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Phoenixmgs

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Avnger

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Oh look, a new challenger has appeared to take Sean's throne for most nonsense posted. I can't wait until you go off about how the US used the COVID vaccine to brainwash the entirety of Ukraine or whatever your latest youtube video claims.
 
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Trunkage

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Oh look, a new challenger has appeared to take Sean's throne for most nonsense posted. I can't wait until you go off about how the US used the COVID vaccine to brainwash the entirety of Ukraine or whatever your latest youtube video claims.
Look, I'm pretty sure the US backed the guys making the ice castle in 2014 (I think was the year) ... but Manafort and Stone was backing the previous president. They called each other right wong nutjobs.... but I personally wouldn't call the castle people that at all. The previous president though...

So, I would say there is some truth to it but not as much as claimed in the articles. Which shouldn't be suprising. Perhaps with the addendum that the Nazis that were in Ukraine have not really been part of the government and military. The US may have been trying to destabilize Ukraine to take over by funding these groups but we know for 30 years probably
 

Phoenixmgs

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Oh look, a new challenger has appeared to take Sean's throne for most nonsense posted. I can't wait until you go off about how the US used the COVID vaccine to brainwash the entirety of Ukraine or whatever your latest youtube video claims.
What the fuck are you talking about? If you don't want to learn more about the situation and think it's a completely black and white issue, then continue on being ignorant. Are you gonna cite anything showing anything in the articles is wrong? I very much doubt it.
 

Generals

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What the fuck are you talking about? If you don't want to learn more about the situation and think it's a completely black and white issue, then continue on being ignorant. Are you gonna cite anything showing anything in the articles is wrong? I very much doubt it.
Well, let's start about the Jacobinmag's article and how they mention glorifying Nazi collaborators while Ukraine actually glorified those who resisted against the Soviets (which in some cases overlapped). The overlap doesn't make it any less dishonest from the Jacobinmag to present the move as one to glorify nazi's. The goal is clearly not to glorify Nazism but to glorify resistance against an aggressor.
And honestly this obvious dishonest bias made me stop halfway the article. and up to half the article I have yet to come across any reason which would justify the Russian invasion, as such it is typical irrelevant diversion from the issue at hand; Russia invaded Ukraine without (valid) reasons.

And the first "fair" article starts with a lot of NATO nonsense. Which is, again, a totally useless diversion as it was not NATO which was attacked and Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014 before NATO membership was brought up by the Ukrainian government.
As for Ukraine's alleged refusal to give the breakaway regions the autonomy they demanded; so what? It was a military coup backed by Russia, which even sent troops to the Donbass. Boris Nemtsov even got assassinated because he dared trying to expose just how much Russia was involved in that coup: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32703353

"But Mr Yashin, who presented the report, said Russian soldiers and equipment were decisive to securing all major victories claimed by the pro-Russian rebels in Donetsk and Luhansk.

"All the separatists' key successes were secured by Russian army units," he said."


The invasion of the Donbass and the Minsk accords was a trojan Horse in Russia's mind and since Ukraine didn't want it to be a Trojan horse there was no agreement over its implementation:


"Ukraine sees the 2015 agreement as an instrument to re-establish control over the rebel territories.

It wants a ceasefire, control of the Russia-Ukraine border, elections in the Donbas, and a limited devolution of power to the separatists – in that order.

Russia views the deal as obliging Ukraine to grant rebel authorities in Donbas comprehensive autonomy and representation in the central government, effectively giving Moscow the power to veto Kyiv’s foreign policy choices.

Only then would Russia return the Russia-Ukraine border to Kyiv’s control."



And honestly I stopped there. We already have had Sean who has tried with all the stupid whataboutism and diversion tactics. In the end Ukraine didn't attack Russia and was therefor invaded without any provocation. And since everything that you can complain about in Ukraine is far worse in Russia (democratic values, respect of human rights, freedom of the press, etc.) there is no possible reason to defend this invasion. In the end the issue is Black and White, Putin is a well known USSR nostalgic who wants to restore Russia's greatness and since economically it's a mess he's doing it the imperialist way through a geo-political sphere of influence. He got mad he didn't get Ukraine and now decided to take it the hard way. Everything he says about NATO and Fascists is all propaganda to justify his war that is only about his ego and the dreams he has about Russia.
 
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Satinavian

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What the fuck are you talking about? If you don't want to learn more about the situation and think it's a completely black and white issue, then continue on being ignorant. Are you gonna cite anything showing anything in the articles is wrong? I very much doubt it.
All those arguments have been mentioned dozens of times already. There is nothin g new to "learn" from your links.

Maidan as CIA takeover of Ukraine ? No, certainly not. They might have meddled but Yanukovych was ousted willingly by the Ukrainians after giving them plenty of reasons. And as the later free elections show the US did never really control Ukraine

Nazis in Ukraine ? Yes. But not more than basically everywhere else and without political influence.

Nato expanded ? Sure it did. Because the new countries were afraid of Russia. They certainly feel vindicated now.


So basically none of those points has much value in it. And even if they did, none would justify an invasion.
 

Trunkage

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Just want to use your points

Maidan as CIA takeover of Ukraine ? No, certainly not. They might have meddled but Yanukovych was ousted willingly by the Ukrainians after giving them plenty of reasons. And as the later free elections show the US did never really control Ukraine
Even if true, that doesnt mean you get to invade a country
Nazis in Ukraine ? Yes. But not more than basically everywhere else and without political influence.
Even if they are powerful, that doesn't mean you get to invade a country

Nato expanded ? Sure it did. Because the new countries were afraid of Russia. They certainly feel vindicated now.
Cant think of a better way of getting countries into NATO than invading a country

What the fuck are you talking about? If you don't want to learn more about the situation and think it's a completely black and white issue, then continue on being ignorant. Are you gonna cite anything showing anything in the articles is wrong? I very much doubt it.
No, it not black and white. Also, someone invaded a country. I don't care if its the US, Russia, China or the UK. Don't invade countries. Call that black and white if you want. I'd call it a line
 

Generals

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Every bit of irrelevant information trying to divert people's attention from the fact Putin decided to invade Ukraine without any Ukrainian aggression is typically Russian propaganda, yes. Same goes with trying to depict Ukraine as a Nazi infested country.
You know damn well what you're doing here. If you take the Palestine-Israel conflict topic you are doing exactly the opposite. There you never try to contextualize any events (let alone the overall situation) and just post tweets which are trying to depict Israel in the worst light possible, going as far as posting tweets about individual cases of expropriation of Palestinians (without any context, obviously). Here we have hospitals being bombed by Russia and what do you care about? "NATO!" "US!" "Ukrainian Nazi's!"
 
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Agema

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I don't think anyone would disagree that the Ukraine is complex, that it doesn't have significant problems with corruption and elements of the far right. But the presentation from certain sectors of the left are indistinguishable from Kremlin propaganda. And, ironically, have probably been effectively funded and supported by the Kremlin due to its own longstanding form of interference in Western politics.

1)
Let's take this idea of glorifying Nazis. The context here is that many Ukrainians resented what they viewed as occupation by the Soviet Union. After the collapse of the Russian Empire, many Ukrainians battled for independence, both proto-states and an anarchist collective. After these were violently suppressed by the Bolsheviks, the next shot that Ukrainians had of independence was alliance with Nazi Germany. Obviously, this is going to taint Ukrainian nationalists of the era - but that's what those nationalists had to work with due to their circumstances.

Plenty of other states have complex relationships here. The Baltic states have similar issues, and Finland also joined in with the Nazis to recover territories stolen by Russia after the Russo-Finnish war. Also, contextually, a lot of great leaders have major flaws, especially when we look back into further history. One might note, for instance, many US Founding Fathers were unrepentant slave owners. And yet few would argue that completely negates everything else they stood for, or requires us to repudiate them in entirety. And yet that is what Russian propaganda and Russian stooges on the Western left would ask of us, because that's a form of complexity and shades of grey inconvenient to them.

2)
Of course the USA "interferes". So does everyone. The BBC broadcasts around the world in large part as a projection of British values, RT does the same for Russia and Al Jazeera for Qatar. Political contacts, human development and media flows in with agendas to win hearts and minds. Let's take Ukraine: a balanced view of the influence flowing into Ukraine would reveal massive Russian efforts at every level - political corruption, media influence, in the end sending government advisors to tell president Yanukovych how to best suppress a protest with brute force, and offering direct military support to ensure his rule.

The tacit message of these left pieces is that whilst The West should stand right back and respect these countries' self-determination by not so much as opening a single think tank that advocates democracy, implicitly Russia is free to run riot. If it is bribing politicians, having pet media magnates to aggressively push pro-Russian policy, that's merely to be passively regretted and maybe one day nice Mr. Putin will develop a conscience and stop. Or he's only doing because we do it (lol). It could kindly be called naive. It becomes a little more uncomfortable when these people go further, attempt to blur lines and present what is mostly routine "hearts and minds" media that is relatively overt and benign (if still self-interested) with alleged shadow campaigns to fund neo-Nazi coups.

* * *

The stupid, misguided, blinkered and hopelessly entrenched sector of the Western left has spent so long railing against the capitalist system that its got itself hopelessly stuck. They are as prime an example as it gets of a rigid, Manichean notion of good and bad - and "we" (The West) are the bad guys. This idea of "oh, it's complicated" is a truism that has the real function of disguising their inability to effectively process the human right abuses and rampant aggression of authoritarian, non-Western state actors opposed to the USA and its allies.
 

Silvanus

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They have a history in hospital destruction.
They got away with that too. Russia is just full evil now.
According to the WHO, there have been 18 verified Russian attacks on health facilities and personnel so far. There were actually 3 hospitals targeted just on Wednesday.

What's the aim here? Destroy facilities that may patch up Ukrainian soldiers in the current conflict? Or go for targets intended to destroy Ukrainian morale?
 

Agema

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What's the aim here? Destroy facilities that may patch up Ukrainian soldiers in the current conflict? Or go for targets intended to destroy Ukrainian morale?
Attempting to bomb populations into subservience has a long history of not working very well. There's barely a single country that folded in WW2 through this tactic. The closest is probably the Netherlands and Belgium, although their situation was already militarily hopeless at the point the threat to trash their cities was made.

Where it does arguably work is where destruction and killing can utterly brutalise a population so badly that it shatters them. Or as the saying goes "They make a desert and call it peace".

The other strategy here might be that the objective is a punishment beating. Acceptance that if controlling Ukraine is not possible, it a) can be paralysed by having to spend decades rebuilding, and b) will steer to neutrality out of fear of another destructive conflict.

__________________
Edit: There is of course another possibility, there there is no real aim. The Russians have failed to achieve the intended quick win. After that, they have little idea how else to achieve their objectives but brute force, and so are pretty much indiscriminately pouring in ammo out of frustration and lack of other ideas or options.

Russia's problem here is that it needs a win, or something it can credibly pass off as a win to its populace, because the humilation of a failure is unthinkable. It's essentially gone all in, sacrificing reputation and economy for military power. If the military fails, it's just told the world and its people that it has nothing at all. It could be Russia's Suez Crisis: the definitive end of its ability to pass itself off as a major power. More worrying for Putin, he would have to face up to a domestic accounting, and I suspect he could be so damaged that he would be toppled.
 
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Satinavian

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The stupid, misguided, blinkered and hopelessly entrenched sector of the Western left has spent so long railing against the capitalist system that its got itself hopelessly stuck. They are as prime an example as it gets of a rigid, Manichean notion of good and bad - and "we" (The West) are the bad guys. This idea of "oh, it's complicated" is a truism that has the real function of disguising their inability to effectively process the human right abuses and rampant aggression of authoritarian, non-Western state actors opposed to the USA and its allies.
Interestingly the Ukrainian invasion is so hard to justify that this time a good part if not the majority of the Russia friendly segment of the Left saw the need to admit having been wrong and distance themself from Putin. That has never happened before, not with Georgia, not with the Crimea.
 
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Thaluikhain

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Attempting to bomb populations into subservience has a long history of not working very well. There's barely a single country that folded in WW2 through this tactic. The closest is probably the Netherlands and Belgium, although their situation was already militarily hopeless at the point the threat to trash their cities was made.

Where it does arguably work is where destruction and killing can utterly brutalise a population so badly that it shatters them. Or as the saying goes "They make a desert and call it peace".
Well, you could argue that it played a major part in ending the Japanese government determination to get better terms to end the war, though here were of course other factors, such as the USSR getting involved.
 

Terminal Blue

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Every bit of irrelevant information trying to divert people's attention from the fact Putin decided to invade Ukraine without any Ukrainian aggression is typically Russian propaganda, yes. Same goes with trying to depict Ukraine as a Nazi infested country.
Ukraine is a Nazi infested country.

Most countries in eastern Europe have a Nazi problem. The problem which @Seanchaidh is glossing over in the interests of preserving this simplistic little struggle between evil US imperialists and their neo-Nazis minions vs. plucky Russian freedom fighters is that Russia is also infested with Nazis.

In fact, not only does Russia have a Nazi problem, but it has a government that is extremely sympathetic to neo-Nazis and actively carrying out fascist policies. Blatant imperialism towards its neighbours is a manifestation of those same fascist tendencies that are deeply ingrained into Russia's current government.

Most of us, I think, are perfectly capable of appreciating that this situation is complex and lacking in moral clarity. Seanchaidh's problem isn't that they think this situation is complex, it's that they're practically the only person in this thread who doesn't think the situation is complex.

What's the aim here? Destroy facilities that may patch up Ukrainian soldiers in the current conflict? Or go for targets intended to destroy Ukrainian morale?
Yeah, I remember when they were dropping fuel air bombs on residential areas in Chechnya. Fascists gonna fash.
 
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Generals

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Ukraine is a Nazi infested country.

Most countries in eastern Europe have a Nazi problem. The problem which @Seanchaidh is glossing over in the interests of preserving this simplistic little struggle between evil US imperialists and their neo-Nazis minions vs. plucky Russian freedom fighters is that Russia is also infested with Nazis.

In fact, not only does Russia have a Nazi problem, but it has a government that is extremely sympathetic to neo-Nazis and actively carrying out fascist policies. Blatant imperialism towards its neighbours is a manifestation of those same fascist tendencies that are deeply ingrained into Russia's current government.

Most of us, I think, are perfectly capable of appreciating that this situation is complex and lacking in moral clarity. Seanchaidh's problem isn't that they think this situation is complex, it's that they're practically the only person in this thread who doesn't think the situation is complex.
Well yes there are Neo Nazis in Ukraine, and just like in many Eastern European countries the amount is higher than one would want. However the point of the pro Russian propaganda is to make it look like Ukraine is a huge outlier. Which it is not. The only element for which it is somewhat an outlier is the fact they incorporated a Neo Nazi infested militia in their national guard. But this was mainly a move motivated by desperation. It's the Russian invasion which forced Ukraine to incorporate as many groups willing to fight against the Russian invaders (in 2014). And even if it wasn't motivated by desperation on this aspect Russia is the last one that should give them a lesson considering Wagner is not much better than Azov.