nicaragua, and Cuba.

 

[Seanchaidh]

This is still such an incredibly odd complaint. As if our discussion of any political topics on this video game form are of great import. Sorry to tell you this, but your commentary about the US isn't making waves in the high echelons of the US political scene, either.

Then why do you insist that I pay attention to and share your criticisms of Russia etc.? Why is your response to my criticisms of the United States and NATO and my thoughts on what those entities should do, "but Russia"? Obviously you think there is something more to it than this, something that goes beyond

it's generally considered preferable to be informed on the state of the world, rather than wilfully ignorant.

... because otherwise, you would shut the entire fuck up about things like THIS:

If you're advocating for capitulation, then own what it means: imperialist dividing-up of the country, ending of elections, rounding-up and execution of journalists (reports are they've already drawn up a list for the latter). If the administration ends up being anything like the Putin-backed puppet administration of Chechnya, then there's also the summary rounding-up of gay people.

 

[Seanchaidh]

Now, you're right that it's mostly pointless for random forumers to discuss this, but is it more fruitful for you to defend Russia than others here to condemn it?

Well, yes, it is, to the extent that I've done that. Because what I have not done is say "Russia was right to do ____". I've said the governments you have some theoretical influence over should have done things. I've said that Russia has various concerns that should have been reacted to in a fruitful manner by our and especially my government. I've given you context which is left out of the mainstream media analysis that colors the views which you are daily spoonfed. And the fact that the only way you can seem to interpret this is as a "defense of Russia" is illustrative of the point that you live in a media ecosystem which pursues certain objectives, that they've been stirring up a jingoistic narrative against Russia for the last several years, and that they have, frankly, done a very good job of it.

 

[Dalisclock]

Meanwhile, on the lighter side of the news.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

As Nelson Muntz would say, "Ha Ha!"'

Note: Probably a BMP or BTR rather then an actual tank but the point stands.

 

[Cheetodust]

Western war propaganda as you present it doesn't even exist as numerous claims you have made about it are blatantly false.

ireland's media is in overdrive trying to get us to get militarily involved, join nato, fast track Ukrainian membership of the EU and use the war to make our government look good.

The Irish Independent ran a story about how Mary Lou Mcdonald once gave an interview to RT. Waiting about 3 paragraphs to mention that it was a year ago and neglecting entirely to mention that every party of the current coalition government has had spokespeople give interviews to RT. The times are now running a story about how Fianna fail has seen a rise in popularity in a poll after a speech the Taoiseach made. The poll they are referring to to showed a 1% rise in popularity and was conducted before the speech.

The Irish media, both it's state broadcaster and it's two biggest newspapers are unashamedly pro-government propaganda and they are currently using this war to promote the government and make bizarre attacks on the opposition. Trying to manufacture the reality that the Irish people want to go to war. Probably because they know what a crisis can do for sitting governments. Leo Varadkar is set to be Taoiseach again and he straight up said in an interview that he wished he had called the last election after covid hit because he thinks he would have done better. So he's not ashamed of the fact that he is on board with people dying if it gives him a better chance at the polls.

The media are also dead silent on the fact that Government MEP's voted against investigating Russian oligarchs laundering money through our IFSC.

There is so much war propaganda going on in this country now for a variety of reasons.

 

[Brokencontroller]

Fuck Putin, fuck Russia, every single word from them is a lie. They cannot be trusted or reasoned with, not now, not ever, not even after Putin.

If you think he is bad, id like to direct you to every politician in America.

 

[Seanchaidh]

The Irish Independent ran a story about how Mary Lou Mcdonald once gave an interview to RT. Waiting about 3 paragraphs to mention that it was a year ago and neglecting entirely to mention that every party of the current coalition government has had spokespeople give interviews to RT.

lol

"appeared on Fox News" level of discourse here. oh no, someone talked to a media outlet!

To the extent that our brain worms in the United States have been imported to Ireland and caused this, I apologize.

 

[Generals]

ireland's media is in overdrive trying to get us to get militarily involved, join nato, fast track Ukrainian membership of the EU and use the war to make our government look good.

All Irish mainstream Media?
And even if it is, Irish media isn't necessarily representative of "Western Media". And what's the problem with joining NATO and getting Ukraine in the EU ? These two elements are hardly "war propaganda". And Irish media must be stupid if they're pushing for actual military involvement.

The Irish Independent ran a story about how Mary Lou Mcdonald once gave an interview to RT. Waiting about 3 paragraphs to mention that it was a year ago and neglecting entirely to mention that every party of the current coalition government has had spokespeople give interviews to RT. The times are now running a story about how Fianna fail has seen a rise in popularity in a poll after a speech the Taoiseach made. The poll they are referring to to showed a 1% rise in popularity and was conducted before the speech.

How's that "war propaganda"? It's stupid and shows a bias in favor of some politicians/parties but it's hardly "war propaganda".

The Irish media, both it's state broadcaster and it's two biggest newspapers are unashamedly pro-government propaganda and they are currently using this war to promote the government and make bizarre attacks on the opposition. Trying to manufacture the reality that the Irish people want to go to war. Probably because they know what a crisis can do for sitting governments. Leo Varadkar is set to be Taoiseach again and he straight up said in an interview that he wished he had called the last election after covid hit because he thinks he would have done better. So he's not ashamed of the fact that he is on board with people dying if it gives him a better chance at the polls.

The media are also dead silent on the fact that Government MEP's voted against investigating Russian oligarchs laundering money through our IFSC.

There is so much war propaganda going on in this country now for a variety of reasons.

Irish media looks a lot more like Russian media than other Western media than....

 

[Cheetodust]

All Irish mainstream Media?
And even if it is, Irish media isn't necessarily representative of "Western Media". And what's the problem with joining NATO and getting Ukraine in the EU ? These two elements are hardly "war propaganda". And Irish media must be stupid if they're pushing for actual military involvement.

All of the largest including state run media.

Because traditionally Ireland has been militarily unaligned. We have defence forces that have gone on peace keeping missions but we do not get into conflicts. A lot of Irish people value our neutrality and don't want to join NATO. Others (me included) don't want to join NATO while a member occupies our country.

As forthe EU, don't particularly have strong feelings about Ukraine becoming a member. Have an issue with it being fast tracked and I am always skeptical of the EU growing.

How's that "war propaganda"? It's stupid and shows a bias in favor of some politicians/parties but it's hardly "war propaganda".

It's using the war to spread red scare levels of propaganda against the opposition. Painting the opposition as aligned with Russia while the big strong government parties are the stalwart defenders of democracy. They want war and they want to make the opposition look sympathetic to Russia.

Irish media looks a lot more like Russian media than other Western media than....

... That's not really a point though is it?

 

[Agema]

I've said that Russia has various concerns that should have been reacted to in a fruitful manner by our and especially my government.

By "fruitful" you mean doing exactly what Russia wanted.

Because in the fucked up world of some of the anticapitalist / antiwar left, it's a bit like there's this strange Atlantocentric idea that only the USA and its allies have agency. Everything that goes wrong in the world is the result of what the capitalist West did, or didn't do; that everywhere else in the world is merely a victim, playing out the inescapable consequences of what "we" (the West) made happen.

It's something that people like Putin exploit ruthlessly and successfully. They get to invade countries and massacre their civilians, and be apologised for.

 

[Elijin]

Sure. Or any number of other people you could name (or who you can't because they were silenced more effectively), but Russia doesn't get a free pass because of the West's sins.

Russia getting a free pass for the west's sins is his entire position on this issue tho.

 

[Trunkage]

Putin would continue with his agenda, regardless of Lindsey Graham's comments on the situation though.

We can all agree that Graham is a fuck-knuckle, but his comments aren't really gas on this particular fire.

I wouldn't say that problem was giving Putin an excuse

I would say the problem is that any potential Oligarch coup has now been voided. Because they're sure as shit aren't going to follow some US senator.

Hence me commenting Graham has now made this a protracted war with very little ways to get out

 

[Seanchaidh]

By "fruitful" you mean doing exactly what Russia wanted.

I mean making good offers that give exactly what they wanted (that part of it which was reasonable, anyway) in return for things we might want from them that are also very reasonable and within our right to ask. Because what the United States and friends were doing was plainly maneuvering to step on them.

Because in the fucked up world of some of the anticapitalist / antiwar left, it's a bit like there's this strange Atlantocentric idea that only the USA and its allies have agency. Everything that goes wrong in the world is the result of what the capitalist West did, or didn't do; that everywhere else in the world is merely a victim, playing out the inescapable consequences of what "we" (the West) made happen.

It's something that people like Putin exploit ruthlessly and successfully. They get to invade countries and massacre their civilians, and be apologised for.

Yes, the anticapitalist/antiwar left like Henry Kissinger and realist international relations professor John Mearsheimer and the guy who devised the containment strategy against the Soviet Union George Kennan, and so on. It's all those flaky lefties, don't you know, who thought that the United States and NATO were going wrong by alienating Russia.

I'd have more respect for this idea that we mustn't allow Russia to have a sphere of influence-- that we absolutely must defend the democracy (such as it is) of Ukraine, and its sacred right to self-determination from the big bad Russian bear if that were not just self-serving, hypocritical bullshit of the highest order that the United States very obviously does not apply to itself in its conduct with other countries both near and far. And if the United States hadn't been transparently meddling in Ukrainian politics itself, pushing it in a right-wing, privatizing and anti-Russian/civil warring direction-- and driving Ukraine into its own sphere of influence, which is the real US stake in this; we could not give less of a shit about the rights of their people. We don't even give a shit about the rights and lives of our people unless it can be leveraged into a profit for some rich asshole.

I can also just imagine how the UK would react to the placement of Russian and Chinese troops and missiles in Dublin or Calais. There would be much consideration for Irish and French rights, I'm sure.